Merged [Ed] Convicted Lockerbie bomber released

I've read the Private Eye report, and Appendix 3 gives it a great deal of credibility. If the official UN observer thought it was a stitch-up orchestrated by the USA, then it's very very difficult to dismiss it as "just a CT".

I would thoroughly recommend giving Private Eye some money, and taking this one to the thread in the CT section.

Rolfe.
 
...Compassion for a mass-murdering terrorist is completely incorrect, thanks for asking.
Er. No it isn't. The Scottish does not have to do what you want.

He should die cold and alone in his cell, not with his family surrounding him. The people he murdered because he wanted to murder them did not get any such chance.

Thanks for asking.
Thanks for showing the true depth of your desire for vengance on a man who judges recognise may be innocent.

This indicates you have an emotional investment in the position, yet secretely know it's weak.
Cod psychology with no foundation in fact.

Simple. Because you keep pulling out multiple arguments to support an issue you really believe for one single reason: you want a murderer to be comforted. One who, by the way, would have no problem slitting your throat the second he was released, by you.
And your evidence for this nonsense is what exactly? And how dare I bring up multiple arguments.

Either way, fail. No, not you. The Scottish government and those who elected them, now and in the past.
Au contraire. It is a fail for all those who do not know what the word compassion means. In Scotland we will continue to show compassion in our judicial system, whatever Usans and their government want. Luckily you have absolutely no input to that system.
I submit anyone who wants a dying mass murderer to die with his family is being inhumane -- to his victims, but more importantly, to future victims of future attacks.
So all the victim's families who are happy for him to go home are inhumane?. Hint. Not all families take the view of the US families and that Scottish people were killed. Do you remember them?


Aside from embarrassing the Scottish government and, more importantly, other European governments with similar laws, so said laws get changed. By sufficient shaming, perhaps the local politicians who defend these laws will find themselves without a job.
Luckily they won't as they would truly be shamed by listening to Usan vengence like yours. We will continue to retain the idea of compassion in our justice system and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it - luckily.

PS

Did you complain about the monster William Caley being allowed to serve his very short sentence for mass murder in his own quarters
 
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How many families took the blood money from Gaddafi?

Maybe they should give it back in protest.
 
If the official UN observer thought it was a stitch-up orchestrated by the USA

In Israel we have a saying, "as useless as a UN observer".

We ARE talking about the same "official UN observers", sent by the antisemitic (and anti-USA) dictators' debating club in New York, who do such a bang-up job everywhere else they are sent?
 
In Israel we have a saying, "as useless as a UN observer".

We ARE talking about the same "official UN observers", sent by the antisemitic (and anti-USA) dictators' debating club in New York, who do such a bang-up job everywhere else they are sent?

He is Swiss. So he helped stash away Jewish property, looted by Nazis, in a secret bank vault. :rolleyes:
 
In Israel we have a saying, "as useless as a UN observer".

We ARE talking about the same "official UN observers", sent by the antisemitic (and anti-USA) dictators' debating club in New York, who do such a bang-up job everywhere else they are sent?


Um, let me see if I've got this right.

The Swiss UN observer thought Megrahi had been stitched up. The leading alternative theory, if the Libyans didn't do it, is that the culprits were Palestinian. Anyone doubting or rejecting Megrahi's guilt is by implication opening the door to the accusation that the crime was carried out by Palestinians.

And this is anti-semitic? :oldroll:

Rolfe.
 
Um, let me see if I've got this right.

The Swiss UN observer thought Megrahi had been stitched up. The leading alternative theory, if the Libyans didn't do it, is that the culprits were Palestinian. Anyone doubting or rejecting Megrahi's guilt is by implication opening the door to the accusation that the crime was carried out by Palestinians.

And this is anti-semitic? :oldroll:

Rolfe.

Of course it is. The Palestinians are Semitic, you know...
 
Thanks for showing the true depth of your desire for vengance on a man who judges recognise may be innocent.

That he "may" be innocent is the problem.

A lot of the sympathy seems to derive from people having severe doubts as to the safety of his conviction. But that really shouldn't be part of the equation... at the time of his release there had been no appeal and he was therefore still the convicted killer of 270 people.

Of course, what should have been done is that his appeal should have been fast tracked as soon as his health condition was diagnosed. And Scotland's Justice Minister should have made sure it was fast tracked.

What should not have been done (IMHO) is release him - on any grounds - while he was still officially the most prolific mass murderer in UK history.

(Note: I am criticising Kenny's predecessors as well as him for not having acting earlier and gotten an appeal moving - which would have headed off this circus by either confirming or denying his guilt. But Kenny - when the buck finally came to him - made an outrageous, nay, obscene decision in my opinion).
 
Lots of sekrit info released today.

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/newsroom/latest-news/?view=News&id=20779434

http://www.justice.gov.uk/news/announcement010909a.htm

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2009/09/01133538

Still trying to make sense of it myself, but as far as I can tell, it went something like this;

-UK gov broker prisoner transfer deal - supposedly not for Megrahi - as part of a 'new relationship' with Libya
-Scottish gov not keen on this, request a specific exception for Megrahi
-UK at first agrees, then fails to obtain exception
-UK makes string of vague assurances that the pre-existing agreemetn that he should serve his time on Scottish soil, plus his state of appeal, meant that he couldn't be transferred.
-Megrahi drops the appeal, becoming eligible for the new prisoner transfer scheme

Either because they didn't trust the UK assurances and their own legal system's ability to ensure autonomy, or because they just wanted to go their own way and get rid of the problem, the SNP take the escape route suggested by Jack Straw in one of the letters to go the compassionate release route. That way they aren't seen to buckle under to the prisoner transfer deal and implied UK desire to see Megrahi transferred specifically, and get to take the moral high ground.

The alternative being to let him die on Scottish soil, and allow the UK gov to point the finger at them and still have a crack at getting Libya onside politically and in terms of trade.

Have I got it about right?

Actually quite a clever solution to a thorny problem by Salmond et al.
 
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What it comes down to is that Scotland was planning to release Megrahi long before he was diagnosed with cancer.
 
What it comes down to is that Scotland was planning to release Megrahi long before he was diagnosed with cancer.

I am not sure where you get this from?

The first link is correspondence from the FCO to the Scottish Justice officials in July of this year and this was referred to in McCaskill's reasons for his decision.

From what he said he had gained the impression from both american officials/politicians and from some of the american families that they had an expectation that Megrahi would be held in a Scottish prison for his full sentence. This correspondence seeks to establish whether any such unusual commitment had been given by the UK government. The first letter cited states clearly that the answer is no. The second letter is in response to a request for sight of the documents relating to the discussions and agreements made; the request is denied though the assurance that no such commitment was made is reiterated. McCaskill specifically regretted the fact the those documents were not made available to him when he announced his decision.

The request for sight of the documents is very reasonable given the view expressed by the americans and its variance from the UK government's line
It is the more understandable when we come to the second link which is to earlier correspondence:

The first letter (12/6/07) from Falconer to Salmond includes these words

The UK Government is well aware of the undertakings given in respect of Mr Megrahi. I am also aware that the Megrahi case is currently under review.This MOU does not conflict with those undertakings, nor does it impact on due process.

It is not at all clear from this letter what the undertakings referred to were; nor who they were given to. So Salmond seems to have written again

I notice this
A prisoner who is subject to an appeal cannot apply for transfer because Prisoner Transfer Agreements require a sentence to be final before transfer can take place. As such, until all his appeals have been concluded, M ral-Megrahi would be excluded from any such agreement.

That seems to clear up any continuing mystery as to why he withdrew his appeal: he was applying for release under PTA as well as under the compassionate grounds provision. While it may be true that no pressure was applied it is likely that any competent legal advisor would tell him that withdrawing the appeal was necessary if any consideration were to be given to his application under PTA. And this also explains the media reports to that effect in advance of the decision.

The letter from Jack Straw (26/7/09) acknowledges that the Scottish executive wanted Megrahi speficically excluded from the PTA: which hardly suggests they were planning to release him at that stage. It outlines ways this might be done but includes a provision for review of the agreement at a later date.

The letter from Hunt which follows makes it plain that the uk government does not want a specific exclusion for Megrahi: they prefer to leave it "permissive" thus ensuring that any diplomatic problem will a problem for Scotland and not for themselves. It includes this paragraph:

As you know, the Government has on a number of occasions made it L clear to the Libyan authorities that any PTA between the UK and Libya would not cover alMegrah. because the Government recognised the sensitivities surrounding this case. It also reflected the position set out in the letter from the UK and US Governments to the United Nations Secretary General (dated24August1998), which made it, clear that in the event of a conviction al-Megrahi would serve his sentence in the United Kingdom.

So the "made it clear" but did not want to write it down. And again there is reference to some letter from the UK and US governments to the UN the contents of which are not specified here. This explains the request for sight of this correspondence since it is obvious the wording is important

Straw's letter of September 2007 undertakes to include the exclusion clause requested by the Scottish Executive for any and all people convicted of involvement in the Lockerbie bombing. Straw reneges on that in his letter of Dec 2007. Not surprisingly what is negotiated is what the FCO wanted in the first place. Salmond registers his disagreement with that decision in January and Straw gives him the bum's rush in February 2008. The letter of November 2008 gives notice that the PTA (in the form that the FCO wanted from the start) has been agreed and provides procedural information about how it will be passed: it reiterates that any decisions about Megrahi are for the Scottish Justice Minister, though that was never in doubt: the issue was whether the PTA would apply to lockerbie bombers and had no implications for release on compassionate grounds at all.

It seems to me that this whole correspondence was to ensure that the UK government was free of any responsibility for matters which might arise through the PTA which was framed in opposition to the wishes of the Scottish Exec.

The third link makes it plain that McCaskill had received representations which argued that agreements made between the uk and us and libyan governments through the united nations were still in force and would prevent the transfer of Megrahi under PTA. He refers to the fact that the background papers are not made available and asks about the rationale behind them. Which takes us back to the first link

I cannot see how you get to your view from all of this. Please explain
 
"Talks began in secret some three years ago for the prisoner transfer agreement between Libya and the UK. Officials in the North African country have consistently said these talks centred on Megrahi, but Westminster has denied such claims."

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/new...over_Jack_Straws_secret_letter_on_Megrahi.php

Cicero, you do understand the difference between the United Kingdom and Scottish governments, don't you?

Fiona has nailed it in her assessment, and the Scottish government comes out of this looking rather good I think - unless you believe that a convicted terrorist must never be permitted compassionate release. It only leaves the question of why the Scottish government didn't just respond by letting Megrahi rot in prison. To which the answer must be that they wished to demonstrate a measure of independent thinking and moral standards, whilst simultaneously taking all the political pressure off them. A compromise in response to the UK government trying to frame them as the bad guys, basically.
 
Cicero, you do understand the difference between the United Kingdom and Scottish governments, don't you?

Fiona has nailed it in her assessment, and the Scottish government comes out of this looking rather good I think - unless you believe that a convicted terrorist must never be permitted compassionate release. It only leaves the question of why the Scottish government didn't just respond by letting Megrahi rot in prison. To which the answer must be that they wished to demonstrate a measure of independent thinking and moral standards, whilst simultaneously taking all the political pressure off them. A compromise in response to the UK government trying to frame them as the bad guys, basically.

Actually, I don't think that unremorseful convicted terrorists should be granted compassionate release.

If we doubt the conviction, then expedite the appeal. While the conviction stands, he should rot in jail.
 
...snip...

That seems to clear up any continuing mystery as to why he withdrew his appeal: he was applying for release under PTA as well as under the compassionate grounds provision. While it may be true that no pressure was applied it is likely that any competent legal advisor would tell him that withdrawing the appeal was necessary if any consideration were to be given to his application under PTA. And this also explains the media reports to that effect in advance of the decision.


...snip...

Apart from his dropping his appeal did not alter his standing under the PTA because there was another appeal outstanding.
 
Cicero, you do understand the difference between the United Kingdom and Scottish governments, don't you?

Fiona has nailed it in her assessment, and the Scottish government comes out of this looking rather good I think - unless you believe that a convicted terrorist must never be permitted compassionate release. It only leaves the question of why the Scottish government didn't just respond by letting Megrahi rot in prison. To which the answer must be that they wished to demonstrate a measure of independent thinking and moral standards, whilst simultaneously taking all the political pressure off them. A compromise in response to the UK government trying to frame them as the bad guys, basically.

Yes, the U.K. has authority over Scotland's government when it comes to foreign affairs. Scotland's parliament is not a sovereign body and could be abolished by the UK parliament.

Why is Megrahi's flesh more precious than the flesh of other convicts "rotting" in Scottish prisons? But in Megrhai's case, cancer seems to be the chief culprit for his "rotting" condition. Now that Megrahi is out of prison, has his flesh ceased to rot, or has it accelerated?
 

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