I need serious help with this guy

[Horatius]

I'd love to, but he seems more interested on NOT picking on anyone his own size.

If I was you, I wouldn't worry too much about his "size"; basically everything in that message is cut and pasted from other sources. I bet if you were to google a few sentences at random, you could find the same wording being parroted all over the web.

And that's a good tack to take: why is it that your friend, who apparently has a background in science and engineering, has to parrot the same nonsense other, non-engineer truthers have been promoting for years? Why can't he step up to the plate with his own analysis?

Also, after you've shown him that he's just parroting others, ask him if there's anything in their analysis he disagrees with. Or does he insist that non-engineers got everything right the first time?

An example:

Googling "Following the start of the collapse the upper floors would have had to shatter the steel joints in all 85 or so floors at the lower levels. If this required only one second per floor then the collapse would have required more than a minute.", I find as the first three hits these pages:

http://www.serendipity.li/wtc5.htm

http://wakeupfromyourslumber.blogspot.com/2006/09/pyroclastic-flows-911s-smoking-gun_13.html

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendId=47140416

Which all have almost the exact same wording as your friend used in that paragraph. A perfect example of the CT echo chamber - one guy somewhere wrote this passage, and everyone else just repeats it endlessly, without adding anything substantive of their own - even if they are engineers.

 

[Sunray Breaker]

Damn you guys are good. Even my strongest points can't hold a candle to some of you good folks here...I'll keep this thread open, as I KNOW I'm going to have some more dumb questions.

The debunking sites are harder to use sometimes as responses to SPECIFIC questions, so for these I need your help...

Feel free to keep going on this and I'll probably post his next rediculous ramble tomorrow...

We've been going at it back and fourth every day for about 3 weeks.

 

[Sunray Breaker]

His latest BS...Continued

what in the world are you talking about
were did the buildings fall if not into there own footprint
a few beams landed well outside of the typical fall zone showing the likelihood of explosive detonations

and some small percentage of other stuff
but other than that most debris was well within the footprint
and I notice you fail to address the lack of material in that trash pile we used to call the trade center
or the lack of kinetic energy available in the buildings required to pulverize say ten stories worth of concrete
you also fail to address the debris in the basement
how much was there
and more importantly
now much wasnt there

I said in a post earlier to him
gravity, kinetic energy, pressure from the weight of 110 stories dropping on top of itself…And since this has never happened before in history, how the hell do you know what SHOULD have happened? I find that claim from the truth movement and any of it’s supporters to be increasingly naïve.

His response was:

obviously you have not calculated it out along with the energy necessary to pulverize the number of cubic feet of concrete
and I know what should have happened becuase I studied up on controlled demolition when I took 4 semesters of construction management
its a well known expectation that a collapsed structure yields about 13% of its pristine highth in a lovely pile after the demolition
how do you expect anyone to estimate the removal of the debris if you cant estimate the amount of depris your going to end up with
please
lets try to keep up a little
look this stuff up before you go making more silly comments

This is not my forte so further help is always appreciated...Thanks again guys

 

[T.A.M.]

As others have said, he is a 100% fraud. I doubt he is anything more than an engineer wannabee, and most likely is just a stupid hack.

Tell him to publish a paper with his own theories on how 9/11 collapsed. Tell him Bentham will publish any crap, so he might want to start there.

Don't be duped.

Did I mention that in addition to being a doctor, I am also a structural engineer, and as a twenty something I was part of a demolition crew.

TAM')

 

[stateofgrace]

obviously you have not calculated it out along with the energy necessary to pulverize the number of cubic feet of concrete
and I know what should have happened becuase I studied up on controlled demolition when I took 4 semesters of construction management
its a well known expectation that a collapsed structure yields about 13% of its pristine highth in a lovely pile after the demolition
how do you expect anyone to estimate the removal of the debris if you cant estimate the amount of depris your going to end up with
please
lets try to keep up a little
look this stuff up before you go making more silly comments

If he's an engineer I'm the King of Scotland .

Ask him if he as worked out how much explosives are required to pulverise all the concrete.

Ask him if he knows what bracing is, also (the floors braced the external columns to core). Ask him how the concrete contributed to the structural interrogatory of the towers ( It didn't).

Ask him to show you how he calculated that one floor that braced the external columns and the core was able to stop the massive falling dynamic weight.

 

[R.Mackey]

I agree, this guy has no technical background at all.

As for the "13% heighth" or however he spelled it, that's what happened. The Pile was about eight floors high, and was resting in the six-floor-deep basement, after collapse.

Lots of these topics covered in my whitepaper, particularly Appendix B looking at energy and collapse time. You can just load it up and do a keyword search, no particular insight needed for this guy.

 

[~enigma~]

His latest BS...Continued





I said in a post earlier to him
gravity, kinetic energy, pressure from the weight of 110 stories dropping on top of itself…And since this has never happened before in history, how the hell do you know what SHOULD have happened? I find that claim from the truth movement and any of it’s supporters to be increasingly naïve.

His response was:

This is not my forte so further help is always appreciated...Thanks again guys

Quite often the numerous spelling errors made by ANYONE in the TM should reveal their LACK of education and their LACK of sincerity.

 

[Sunray Breaker]

Tell him he should research who Christopher Bollyn and The Web Fairy are before using them to advance any argument.

Can someone give me a brief crash course on this? A couple of good links critiqing this guy? I've never heard of him and I'm not sure where to start...

 

[CHF]

obviously you have not calculated it out along with the energy necessary to pulverize the number of cubic feet of concrete
and I know what should have happened becuase I studied up on controlled demolition when I took 4 semesters of construction management
its a well known expectation that a collapsed structure yields about 13% of its pristine highth in a lovely pile after the demolition
how do you expect anyone to estimate the removal of the debris if you cant estimate the amount of depris your going to end up with
please
lets try to keep up a little
look this stuff up before you go making more silly comments

That last comment was telling. "Look it up" is indeed what this phony engineer did - looked it up on a twoofer site and copied it.

As for this bit: "its a well known expectation that a collapsed structure yields about 13% of its pristine highth in a lovely pile after the demolition"

Ask if he knows about the sub-levels.

 

[CHF]

Can someone give me a brief crash course on this? A couple of good links critiqing this guy? I've never heard of him and I'm not sure where to start...

Christopher Bollyn, if I'm not mistaken, is/was a writer for the American Free Press, a website run by Holocaust Denier.

The Web Fairy, I recall being a no-planer but I could be wrong.

 

[TexasJack]

Christopher Bollyn, if I'm not mistaken, is/was a writer for the American Free Press, a website run by Holocaust Denier.

The Web Fairy, I recall being a no-planer but I could be wrong.

Bollyn was also arrested for assault, and IIRC, fled before his court date.

 

[beachnut]

I've had the misfortune the last couple of weeks of trying to convince an engineer who took controlled demo courses in college and ALSO claims to have worked on the WTC towers, that the official story is accurate...Since I'm not an engineer and I AM a recovering "Twoofer", I could use some help.

If he is an engineer he is one of the dumbest. Sorry, but his one minute collapse is proof he can't do structural engineering or physics.

You are talking to a fraud who can't do physics.

The floors don't take a second to fail, they fail instantly. The parts that did not fail instantly, in the core, took another 20 seconds to fall.

Call him on the 12 seconds and show him the core falling many seconds later.

Gravy did a practical video on the subject.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2873871255585611926

 

[Kermassa]

a few beams landed well outside of the typical fall zone showing the likelihood of explosive detonations
and some small percentage of other stuff
but other than that most debris was well within the footprint

Has he ever seen any pictures from Ground Zero?

 

[Horatius]

Try pointing out the contradictions in his own posts.

what in the world are you talking about
were did the buildings fall if not into there own footprint
a few beams landed well outside of the typical fall zone showing the likelihood of explosive detonations

It fell in its own footprint, except for those bits that didn't. And of course, both (contradictory) assertions prove CD, don't they?

and some small percentage of other stuff
but other than that most debris was well within the footprint
and I notice you fail to address the lack of material in that trash pile we used to call the trade center
or the lack of kinetic energy available in the buildings required to pulverize say ten stories worth of concrete

So, most of the debris was within the footprint, but there wasn't enough material in the "Trash pile". Did it evaporate? Is he a Space Beamer, too?

you also fail to address the debris in the basement
...

a collapsed structure yields about 13% of its pristine highth in a lovely pile

R.Mackey's already addressed this one. He knows about the basements, in fact he chastises you for ignoring them, but then he ignores them himself when trying to argue the pile was too small.

Ask him to pick a belief, and stick with it for more than half a paragraph.

 

[TruthersLie]

<snip>
what in the world are you talking about
were did the buildings fall if not into there own footprint

They did not fall into their own footprints. This is very easy to show. the footprint of each tower was an acre. So if the fell into their own footprints, the debris should only be over 2 or 3 acres. The debris was over 16 acres. Not in own footprint.

Twoofs then shift the fell into own footprint to wtc7. That is also a lie. how does wtc7 fall into own footprint when it heavily damaged buildings on opposite sides of it across the street in both directions? The verizion building and fitterman hall were heavily damaged by wtc7. In fact Fitterman hall had stuff fall on its ROOF from wtc7. How does a building collapse into its own footprint but manage to hit the ROOF of a building over 40 feet away? It doesn't.

a few beams landed well outside of the typical fall zone showing the likelihood of explosive detonations

tell him to provie it was just "a few beams" outside of the footprint. Tell him to provide you with images which show the debris is only in 2 or 3 acres (the footprint). This is complete and utter BS.

Gravy did a great movie destroying the whole explosive detonations argument.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2873871255585611926#12m50s**

or the lack of kinetic energy available in the buildings required to pulverize say ten stories worth of concrete

tell him to provide you with the kinetic energy available and to provide the equations. He is lying. He is NOT a structural engineer, and he is full of crapola.

 

[Sunray Breaker]

I showed him pretty much everything gravy did (which is sort of what blasted the woo off my brain about as swiftly as the planes did the fireproofing) and instead of refutting the evidence, he just questions the credibility of the person presenting it....

This guy is unbelievable. I'm so happy to not be associated with these wack jobs anymore. I consider myself a REAL truther. I dedicated just as much time to the skeptics as I did the CT's and in the end, the skeptics passed with flying colors, while the CT's had their As*es handed to them every step of the way.

 

[Justin39640]

They did not fall into their own footprints. This is very easy to show. the footprint of each tower was an acre. So if the fell into their own footprints, the debris should only be over 2 or 3 acres. The debris was over 16 acres. Not in own footprint.

Twoofs then shift the fell into own footprint to wtc7. That is also a lie. how does wtc7 fall into own footprint when it heavily damaged buildings on opposite sides of it across the street in both directions? The verizion building and fitterman hall were heavily damaged by wtc7. In fact Fitterman hall had stuff fall on its ROOF from wtc7. How does a building collapse into its own footprint but manage to hit the ROOF of a building over 40 feet away? It doesn't.



tell him to provie it was just "a few beams" outside of the footprint. Tell him to provide you with images which show the debris is only in 2 or 3 acres (the footprint). This is complete and utter BS.

Gravy did a great movie destroying the whole explosive detonations argument.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2873871255585611926#12m50s**



tell him to provide you with the kinetic energy available and to provide the equations. He is lying. He is NOT a structural engineer, and he is full of crapola.

truthers hate fitterman hall (30 west broadway)
it really puts a kink in their foot print fantasies

 

[matt.tansy]

Regarding "close to free fall", he can't just say they are close because true free fall time is 9.01 seconds and one tower fell in 15 seconds. If your "engineer" could do the math he quoted, he'd realize the ratio of free fall time to collapse time must be squared to get the percentage of free fall the 15 second tower collapsed at, which is 36%. And 36% ain't nowhere near close to free fall. The other tower took 22 seconds to collapse; that is 17% of free fall.

 

[BigAl]

Regarding "close to free fall", he can't just say they are close because true free fall time is 9.01 seconds and one tower fell in 15 seconds. If your "engineer" could do the math he quoted, he'd realize the ratio of free fall time to collapse time must be squared to get the percentage of free fall the 15 second tower collapsed at, which is 36%. And 36% ain't nowhere near close to free fall. The other tower took 22 seconds to collapse; that is 17% of free fall.

And those times are measured from the impact floor, not the top floor. Fro the south tower, that would be about 1,000 ft.

6. How could the WTC towers collapse in only 11 seconds (WTC 1) and 9 seconds (WTC 2)-speeds that approximate that of a ball dropped from similar height in a vacuum (with no air resistance)? NIST estimated the elapsed times for the first exterior panels to strike the ground after the collapse initiated in each of the towers to be approximately 11 seconds for WTC 1 and approximately 9 seconds for WTC 2. These elapsed times were based on: (1) precise timing of the initiation of collapse from video evidence, and (2) ground motion (seismic) signals recorded at Palisades, N.Y., that also were precisely time-calibrated for wave transmission times from lower Manhattan (see NCSTAR 1-5A)... [2]

 

[sylvan8798]

Following the start of the collapse the upper floors would have had to shatter the steel joints in all 85 or so floors at the lower levels. If this required only one second per floor then the collapse would have required more than a minute. But the material from the upper floors ploughed through the lower floors at a speed of at least six floors per second. This is possible only if all structural support in the lower 85 or so floors had been completely eliminated prior to the initiation of the collapse.

All of them? Prior to the initiation? No structural engineer would make a statement this stupid, even as a mis-statement. If all the supports were removed before the initiation, the WHOLE THING would have fallen all at once, simultaneously, to the ground, more like they do in the actual controlled demolitions.

Since the lower floors were undamaged by the plane impacts and the fires, the removal of all structural support in these floors must have been due to some other cause — and the most obvious possibility is explosives. Thus the speed of the collapse (not much more than the time of free fall) is conclusive evidence that the Twin Towers were brought down in a controlled demolition involving the use of explosives (or some other destructive technology) at all levels.

if you want to argue one or two seconds and try and say its for some reason a significant deviation from free fall speeds your welcome to it
given that the calculated time of a natural collapse is over one minute Id say your barking at the wind again

Sounds like he's channeling Judy Wood. Ask for calculations. If it is calculated, there must be "calculations".