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Atmospheric CO2 has gone up 20% since 1960

the graphs clearly show a longer term trend of temperature leading the way down with CO2 slowly following and this defies logic or requires another significant forcing.
Albedo and colder oceans..one changes the radiative balance - the other reduces the C02.
Also loss of humidity leverages the downward trend just as gain in water vapour leverages the positive trends.
I'ts no coincidence the interior of Antarctica is dry as well as cold. They reinforce.

If we were to paint all the roofs and highways white what would happen??
 
Start with the virial theorum and it's application to star size and evolution, get an understanding of "optical depth", move to the concept of a max temperature (nothing on our planet seems to go above 22C). Well, that's where I started, anyway. Lots of new material since then.

So, if I understand this properly, for a given planet/atmosphere combination, there is some equilibrium point about which the system oscillates, and you are unlikely to get "runaway" from the equilibrium, either hot or cold?

And keeping in mind his assumptions, he concludes:

"Considering the magnitude of the observed global average surface temperature rise and the consequences of the new greenhouse equations,the increased atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations must not be the reason
of global warming."
 
Gort you really ought not to post things you know nothing about, because you really make yourself look like an idiot.

For example:

By definition there is always gain in a positive feedback loop.

Open loop gain can be any number from –infinity to -infinity, and it’s only part of a feedback loop. You are apparently confusing open loop gain with the closed loop properties of a positive feedback loop which tells me you don’t know what open loop gain is to begin with.

There is always a limiting value.

Mathematically, no there isn’t. In practice you are limited by the energy you can supply your amplifier, in climate of course there is no additional energy coming into the system beyond the input.

Non-linearity is not synonamous with tipping point.

A tipping point is one example of a non-linearity.

Removal of an input forcing from a system with positive feedback does not guaranty that the system will return to its previous state by any stretch of the imagination.

For an LTI system, or one that can be approximated as one it most certainly does. As pointed out in my previous posts this may not be true for a non-linear system.

In this limited scenario, application and removal of a forcing do not have the same result.


Flat out wrong, and a stunning example of not even knowing what a linear system is.
 
Albedo and colder oceans..one changes the radiative balance - the other reduces the C02.
Also loss of humidity leverages the downward trend just as gain in water vapour leverages the positive trends.
I'ts no coincidence the interior of Antarctica is dry as well as cold. They reinforce.

If we were to paint all the roofs and highways white what would happen??
Nonsense. What's wrong with (on these timescales):

More solar -> Hotter -> more plants, more CO2 lagging effect
Less Solar -> Colder --> less plants, less CO2 lagging effect
 
Has anyone ever done the calculations to see if the increase in CO2 is linked to the fact that 6 billion monkeys are on this planet exhaling it everyday?

-I'm sorry, apes.
 
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Plants take CO2, extract the O2, combine the C with some other stuff to grow and store energy.
Animals eat the plants, combine the C with O2 and exhale it.

Net change in atmospheric CO2…
Zero
 
Plants take CO2, extract the O2, combine the C with some other stuff to grow and store energy.
Animals eat the plants, combine the C with O2 and exhale it.

Net change in atmospheric CO2…
Zero

So as stated, the process only works on animal exhaled CO2? How's that?
 
well, my final...FINAL question is:

are we SURE that the CO2 increases temperature, and not the reverse?

convince me of that, and I am sold.

Both.

We are sure that increased temperatures, by themselves, increase atmospheric CO2 concentrations. CO2 solubility in water is inversely related to temperature. As temperature goes up, the oceans can hold less CO2 in solution and more is released into the atmosphere. As temperatures go down, the oceans can hold more CO2 and CO2 is absorbed from the atmosphere into the oceans. The relationship is not linear, however, and CO2 emission or uptake by the oceans is a slow process.

As far as the ice core data and the causal relationship between CO2 and temperature, the CO2 increases happened after the temperature increases, by roughly 800 years. That hardly implies causality, at least in that case. It implies that temperature changes have historically been caused by other factors, and that those temperature changes themselves caused outgassing or absorption of CO2 by the oceans.

We are fairly confident that increased CO2 in the atmosphere will increase temperatures; the real question is how much. A doubling of CO2 concentrations, by itself (meaning no other feedbacks in response), will increase temperatures by roughly 1.2 degrees C, assuming no water vapor in the atmosphere. Each further doubling of CO2 will increase temperatures by roughly the same amount. It is essentially a logarithmic function. It requires greater and greater increases in CO2 to produce the same temperature increase. Think of it as a tinted sheet of glass that absorbs 20% of the light that hits it. The first sheet will absorb 20% of the original light. If you put a second sheet behind it, that sheet will absorb 20% of the light that hits it, which is only 80% of the original light (because the first sheet absorbed 20% of it). The two sheets together absorb (1.0 * 0.2) 20% + (0.8 * 0.2) 16% = 36%. Adding a third sheet causes (1.0 * 0.2) 20% + (0.8 * 0.2) 16% + (0.64 * 0.2) 12.8% = 48.8%. Each additional sheet of tinted glass added absorbs less and less of the original incident light. And you can never absorb more than 100% of the original incident light. Here's how it playes out for CO2, with water vapor accounted for:

co2greenhouse-X2.png


The real questions are about how water vapor influences the temperature increases caused by CO2 and how it influences the feedbacks. How big are they? Are they positive or negative? Many of the models assume positive feedbacks, and quite large positive feedbacks. Many of the models assume full absorptivity of CO2 in the atmosphere in spite of water vapor absorbing the same wavelengths of IR light that CO2 does:
Atmospheric_Transmission.png


This means that some of the ~1.2 degree C temperature increase that would occur due to CO2 increases won't occur because water is already absorbing some of the IR spectrum that would be absorbed by the added CO2.

After figuring out how much warming CO2 increases will cause cirectly, the warming itself changes some of the climate variables. Cloud cover, water vapor, and other things change as a result of the temperature changes caused by CO2. These changes can themselves change the temperature and are referred to as feedbacks. As far as feedbacks go, the big feedbacks are water vapor in the air and changes in cloud cover. This is a very complicated issue, and where most of the disagreement lies. All of the models assume very large, positive feedbacks several times larger than the initial change caused by increased CO2.

It is assumed that increasing temperatures will increase the amount of water vapor in the air, and the water will absorb even more IR light along a significantly broader spectrum than CO2. The evidence either way is pretty sparse at the moment, but we have so far not seen the increases in water vapor that have been modelled, although this could simply be a lag issue.

Decreased low level cloud cover is associated with warmer temperatures. Modellers have interpreted this as meaning that warmer temperatures cause decreased low level cloud cover, and have added this a further positive feedback in their models. Many people believe the modellers have the causation reversed; that reduced low level cloud cover causes the increase in temperature, not the other way around.

The real argument isn't over whether increased atmospheric CO2 levels will cause warming, but how much warming is caused by increases in CO2, how much of the warming we have experienced is due to CO2 and how much is due to other natural variations, and more specifically, whether CO2 caused temperature increases will be catastrophic and require a fundamental re-ordering of energy production and usage throughout the world.
 
As far as feedbacks go, the big feedbacks are water vapor in the air and changes in cloud cover.

Don't forget albedo and methane and latent heat in the cryosphere and the ocean..lots of complicating factors....

The planetary response of a highly iced earth versus one with little ice cover will be very different.
 
So as stated, the process only works on animal exhaled CO2?

How on earth do you arrive at that conclusion? Rather, you have it backwards. All the CO2 exhaled by animals came from the atmosphere in the first place so it can't change atmospheric CO2 without violating conservation of mass.
 
All the CO2 exhaled by animals came from the atmosphere in the first place so it can't change atmospheric CO2 without violating conservation of mass.

Are you sure? Conservation of mass of what? The atmosphere? The earth system as a whole?
 
...... It is assumed that increasing temperatures will increase the amount of water vapor in the air, and the water will absorb even more IR light along a significantly broader spectrum than CO2. The evidence either way is pretty sparse at the moment, but we have so far not seen the increases in water vapor that have been modelled, although this could simply be a lag issue. .....
Probably because although they want to use this effect to show an increase in the retention of kinetic energy on the planet, they do not want to discuss the fact that the broadening of the IR bands similarly also occurs at the point of radiation into space. So more CO2, more kinetic energy, broader bands, more kinetic energy retained, broader bands way up high, more kinetic energy released to space....

Which pretty much destroys that Warmer argument....
 
Plants take CO2, extract the O2, combine the C with some other stuff to grow and store energy.
Animals eat the plants, combine the C with O2 and exhale it.

Net change in atmospheric CO2…
Zero

Actually if we’re specifically talking about humans, we tend to bury the solid part of our faecal matter and some of that will become incorporated into soil carbon so the balance is probably slightly negative over the medium term. But that’s just incidental - your basic hypothesis is correct.

Now if we could just stop people burning all those fossil hydrocarbons!!!
 
But wouldn't the feedback proposed by Miskolczi operate on any warming forcing?

Meaning any warming that would cause the icecaps to melt would be impossible.

Wait, they've melted in the past due to normal climatic variations from obital forcings.

You draw the conclusion.

I believe that there is an even more obvious problem with Miskolczi's theory: it appears to contradict what we know about phase changes. Miskolczi's theory requires the concentration of water vapor in the atmosphere to be controlled by the concentrations of other greenhouse gases because it requires the combined optical depth of all the greenhouse gases to be constant. If both the temperature and the concentrations of CO2 and CH4 are increasing, as has been the case recently, the concentration of water vapor in the atmosphere must decrease to maintain the combined optical depth. This situation contradicts the Clausius-Clapeyron equation, which requires an increasing temperature to lead to an increase in the evaporation rate.
 
But wouldn't the feedback proposed by Miskolczi operate on any warming forcing?

Perhaps not; he claims that the current warming cannot be due to GHG forcing, but he doesn't seem to deny that the warming occurs, and I'm not sure that I've seen him address a response time, for example.
 
But only at constant pressure, right?

True, but the only ways that the global average atmospheric pressure can change is if mass is added to or subtracted from the atmosphere or if there is a change in the mass of the Earth. As far as I'm aware, neither the mass of the atmosphere nor the mass of the Earth has changed significantly in the past few decades.
 

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