Quantum entanglement and the Supernatural

[pocoloco]

I did read the one on BMJ. Is that the same you are talking about?

 

[chillzero]

You got me wrong. It did not ask him to curse me to "bring it all to an end". I asked him to curse me so that I could see that nothing happens if he does... I prayed for my own death, but it did not happen. I did not pray for it because I wanted to be dead, but because I wanted to be sure cursing does not work. When I did not die I thought "may be your own curse cannot kill you... but it is not really a proof it does not work... you need somebody else to curse you. That is why I asked him.

hmmm... I'll reserve judgement on a comment such as this:

I am not sure if I want to do this. It's just to scary... whatever bad happens to the people I have cursed, I blame it on the curse... but could you do me a favour and curse me? Could you pray that a crocodile, a lion and a hippopotamus shall eat me? It is an ancient egyptian curse.

and see how you respond to others, then.

Advice - don't spam the same post in multiple forums with the pretence that you have gone to each individually for help.

I sincerely mean what I posted about my diagnosis and I am seeing a psychiatrist and I am also on medication.

I would suggest that you continue to seek advice and assistance from this source. You can be certain you are dealing with qualified individuals who are taking you seriously and not leading you anywhere for a giggle.

Prayer is not the same thing as magical thinking and curses. Please distinguish the two. Prayer is a conversation with a god to review where you are, or what you need help with, or what you think needs brought to the deity's attention. If you believe in the deity, then any further action is in their hands - you cannot command a god and are therefore not responsible for anythign that happens, no matter how closely it resembles a request you may have made in prayer. There is no real evidence that prayer has any power to make changes to anything other than the praying person's sense of calm.

Cursing and magical thinking are defined entirely by you. There are no rules other than what you may make up or read in books by other magical thinkers. Either way, there is no structure and no evidence that it actually works. Please read up on confirmation bias. You are not responsible for the things that have happened to people around you. I have some past experience in this are:
http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=Blaming_the_victim.php

Whether you take any of this advice or not, I still advise you stick with the professionals.

 

[pocoloco]

I have send you a private mail about this river.

 

[chillzero]

Did it make the news? I mean a river flowing backwards is pretty impressive.

Whether s/he is telling the truth about this event or not is really irrelevant. Even if a river reversed its flow, it was not caused by the thoughts of any one person, or even group of people.

 

[fls]

I did read the one on BMJ. Is that the same you are talking about?

I am talking about the paper you referenced.

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/323/7327/1450

Here's a clue. The prayer took place up to 10 years after the infection had already resolved. The author suggests that it "should be considered for use in clinical practice". As a doctor, how do you treat an ongoing infection with the intention to pray for it in 10 years time? As a doctor, why would you pray for an infection that resolved 10 years ago?

Linda

 

[kerikiwi]

Whether s/he is telling the truth about this event or not is really irrelevant. Even if a river reversed its flow, it was not caused by the thoughts of any one person, or even group of people.

totally agree.
But I am as confident that no such thing ever happened as I am that the earth orbits the sun.
Thus the claim that a curse caused a river to flow backwards is false because no such thing happened.

 

[Tyooby]

Pocoloco, what kind of deity is it you believe in? You think it just perpetrates evil deeds for you on demand, thinking "Befehl ist Befehl"?

 

[Stray Cat]

totally agree.
But I am as confident that no such thing ever happened as I am that the earth orbits the sun.
Thus the claim that a curse caused a river to flow backwards is false because no such thing happened.

The appearance of a river flowing backwards can be possible.
In a tidal estuary.

What puzzles me is WHY would anyone think to pray for such a thing?

 

[kerikiwi]

The appearance of a river flowing backwards can be possible.
In a tidal estuary.

The place where this is said to have happened is not a tidal estuary. It is claimed to have happened after very heavy rain.
It is unclear whether he prayed for the rain, or the reversal of river flow.
Either way, I am still perfectly happy to state that the river did not reverse its flow.
That leaves us with the usual explanations for such non-events:
The claimant is either lying or deluded.

 

[subvicepresident]

Hi,
<snip>
May quantum entanglement cause this?

For quantum entanglement to have caused this we first have to establish that this happened. You're still at step numero uno. Other posters seem to be aware of that.

I suggest having a look at this. It's list of reasons why someone might believe things to be true when in fact they are not.

 

[Maia]

Hey pocoloco!

First of all, let me say that I can't diagnose or treat anyone on an Internet forum, obviously. Nothing I post should be taken as medical advice. Please talk to your doctor or therapist instead.

That being said, I'm a psychiatric social worker and I've worked with many clients who have OCD. The symptoms you're describing are not unusual. Many other people experience similar symptoms called primary mental obsessions. Being afraid that you could "hurt other people with my thoughts or actions or prayers", is a good example of a violent mental obsession, and "that I needed to ask God for forgiveness if I had a bad thought because otherwise he would hurt my friends" is a compulsion performed in an attempt to neutralize the obsession. However, I should tell you that I have had clients who have also posted on Internet boards, and that this has been another type of "reassurance compulsion." When people respond, they are feeding into it. Clearly, it's not their fault, but my opinion is that you will be a whole lot better off not posting on this topic.

Please remember, again, that I obviously can't diagnose or treat anything over the Internet! But there are standard treatments for OCD (exposure and response prevention) and some people are also helped by medication. It is definitely one of the easier disorders to treat! My advice would be to hang in there and continue to get help. There is a way out, and many other people with mental obsessions have gotten better. I wish you all the best.

 

[Apology]

Apparently in Germany there are a number of rivers that flow backwards, or south to north rather than the traditional north to south.

In Europe, there's the Rhine, which flows north from Switzerland between France and Germany past the part of the world the Fundis family originally came from, though it veers northwest toward the Netherlands shortly past there. On the other side of Germany is the Elbe, which flows into the Baltic Sea, and with its tributary the Neisse has formed Germany's border with Poland since the end of World War II. Other north-flowing rivers in Germany include the Ems, Uecker, Spree, Necker, Weser, and Warnow; there are many more. Other north-flowing rivers in Poland include the Vistula and the Warta.

Rivers That Flow North

Maybe it's not so unusual to have a river flowing backwards? I'm sure your prayers had nothing to do with it. Most likely the storm drain system was overwhelmed, causing water to flow backwards out of the system to escape the pressure inside the system.

 

[tuc0]

Do you really think this is fun for me?

To be honest... yes. I don't believe you and think this is a prank/trolling experiment/social study/whatever. In any case (especially if you are serious), I wish you good luck in your endeavors.

 

[Big Les]

I agree. A slow day over at 4chan I imagine.

 

[brobradh77]

I prayed for a river flowing backwards

wow..how random is that?

 

[pocoloco]

Pocoloco, what kind of deity is it you believe in? You think it just perpetrates evil deeds for you on demand, thinking "Befehl ist Befehl"?

I do not even know what kind of deity I believe in. I think there might be a world we do not know filled with God(s) und I fear there mere be also devil(s) and demons... and I fear that by cursing and praying for bad things to happen I might have given them the possibiblity to hurt other people or may have invited them to do this.
I also fear that there might be a power which answers prayers and it does not care about right or wrong or good or evil, because "right", "wrong", "good" and "evil" are human concepts and not valid for him.

Those are the things I fear. I do not say that it is like that, I just think it possibly might be like that and it scares me.

According to the Bible God several times killed enemies of the Israelites simply because he has been asked for it. Of course I hope if there is a God that he is not like this, but how can I be sure?

 

[pocoloco]

What puzzles me is WHY would anyone think to pray for such a thing?

I chose to pray for several nearly impossible things, because I wanted to be sure that praying does not work. So I prayed for those things and hoped for them not happen.

 

[pocoloco]

But there are standard treatments for OCD (exposure and response prevention) and some people are also helped by medication. It is definitely one of the easier disorders to treat! My advice would be to hang in there and continue to get help. There is a way out, and many other people with mental obsessions have gotten better. I wish you all the best.

Hey,
Thank you very much for you respond. I think I have been doing this exposure and response prevention-thing (like deliberatly cursing people)... and now I am a mess, because I blame everything bad that happend to them afterwards on me.
One says "Feel the fear and do it anyway" and I did because at this time I believed my fear was only due OCD. Now I am not that sure. I still hope there is OCD but I want to be realy sure and I think I will have to learn more about quantum theory and the supernatural before I can feel safe again. That's why I am here.

 

[Stray Cat]

I chose to pray for several nearly impossible things, because I wanted to be sure that praying does not work. So I prayed for those things and hoped for them not happen.

The line I find hard to draw is that between "praying for impossible things" and praying for things that are unlikely to happen. In praying for a "river to flow backwards" you choose something VERY SPECIFIC! and in that specificness was an unlikeliness, not an impossibility.

As has been pointed out, it was a very 'random' thing to pray for.
I'm sure many other possibilities (or in this case impossibilities) were available to you?

Or was it a case that you made a general call for 'impossibility' and during the rain, something happened to the river and you took that as the answer to your unspecific prayer? Then in a case of revisionism, you altered your perception of the preceding events to fit.

 

[pocoloco]

Maybe it's not so unusual to have a river flowing backwards? I'm sure your prayers had nothing to do with it. Most likely the storm drain system was overwhelmed, causing water to flow backwards out of the system to escape the pressure inside the system.

I think it is unusual, but may be not impossible. None of us has seen this happening before. My parents neighbour had been living in that town for 80 years and never seen anything like this happening.... but then she said she had never in her life seen it rain that much. It is a very small river.

A lot of people saw it. It really happened and people have been talking about it. I am not lying. It happened.

...and if anyone thinks I must be lying or deluded, because things like this do not happen: in that case I will apply for the one Million dollar challenge, because I have proof it happened. A lot of people saw it.