Merged National Geographic Special - "9/11 Science and Conspiracy" Debunks Thermite Myth

[kylebisme]

Possibly because those other buildings were wired up with freaking explosives? Anyone with a brain knows that wiring up buildings to explode in case of an emergency would be a ridiculously dangerous thing to do. You, however, seem to think it is perfectly reasonable...

A few people with enough brains can develop and implement means to prevent the dangers you allude to.

So all those Engineers in China or Iran or Moscow , wherever, have such an overwhelming desire to side with the Bush Government that they forget everything they learned in their careers as professional Engineers, but you are so clear thinking and expert that you can see right through it all?

All those? I doubt most have bothered to ever look into the details. And buying the official story isn't necessarily indicative of siding with the Bush Government or forgetting everything one knows. Suggesting otherwise demonstrates a lack of clarity in your own thinking here, as does the hostilely with which you address me.

 

[TruthersLie]

What he's saying is that the thermite used in the NG program was "high grade" in that it was plain thermite, and thus contained roughly 60% more energy than "nanothermite." There is no expectation for "nanothermite" to do any better, and many good reasons why it would perform worse.

Dismissing the experiment on those grounds is quite foolish. We have literally dozens of threads here explaining the idiocy of the "nanothermite" canard; you may wish to avail yourself of those before posting in the dark any further.

ETA: This is a very generous offer you've made:



I would be quite interested to hear what you've got. So far the answers to this question that we've received have been uniformly disappointing.

Ryan.

The only thing I wish they would have done is have several different possible techniques to completely DESTROY this bs thermite claim.

I wish they would have put a large mass above where the thermite was in contact with the beam to see if the heat under load would cause the beam to deform.

I also wish they had several different methods of the thermite. The version they used is one I have thought of, and I can think of several others which may cause deformations (including wrapping it up like a screw so the thermite could flow down and around the beam.

but again, even if that worked, there is NO telltale residue or the "pigs" that thermtie leave behind.

I love the twoof appeal to magic theories. They are so much fun.

 

[TruthersLie]

Dead wrong.

Yes you are Ryan.

that's like saying Godzilla is more plausible than Akira.

How many times do I have to tell you.

MOTHRA did it.

shesh.

 

[TruthersLie]

It is the molten steel found at the base of the towers which stands in contradiction to the official story.

Then you should have dozens of (if not hundreds) images/video showing molten STEEL.

you should have dozens of experts who agree by looking at said video that it is molten STEEL.

I can think of 10 common metals which all melt at under 1000 C which are commonly used metals. Can you? (do a search metals melting points.)

Besides that, they used a weaker beam and on its weaker orientation, ran the fire under nearly ideal conditions allowing it to reach about 67% hotter than anyone suggests the fires in the WTC got, did not secure to more steel which would distribute the heat, or anything at all for that matter, and stacked the weights in the center. Put simply, the so-called "experiment" wasn't fit for a high school science fair.

No you twoofs always like to say that jet fuel fires cannot melt steel. This showed EXACTLY that jet fuel fires can cause steel to deform in under 4 minutes.

thank you for playing socky...

 

[TruthersLie]

What exactly do you want me to prove? The fact that if enough support is removed from the base of a structure, it will topple over? The fact that a powerful enough bomb can remove enough support to do that? Are you seriously suggesting these are just possibilities I made up? Would anything short of that actually happening leave you arguing it is impossible?

No the fact that there is NO supporting evidence for your claims.

any bombs on any floors that are capable of cutting the steel columns would have been clearly heard throughout the entire complex and would be on dozens of videos. Provide just one.

in 1993, the truck bomb which went off was only 1000lbs of explosives. It didn't destroy a single column, but was CLEARLY heard by people ALL OVER the entire WTC complex.

 

[TruthersLie]

Like trees rely on gravity and the being vertical thing to be able to stand, but if you cut away enough of the base of the tree, what happens? Your argument ignores the fact that "has never" and "physical impossibility" are hardly the same.

Ah right.. so a building which is 95% air will collapse just like a tree which is solid?

I was explicit as possible, lacking omnipresence as I do.

OH the appeal to "the military has technology you cannot possibly understand" fallacy. Thank you for playing sock.

 

[kylebisme]

I don't need to imagine it. All of the buildings nearby were evacuated.

I was referring to other possible scenarios which could have happened, not what did happen. Your are conflating the two.

If the buildings "could have been rigged to blow for the sake of public safety" it should be very easy to find documents to prove that.
I mean besides for the overwhelming facts that
1. why would they rig any building to explode for "public safety?"
2. you do realize that explosives hvae a very limited shelf life right? After 3 years or so most explosives start losing their power very rapidly
3. to refit a building like the towers with explosives would cost BILLIONS and would be very noticable.
4. Of course when it gets out that you are rigging the buildings to "blow for the sake of public safety" I'm sure you would have people lining up to put their offices in those kinds of buildings. </sarcasm>

Do you not see the contradiction the two statements I bolded here?

anyway:

1. Answered in the post you quoted from.
2. I realize some do, while others can last considerably longer.
3. Have you seen our natinoal debt? And "very noticable" depends on how one goes about it.
4. Yes, I mentioned this in the post you quoted from.

I fully deny those possibiltiies. Provide a citation to support your wild assertions.

There is nothing wild about either possibility, but lacking omnipresence I can't rightly just pull up a citation shake you from your denial.

How does two buildings with a one acre footprint each (for a two acre footprint) collapse and have debris over 16 acres? That is NOT inside the footprint. How does a building that has debris over 600 feet away from it collapse into its own footprint? Please explain.

Rather than nitpick semantics, a better question is; how did the building keep crumbling all the way down to it's base when so much of the mass it was designed to support was being ejected to the sides?

Sworn to secrecy... this would take thousands of people working for YEARS... yet not one has ever spoken to a priest, a psychologist, or gotten drunk in a bar and bragged. Amazing operational security there... The manhattan project had leaks, yet not one person ever has come forward to support these wild claims.

Not thousands, and not years, and little to no reason to break that secrecy, and rather plenty reason to keep it.

I hand not heard of leaks from Manhattan Project before though and am curious to know more, any chance you could point me in the right direction for that?

 

[TruthersLie]

It would be wonderful if we could have this conversation without the snide remarks.

As for the molten steel, here is one mention:

I love it when twoofs DATAMINE without reading the context or the NEXT freaking sentence.

Geyh, an assistant scientist with the School's Department of Environmental Health Sciences (EHS), heads the team of scientists sent by the School in response to a request by the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences for a coordinated study of the disaster's potential health effects to those in the immediate environment.

So she can tell what molten steel looks like compared to say molten aluminum? Or molten cobalt? Or molten tin? By sight? Really?

Why is it that all twoofs have bad reading comprehension skills?

 

[TruthersLie]

But I am not claiming there is any such scandal to bring down, only suggesting there might be a secret public safety policy which is best kept secret.

You came up with the thousands of participants in a conspiracy nonsense somewhere else, and have no place blaming me for that.

a secret public safety policy?

Wow... amazing there twoof. Some unheard of, unknown policy to put explosives into buildings...

Please provide a citation or any support to these complete fabrications

 

[TruthersLie]

Rather, I'm just not so narrow minded as to think that whatever I don't know of doesn't exist, unlike you were doing previously with your "no molten steel" argument.

I'm still waiting to see some expert show there was molten steel there. Images, video or scientific analysis of steel to show any was MOLTEN. You haven't provided any yet.

I know how kilns work, they require a fuel source.

You mean things like all of the office insides for 2 110 story buildings which would burn? Or do you mean the oxygen required which was fed into the piles by the massive tunnel system under the complex?

try again. do some basic research. Please.. I am imploring you.

 

[kylebisme]

Then you should have dozens of (if not hundreds) images/video showing molten STEEL.


you should have dozens of experts who agree by looking at said video that it is molten STEEL.

You should realise I am not a repository, and realize the people in the area at the time generally had more important things to do.

I can think of 10 common metals which all melt at under 1000 C which are commonly used metals. Can you? (do a search metals melting points.)

Can you find any that look like steel?

No you twoofs always like to say that jet fuel fires cannot melt steel. This showed EXACTLY that jet fuel fires can cause steel to deform in under 4 minutes.

Are you not capable of understanding the difference between those two terms I bolded in your quote?

 

[TruthersLie]

I was referring to other possible scenarios which could have happened, not what did happen. Your are conflating the two.

YOu are right. It is also possible that MOTHRA came down and ripped up the two buildings, or an asteroid struck the towers, or godzilla came and did it.

I am conflating the two on purpose because it doesn't make sense.

Do you not see the contradiction the two statements I bolded here?

You make the assertion that they were rigged for public safety. Great, then find ANY OTHER BUILDINGS RIGGED FOR THE SAME REASON. I mean if it is for "public safety" there should be dozens of (if not hundreds) of these buildings. YOu should EASILY be able to find a citaiton to support your wild accusations.

2. I realize some do, while others can last considerably longer.

Provide one. Provide several. Please feel free. You would need hundreds of people working for years. and there is NO noise from these explosives. why is that?

There is nothing wild about either possibility, but lacking omnipresence I can't rightly just pull up a citation shake you from your denial.

Ah yes, the "they must be able to do it" fallacy. I love it. If you want to make an accusation you need some form of proof to support it. not just wild accusations.

Rather than nitpick semantics, a better question is; how did the building keep crumbling all the way down to it's base when so much of the mass it was designed to support was being ejected to the sides?

Nit pick semantics? No. You claim the building collapsed into its own footprint. That is not semantics. It is a CLAIM. One of the "proofs" that it was CD. The buildings did not collapse into their own footprint. Admit it. It is a LIE.

Not thousands, and not years, and little to no reason to break that secrecy, and rather plenty reason to keep it.

Provide a citation on how many man hours it would take. I have worked in CD. We did a 30 story building. 2 10 man crews were working and it took us over 4 months. Yet you claim that they had to retrofit the building to have explosives on each level (which no one can hear) in secret. Provide a manpower analysis of what you claim or admit it is bs.

I hand not heard of leaks from Manhattan Project before though and am curious to know more, any chance you could point me in the right direction for that?

sure. Truman told Stalin about the bomb test at the potsdam conference. There are some reearchers who state that stalin knew about the bomb.
http://www.dannen.com/decision/potsdam.html
I need to find my other citations. I'll be happy to provide the russian notes I have when I find the citations.

 

[TruthersLie]

You should realise I am not a repository, and realize the people in the area at the time generally had more important things to do.

Nice attempt at a dodge. You are the one making the claim, so you need to substantiate it. Not me. Provide an expert analysis.

Can you find any that look like steel?

Yes. Most molten metals look similar. Can an environmental phd tell the difference between molten steel, molten tin, molten aluminum, molten colbalt? Can you?

 

[TruthersLie]

You should realise I am not a repository, and realize the people in the area at the time generally had more important things to do.


Can you find any that look like steel?

molten cobalt


molten silver


molten aluminum
http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/aluminum/Aluminum_Glows.html

molten brass


molten copper


molten zinc


So do most of those molten metals look similar? yes... they are molten metal.

Your phd (appeal to authority reject btw) is an environmental scientist, not a metallurgist. Molten metals look similar to most folks.

 

[TruthersLie]

Are you not capable of understanding the difference between those two terms I bolded in your quote?

Oh yes I do... twoofs like to lie. Which is exactly what you are trying to do.

Jet fire can cause the steel to weaken and deform which is what NIST and the engineering world have said since 9/11.

Twoofs want to say that jet fuel won't melt the steel. The test showed EXACTLY what twoofs ignore. It doesn't have to MELT the steel, just cause it to weaken and deform.

 

[kylebisme]

So she can tell what molten steel looks like compared to say molten aluminum? Or molten cobalt? Or molten tin? By sight? Really?

One can visually get a reasonable approximation of the temperature by intensity of the light emitted, with the temperatures required to melt steel being unmistakably brilliant.

a secret public safety policy?

Wow... amazing there twoof. Some unheard of, unknown policy to put explosives into buildings...

Please provide a citation or any support to these complete fabrications

I presented a hypothetical while identifying it as such, and you are asking for citations and accusing me of fabrication? If you can't follow the conversation along well enough to aviod that, I'll just leave it at here.

 

[WildCat]

However, on the thermite thing, I noted the absurdity of the NG programs attempt to "prove" it couldn't melt steel earlier. Here is an of what they could have done if they weren't clueless.

And yet, 8 years after 9/11, no truther has been able to weaken, let alone melt, a steel column using thermite. Remember the Truthburn project? Epic FAIL.

Maybe you could be the first truther ever to use thermite to cut a steel column!

 

[kylebisme]

And yet, 8 years after 9/11, no truther has been able to weaken, let alone melt, a steel column using thermite. Remember the Truthburn project? Epic FAIL.

Maybe you could be the first truther ever to use thermite to cut a steel column!

I've never heard of the Truthburh project before now, but I'm curious how you figure a steel column would resist what a steel engine block can't? Did you even watch the video?

Also, I don't see why you are calling me a turther when it seems you are the one who thinks he has all the answers here.

 

[Pardalis]

Again, please do not mistake my statements to mean more than they do.

You make 30 posts in one day, on the day of september 11, and you don't want us to think you're a truther?

Please, this is a skeptics, forum.

 

[WildCat]

a secret public safety policy?

Maybe Mayor Daley was in charge of it? http://home.mindspring.com/~a.lo/Daley_secret_evacuation.mp3