Amway TV ad

[NewtonTrino]

The reason that amway salesmen think this way is so that they never give up. If they don't succeed it's because they aren't working hard enough (e.g. buying enough tools!). Maybe if they worked equally hard at something legit they would get somewhere...

 

[anduin]

Quick reply to Tex2 about patents. You can get a patent for anything nowadays with little effort, all you need is a clever patent attorney.

As to inefficiency in distribution, just by saying that traditional businesses are inefficient as well does not erase the fact that Amway is inefficient. Traditional retailers prefer fewer intermediaries because it reduces costs for both the seller and the customer. The more intermediaries there are, the higher the price will be, this is simple economics. I'm sorry but a system with 4 or 5 intermediaries at a national level is bloated and inefficient. Even with international trade you tend to try to minimise distribution. You have the manufacturer, the exporter, the importer, and the local distributions.

 

[Rasmus]

Quick reply to Tex2 about patents. You can get a patent for anything nowadays with little effort, all you need is a clever patent attorney.

As to inefficiency in distribution, just by saying that traditional businesses are inefficient as well does not erase the fact that Amway is inefficient. Traditional retailers prefer fewer intermediaries because it reduces costs for both the seller and the customer. The more intermediaries there are, the higher the price will be, this is simple economics. I'm sorry but a system with 4 or 5 intermediaries at a national level is bloated and inefficient. Even with international trade you tend to try to minimise distribution. You have the manufacturer, the exporter, the importer, and the local distributions.

The few cases I've dealt with have eliminated one step in that chain: The producer exports to a general importer (who often distributes directly as well as to other distributors.)

Of course that happens for specilty items - as soon as a local market is big enough one would start to produce locally.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Ok, here's one for ya. One of the phony baloney reasons people get in amway is that people tell them it's the easiest way to start a business and that it doesn't require much or any investment of money.

This is simply a strawman argument where they are building up some other theoretical business or god forbid "J.O.B." (just over broke etc.). I agree being a business owner is a better way to make money than being an employee. And here's the good part, it's not that hard to start any kind of business!

Here is a gameplan for starting a business that will work for a multitude of industries:

1) Figure out what industry you want to be in. This might be influenced by your current skillset or by an industry you think you can be successful in. For the love of god choose something profitable.

2) Get educated about that industry and get a job in that industry. Work at a firm or possibly several over a period long enough to really understand the business and make some contacts. Live cheap and save your money for step 3.

3) Quit your job and start your own shop. Use the money you saved up during phase 2 working in that industry. If you are starting a bigger business this is when you really work at getting funded. If it's a small business your savings should be enough to get the business going. I recommend staying away from VC on your first company btw.

4) If at any time the business from #3 goes broke or is sold then you rinse and repeat. Sometimes taking a job between starting up companies can be nice downtime (consulting is great at this time as well). Remember, if you took a business into the ground that it was a great learning experience and try to fix your problem next time. I'm currently on my 3rd business that involved more than one person. 2/3 ain't a bad success ratio.

Now people are going to bring up all kinds of bogus objections. For example businesses with high capital costs are only going to be possible when funded through VC's or angels. To me using the money you've saved to put together a VC pitch is probably not the way to go. I suggest finding an industry with lower capital requirements for your first business.

Which brings us back to why amway uses lower investment as part of the pitch. Just remember that time is equal to money. With the "3-5" year plan (which is a completely lie just read this thread) you could save up enough money to open a reasonable sized retail establishment if nothing else. If someone is committed enough to working hard in amway for 3-5 there are a lot of other ways they could also make bank. Investing your mcdonalds wages would slay the avg. amway business....

 

[Skeptic]

The Amway folks for some reason fell in love with the fact that they "own a business" so much that they completely ignore that the point of a business is not to "be a business owner", but to make money.

If you're losing money, as the vast majority of them are, there's no point owning the business. In fact, you'd be better off without it. I might as well throw $100 out the window every day and claim I own a "capital aerial dispersal business".

I mean, what's the point?

 

[Skeptic]

Amway people for some reason fall in love with the fact that they "own a business". They forget that the point of "owning a business" is to make money, and if you are losing money, as they are, there is no point to the "business ownership".

I might as well throw $100 out the window every day and feel good about owning a "capital aero-distribution business". I mean, what's the point?

 

[Porkchopjim]

Amway people for some reason fall in love with the fact that they "own a business". They forget that the point of "owning a business" is to make money, and if you are losing money, as they are, there is no point to the "business ownership".

The 'for some reason' is that it is not a 'business' so much as a cult.

The tapes/CDs/meetings/conferences/rallies that they spend so much money on - because they are told these things are 'extremely helpful' to building a large Amway business - reinforce the 'hang in there' / 'buy your own products' / 'we were in your shoes once scraping money together to make it to the big meeting but, as you can see, it was worth it because we are on stage preaching the greatness that you some day will have...'

There is a very deliberate thought change/control that goes on. Every new IBO that shows up someplace has the exact same scripted answers to justify the money they've lost and the time wasted chasing the dream of selling soap and vitamins from the beach.

 

[icerat]

In the interest of fairness, I don't really remember Icerat saying that. Maybe I missed it; it's certainly a long thread.

This was from a few days back. I never said, nor believe, that Amway is "the only answer" to anything. Neither have I heard it from anyone I associate with in Amway. Indeed most of things that Newton Trino claimed are "normal" for IBO groups I've never encountered in my time in Amway with the largest single group in the world. As I've pointed out ad nauseum, despite his denials, Newton Trino has experience with just one group. He claims it is with "multiple lines of sponsorship", but technically every single IBO is a "line of sponsorship" in itself. All of the groups NT has experience with associated with each other (originally at least) often having seminars together and training materials produced out of the same place by the same people. It would be like him having experience say with Sunni Islam and claiming because it included experience with sub-groups like Wahhabism that he could preclaim all religions throughout the world operated exactly the same way, and offering as "proof" the fact they regularly have meetings, believe in a god(s), and have some holy texts. Wahhabism and Hari Krishna's might have some similarities, but few would think they're the same.

Ok, Tricky hit the reset button. Under moderated status, I'd like to see a reply to the OP. Icerat tried a long time ago, but I can't say I was satisfied with the answer.

I can't see how to make these numbers work without making Amway look bad. I can only imagine that the people who made the ad are counting on the audience not really thinking about what it says.

Well, the very fact your commentating on it shows it wasn't the smartest marketing. Really it comes down to what question are you trying to answer, and can a simple average say anything meaningful? I can make it make Amway look very good.

Let's try one way of looking at it. Alticor sales were $8.2billion. About 100million of that were revenues from outside Amway (not 2 billion as PCJ suggests). 3 million "business owners". Doing the original "math" of a simple divide (with $8.1billion) that's $2700/yr revenues per person.

Is that good or bad? Well, China is Amway's biggest market, and according to a recent Forbes article on Amway China - "to the National Statistics Bureau, the average annual corporate income (in China) is about $5,100."

So one could say the average Amway China IBO has revenues more than half the size of the average Chinese Corporation! Not bad for a part-time business.

Except that wouldn't be true. Amway incomes in China are almost certainly lower than Amway incomes in say, the US. But they're all piled into those 2 numbers.

Then there's all the other factors. The "3 million" figure is a count of everyone who renewed at the end of 2008. It includes people who are IBOs purely to get wholesale pricing. According to data revealed in Team vs Quixtar, in the US only 12.9% of IBOs earn a bonus on downline volume - yet 50% order products (half never even do that!). That means, assuming everyone who was just shopping earned a bonus back on their own shopping, that 74% of IBOs who earned a bonus did so purely as a shopping rebate. That's a pretty big majority, so why not consider that to be the "average" IBO?

What's the "average" income in the US? $115/mth. $115/mth on a shopping rebate is pretty good don't you think! Especially since the average monthly purchase by IBOs in the US is ... $114!! (38PV)

Looks pretty good from that perspective - on average, everyone who joins Amway and buys stuff gets all their stuff for free!

Lies, damn lies, and statistics huh?

The reality is that the data given in the commerical tells you nothing other than that the folk who wrote the commercial didn't think about how people like you would interpret it!

It's waaayyyy too homogeneous a group to be able to say anything much at all statistically, and attempting to do so simply results in ridiculously long and uninformative threads like this one.

 

[icerat]

correction - average monthly purchase was $104, not $115. So, Amway IBOs get all their products free plus extra cash!

 

[NewtonTrino]

This was from a few days back. I never said, nor believe, that Amway is "the only answer" to anything. Neither have I heard it from anyone I associate with in Amway. Indeed most of things that Newton Trino claimed are "normal" for IBO groups I've never encountered in my time in Amway with the largest single group in the world. As I've pointed out ad nauseum, despite his denials, Newton Trino has experience with just one group. He claims it is with "multiple lines of sponsorship", but technically every single IBO is a "line of sponsorship" in itself. All of the groups NT has experience with associated with each other (originally at least) often having seminars together and training materials produced out of the same place by the same people. It would be like him having experience say with Sunni Islam and claiming because it included experience with sub-groups like Wahhabism that he could preclaim all religions throughout the world operated exactly the same way, and offering as "proof" the fact they regularly have meetings, believe in a god(s), and have some holy texts. Wahhabism and Hari Krishna's might have some similarities, but few would think they're the same.

All of the groups are cut from the same cloth. The differences are a result of natural selection as they evolved over time from the original groups that used these techniques (yager, britt I keep hearing were among the very first). So some of them push different angles like more or less religion or more of less emphasis on retailing. They *ALL* require a substantial amount of money to be spent on tools and meetings. That has already been clearly established in this thread.

As for the rest of your post thank you for the lesson in manipulation. Why doesn't amway just release the stats with more detail so people can make their own judgements?

 

[icerat]

All of the groups are cut from the same cloth. The differences are a result of natural selection as they evolved over time from the original groups that used these techniques (yager, britt I keep hearing were among the very first).

You again completely ignore the reality that the vast majority of Amway is not connected in any way to Britt/Yager.

So some of them push different angles like more or less religion or more of less emphasis on retailing. They *ALL* require a substantial amount of money to be spent on tools and meetings. That has already been clearly established in this thread.

And Hari Krishna's believe in god(s) so therefore they are just like Osama Bin Ladin

The "systems" are educational and motivational training organisations. Can you name a single similar organisation of any variety in the world that doesn't use things like books and meetings? Sales guru Todd Duncan reports in his book Killing the Sale -

Our company's average client spends approximately $5,000 each year on products and events in order to become a better, more enthusiastic salesperson

Audio & video, books, and meetings are NORMAL in the sales industry. Heck, they're normal teaching methods in most industries! Furthermore, contrary to your claims, NO Amway affiliated system "requires" any amount to be spent on anything - well, no more than being considered a customer of McDonald's requires you to actually buy something from McDonald's. By far the majority of people who register with Amway don't spend a cent on "tools and meetings".

So how you can claim the exact opposite has "been made clear on this thread" is beyond me.

As for the rest of your post thank you for the lesson in manipulation. Why doesn't amway just release the stats with more detail so people can make their own judgements?

It doesn't matter what stats were released, they'd be twisted. The stats that are published isn't because they mean anything, but because the FTC required Amway to publish them 30 years ago. Publishing anything else opens a whole can of worms (see Income and Earnings Representations for a good discussion on the issue). Amway (unlike some companies) does things by the book, and as you can see in that article, if they went outside just publishing the FTC mandated stats they'd probably have to provide different statistics for different states, some of which would require an inordinate amount of work and constant updating to avoid potential legal problems.

Whether Amway is a good business for someone doesn't really depend on stats like this anyway. What matters is their goals, their drive, and their circumstances, whether there's real products with a real market, and whether there's enough profit available to make it viable.

If there is, then there's a business opportunity. Pretty simple really.

 

[NewtonTrino]

You again completely ignore the reality that the vast majority of Amway is not connected in any way to Britt/Yager.

This is simply a straight out lie. Britt/Yager came first and the other systems learned how to do it from them. I explained it above. It's simple natural selection. I'm not claiming that all systems funnel money back to dexter, just that he was one of the first to get this idea. This isn't hard to understand.

And Hari Krishna's believe in god(s) so therefore they are just like Osama Bin Ladin

They do have some qualities in common, namely they are both delusional. Just like all amway groups have something in common, they all require large outlays of cash for ripoff cult materials that they pass off as training materials.

The "systems" are educational and motivational training organisations. Can you name a single similar organisation of any variety in the world that doesn't use things like books and meetings? Sales guru Todd Duncan reports in his book Killing the Sale -

Our company's average client spends approximately $5,000 each year on products and events in order to become a better, more enthusiastic salesperson

Audio & video, books, and meetings are NORMAL in the sales industry. Heck, they're normal teaching methods in most industries! Furthermore, contrary to your claims, NO Amway affiliated system "requires" any amount to be spent on anything - well, no more than being considered a customer of McDonald's requires you to actually buy something from McDonald's. By far the majority of people who register with Amway don't spend a cent on "tools and meetings".

So how you can claim the exact opposite has "been made clear on this thread" is beyond me.

Some amount of sales training is normal. Many people like to listen to guys like Tony Robbins to get motivated. Characterizing amway tapes as some sort of "super tony robbins" is simply a lie. The quantity of them is unheard of outside of MLM. I wish we could post transcripts...

It's also a lie to say that these are optional. Your upline will simply not spend any time with you unless you buy these materials. Yes many people get in and do absolutely nothing... but for those that consider themselves active builders not being on regular tools purchases is simply not an option.

I'm honestly aghast at the level of spin you are trying to apply. You can't fool me I've seen it with my own eyes.

It doesn't matter what stats were released, they'd be twisted. The stats that are published isn't because they mean anything, but because the FTC required Amway to publish them 30 years ago. Publishing anything else opens a whole can of worms (see Income and Earnings Representations for a good discussion on the issue). Amway (unlike some companies) does things by the book, and as you can see in that article, if they went outside just publishing the FTC mandated stats they'd probably have to provide different statistics for different states, some of which would require an inordinate amount of work and constant updating to avoid potential legal problems.

Whether Amway is a good business for someone doesn't really depend on stats like this anyway. What matters is their goals, their drive, and their circumstances, whether there's real products with a real market, and whether there's enough profit available to make it viable.

If there is, then there's a business opportunity. Pretty simple really.

The stats wouldn't be "twisted". They don't NEED to be twisted to show how crap amway is as an opportunity. Bottom line, they don't release them when ETHICALLY they should. What are they hiding?

Also icerat, again I'm going to say that you simply aren't high enough in amway to have authority to speak about how great it is. Come back when you have a decent sized business and tell us how it really works. Show us some numbers from a real successful business. I'm not holding my breath...

 

[Porkchopjim]

What's the "average" income in the US? $115/mth. $115/mth on a shopping rebate is pretty good don't you think! Especially since the average monthly purchase by IBOs in the US is ... $114!! (38PV)

Don't forget that the largest benefit you get as an IBO is that given the dismal amount of products that are sold and consumed by people who aren't IBOs - you, as a valued business owner, get your products at the same price OR WORSE than 95% of the people who buy Amway products.

Man, that's a HECK of a deal!

 

[icerat]

This is simply a straight out lie. Britt/Yager came first and the other systems learned how to do it from them. I explained it above. It's simple natural selection. I'm not claiming that all systems funnel money back to dexter, just that he was one of the first to get this idea. This isn't hard to understand.

Britt/yager came first with what? DeVos & Van Andel were producing 8-track tapes for their groups long before B/Y. Heck, they got active in Nutrilite after attending a major seminar. And they were all recommending various books. The "commonality" of tapes,books, and meetings you think make all systems the same existed before B/Y even joined Amway.

Some amount of sales training is normal.

And even the average "system" IBO spends less than the average sales person outside "the system". When you look at network marketers that do not have dedicated systems like have sprung up with Amway, their costs are higher.

Many people like to listen to guys like Tony Robbins to get motivated. Characterizing amway tapes as some sort of "super tony robbins" is simply a lie.

The lie is what's just occured - namely your claim that anyone characterizes "amway tapes" in that manner. I certainly don't.

The quantity of them is unheard of outside of MLM. I wish we could post transcripts...

Uhuh. Try virtually *any* University course. I bet the students listen (and pay for) more classes than any Amway IBO does. Remember that most tapes and CDs are simply seminars in a convenient format.

It's also a lie to say that these are optional. Your upline will simply not spend any time with you unless you buy these materials.

Again, it's you that are the one that is lying. First by the claim they're made "non-optional" by somebody not helping you. Even if true, how does that stop them being an option? It's still your choice. How can you reconcile the irrefutable fact that by far the majority of IBOs do NOT buy BSM with your claim that buying BSM is non-optional?

Your further lying by the second claim - my upline has helped me whether I've been buying BSM or not. I, as an upline, help anyone in my organisation who wants it, whether they're buying BSM or not. I could be charitable and assume you're just ignorant rather than lying, but I've told you this stuff before. You just choose to pretend otherwise.

Do some upline refuse to help people if they don't buy BSM? Possibly. I think that's wrong.

Yes many people get in and do absolutely nothing... but for those that consider themselves active builders not being on regular tools purchases is simply not an option.

I have a friend who regularly qualifiers at ruby/emerald level. He does not buy tools and does not participate in a "system" as you know it. There are many like that. Nevertheless, the vast majority of people with large successful businesses do. You can knock a nail in with your head if you want, but most carpenters would decide not having a hammer is "simply not an option".

I'm honestly aghast at the level of spin you are trying to apply. You can't fool me I've seen it with my own eyes.

No you haven't. You have zero experience with the vast majority of the Amway world. You have no idea at all what most IBOs do. None. You're just assuming it all operates the way it did in one corner of the Amway world you experienced, that that corner has never changed, and everyone else oeprates just the same - and when someone like me comes along and shares a different experience, you simply dismiss it and pretend it's not real.

It is real. Deal with it.

The stats wouldn't be "twisted". They don't NEED to be twisted to show how crap amway is as an opportunity. Bottom line, they don't release them when ETHICALLY they should. What are they hiding?

Oh good grief. The "what are they hiding" defence.

Edited by Gaspode: 

Edited for moderated thread

Also icerat, again I'm going to say that you simply aren't high enough in amway to have authority to speak about how great it is.

Again, you can't argue facts so you just make **** up. I've made no claim to have authority to speak about "how great" Amway is. What I've done is simply share my experience, show facts and display the utter poverty of the kind of argument you spout. The irony of course is that I have far more experience with Amway than you do ... yet you claim some kind of authority while simultaneously dismissing me ... hilarious.

 

[Skeptic]

What's the "average" (Amway) business income in the US? $115/mth

Veeeeeeeeery impressive. Why, that's almost $4 a day.

You put in merely an hour a day on average into this business -- part time, you know -- and, for that hour, you're already earning more than half the hourly federal minimum wage.

These Amway businessmen are really going places.

 

[Skeptic]

Just for laughs, I wonder if it would even be possible to find any industry or service where the average income of those who do it part time is $115 a month or less. Does a field where people are doing worse than Amway even exist? Part-time panhandling probably earns more than $115 a month.

 

[icerat]

Edited by Gaspode: 

Edited for topic - moderated thread

Skeptic, why are you replying to a post without having read it?

 

[NewtonTrino]

I can't type a long response on my phone but I did notice that icerat has a buddy thAt qualifies at ruby. Sounds like an ideal candidate for my challenge to bring someone on and talk about how great their specific business is. How about it icerat? Ask your friend to answer some questions? Not holding my breath. ..

 

[Porkchopjim]

And even the average "system" IBO spends less than the average sales person outside "the system". When you look at network marketers that do not have dedicated systems like have sprung up with Amway, their costs are higher.

Then, no doubt just like Amway products, those more expensive 'systems' must be a better value vs. the useless drivel (other than reinforcing failure) you endorse.

Uhuh. Try virtually *any* University course. I bet the students listen (and pay for) more classes than any Amway IBO does. Remember that most tapes and CDs are simply seminars in a convenient format.

Make sure to list all your Amway tapes on your resume...seeing as suddenly you consider them comparable to university courses. Remember that most tapes and CDs are a convenient way to extract money from downline.

How can you reconcile the irrefutable fact that by far the majority of IBOs do NOT buy BSM with your claim that buying BSM is non-optional?

And right in the following paragraph: not buying the tools is equivalent to driving a nail with your head...

He does not buy tools and does not participate in a "system" as you know it. There are many like that. Nevertheless, the vast majority of people with large successful businesses do. You can knock a nail in with your head if you want, but most carpenters would decide not having a hammer is "simply not an option".

I LOVE the tapespeak hammer reference!

How about the irrefutable fact that the real business of Amway is to cover the outrageous amounts of money extracted from downline in the form of 'very valuable tools'?

You have zero experience with the vast majority of the Amway world. You have no idea at all what most IBOs do. None. You're just assuming it all operates the way it did in one corner of the Amway world you experienced, that that corner has never changed, and everyone else oeprates just the same - and when someone like me comes along and shares a different experience, you simply dismiss it and pretend it's not real.

Right back at you. And again – when compared – your benevolent 'system' is no different than the abusive ones you claim are the only ones giving Amway a bad name. Once again, no IBO in any of the abusive systems you recognize says ANYTHING different than you do.

Did you ever find that test for phytonutrient levels?

 

[NewtonTrino]

Great post porkchopjim.

Amway tapes = university courses!!! I'm rotflmao right now.

If neutral people reading this thread could see the content of these tapes their heads would literally explode.