The Heiwa Challenge

[Heiwa]

Heiwa doesn't even know HOW the Ronan Plaza collapsed, so it amuses me how you can so carelessly overlook that idiocy.



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Good Bye

??? Ronan Plaza collapse? Someone lit a match, there was an explosion, probably a shock wave in the structure, and some local failures in the corner of the structure. Ronan Plaza does not qualify for The Heiwa Challenge, which is ended anyway. Nobody managed to find a structure where the big part is destroyed when dropping a small part on it.

 

[releaseeabode]

??? Ronan Plaza collapse? Someone lit a match, there was an explosion, probably a shock wave in the structure, and some local failures in the corner of the structure. Ronan Plaza does not qualify for The Heiwa Challenge, which is ended anyway. Nobody managed to find a structure where the big part is destroyed when dropping a small part on it.

Closed but not forgotten.

This thread reminds me of politicians who, when faced with a question they don't like and don't want to answer, just go ahead and answer a different question in the hope that by the time they have finished you will have forgotten what the original question was.

Ronan's and Bailey's Crossroads both ask questions but, the answers to neither of them offers an answer to your Challenge.

 

[Baylor]

This reminds me of a poster, The LoneBoduean who had a grudge against the JREF forums and was hapless in addressing the posters arguments.

 

[releaseeabode]

??? Ronan Plaza collapse? Someone lit a match, there was an explosion, probably a shock wave in the structure, and some local failures in the corner of the structure. Ronan Plaza does not qualify for The Heiwa Challenge, which is ended anyway. Nobody managed to find a structure where the big part is destroyed when dropping a small part on it.

Simpler than that, the structure was incompetently built and by evidence of the fact that a domestic gas explosion ripped it down, the structure was not capable of supporting itself after a minor lateral impact (breaking one of the rules of the Heiwa challenge).

I have fallen in love with the Ignore function. The sensation is similar to what you feel when you close a double glazed door to cut out the noise from a bunch of unruly kids.

 

[Baylor]

Simpler than that, the structure was incompetently built and by evidence of the fact that a domestic gas explosion ripped it down, the structure was not capable of supporting itself after a minor lateral impact (breaking one of the rules of the Heiwa challenge).

I have fallen in love with the Ignore function. The sensation is similar to what you feel when you close a double glazed door to cut out the noise from a bunch of unruly kids.

Heiwa did not operationally define "minor lateral impact" which means the rule and challenge is worthless.

 

[Heiwa]

Heiwa did not operationally define "minor lateral impact" which means the rule and challenge is worthless.

Didn't I? The energy applied in the lateral impact would deflect the structure elastically sideways without causing any failures. Anyway, The Challenge is closed. But do not whine! I will soon start another one!

 

[JohnG]

I have fallen in love with the Ignore function.

Evidently. You're starting to remind me of the creepy kid Billy Mumy played in that Twilight Zone episode. Just think; a few thousand more clicks of the mouse and all you'll have left to converse with here are the people who unconditionally agree with everything you say. All two of them.

Personally I think the Ignore function is sort of childish and counterproductive. Doesn't it make a thread hard to follow when you don't know half of what is being said? Surely even people you object to are capable of the odd useful insight or pearl of wisdom?

 

[Baylor]

Didn't I? The energy applied in the lateral impact would deflect the structure elastically sideways without causing any failures. Anyway, The Challenge is closed. But do not whine! I will soon start another one!

Exactly! Evidently you did not quantify the deflection or the energy. Evidently you did not explain this which evidently means the Heiwa challenge is evidently worthless!

 

[Heiwa]

Evidently. You're starting to remind me of the creepy kid Billy Mumy played in that Twilight Zone episode. Just think; a few thousand more clicks of the mouse and all you'll have left to converse with here are the people who unconditionally agree with everything you say. All two of them.

Personally I think the Ignore function is sort of childish and counterproductive. Doesn't it make a thread hard to follow when you don't know half of what is being said? Surely even people you object to are capable of the odd useful insight or pearl of wisdom?

I use the ignore function when someone has posted a certain number of off-topic posts and/or plainly insulting posts. It makes the thread much easier to follow. BTW - Challenge is closed! Nobody managed to produce a self-destructing structure. Hopefully you learnt something from it?

 

[Baylor]

Nobody managed to produce a self-destructing structure. Hopefully you learnt something from it?

I sure did. Anyone who compares a skyscraper to lemons is ******* crazy.

 

[Heiwa]

Exactly! Evidently you did not quantify the deflection or the energy. Evidently you did not explain this which evidently means the Heiwa challenge is evidently worthless!

From post #1, point 4. Before drop test the structure shall be stable, i.e. carry itself and withstand a small lateral impact at top without falling apart. Connections between elements cannot rely solely on friction.

I would say that flying a plane into the structure close to top just causing local failures is 'a small lateral impact'. So WTC 1 and 2 passed that condition. Anyway, this Challenge is closed as nobody, incl. GWB, Condi, FEMA, NIST, ASCE, NASA, Purdue, Bazant, Seffen and Mackey (+ everybody else) didn't manage to propose a suitable structure as per post #1. It really is a pity as it would have removed the OCT from the agenda.

 

[Baylor]

From post #1, point 4. Before drop test the structure shall be stable, i.e. carry itself and withstand a small lateral impact at top without falling apart. Connections between elements cannot rely solely on friction.

I would say that flying a plane into the structure close to top just causing local failures is 'a small lateral impact'. So WTC 1 and 2 passed that condition. Anyway, this Challenge is closed as nobody, incl. GWB, Condi, FEMA, NIST, ASCE, NASA, Purdue, Bazant, Seffen and Mackey (+ everybody else) didn't manage to propose a suitable structure as per post #1. It really is a pity as it would have removed the OCT from the agenda.

You would say? That's it. No criteria defined? No threshold given? That's about as unscientific as playing with lemons, Andres. Evidently, the Heiwa challenge is worthless.

 

[JohnG]

I use the ignore function when someone has posted a certain number of off-topic posts and/or plainly insulting posts. It makes the thread much easier to follow. BTW - Challenge is closed! Nobody managed to produce a self-destructing structure. Hopefully you learnt something from it?

Oh, I've learned plenty:

Scale matters

Velocity matters

Mass matters

And maybe most importantly:
You can't cobble together any old random collection of objects to construct a scale model of a skyscraper collapse while at the same time ignoring scale demonstrations that actually are useful (e.g., domino effect or house of cards) in helping to understand how such a collapse could have occurred.

 

[EnJaySee]

I use the ignore function when someone has posted a certain number of off-topic posts and/or plainly insulting posts. It makes the thread much easier to follow. BTW - Challenge is closed! Nobody managed to produce a self-destructing structure. Hopefully you learnt something from it?

Since structural engineering isn't my profession, I actually learned a lot about dynamic loads, newton's third law, conservation of momentum among other things that I would've learned in high school physics if I wasn't so busy screwing around when I was a teenager.

But what I really find fascinating is the psychology behind the various people who post in this forum. Some almost always post intelligent and insightfully. Some are just looking to pick a fight or are trolling. Some refuse to budge from their stance despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary and some are just insane. It's the ones who refuse to budge despite being proven wrong that keeps me coming back. It's like when you see something disgusting and you can't look away.

Anyway, back to the Challenge. I learned that if you build a pyramid of lemons, lift the top three and drop it, the pyramid will collapse (yes, I actually did this. We have a lemon tree in the backyard). But then again, I already knew that was going to happen. I was really bored that day.

I also learned that some people who should know better will continue to believe whatever the hell they want to believe regardless of proven mathematics and therefore I am more intelligent than they are.

 

[Heiwa]

Since structural engineering isn't my profession, I actually learned a lot about dynamic loads, newton's third law, conservation of momentum among other things that I would've learned in high school physics if I wasn't so busy screwing around when I was a teenager.

But what I really find fascinating is the psychology behind the various people who post in this forum. Some almost always post intelligent and insightfully. Some are just looking to pick a fight or are trolling. Some refuse to budge from their stance despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary and some are just insane. It's the ones who refuse to budge despite being proven wrong that keeps me coming back. It's like when you see something disgusting and you can't look away.

Anyway, back to the Challenge. I learned that if you build a pyramid of lemons, lift the top three and drop it, the pyramid will collapse (yes, I actually did this. We have a lemon tree in the backyard). But then again, I already knew that was going to happen. I was really bored that day.

I also learned that some people who should know better will continue to believe whatever the hell they want to believe regardless of proven mathematics and therefore I am more intelligent than they are.

You managed to one-way crush down a pyramide of lemons by dropping a top three (four, five?) on it. Fantastic. Sorry, the Challenge is closed but tell me - how many lemons were below the top?

 

[Grizzly Bear]

The collapse wasn't a consequence of "bad design" or errors in structural analysis. If structural analysis is thought of as a process of predicting the behavior of structures, the Ronan Point incident is a modeling failure. Progressive collapse is rare to begin with and it wasn't well understood back in the 1960's. This doesn't make the Ronan Point Plaza "badly built."

A book I have puts it this way: The fundamental lesson for structural analysis is that if you justify the analysis model on the basis of a code of practice, then you must be sure that the system you are designing is within the scope of the code.

Since release has half the subforum participants on insta-ignore, I doubt he'll have the opportunity to have a look. I often paraphrase my responses from books pertinent to what I'm discussing, and in this case I took a direct quote from it as well:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Mw...esult&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

For anyone interested...

 

[EnJaySee]

You managed to one-way crush down a pyramide of lemons by dropping a top three (four, five?) on it. Fantastic. Sorry, the Challenge is closed but tell me - how many lemons were below the top?

I don't really care about the Challenge. However, for some reason I keep thinking up hypothetical situations where you're correct. Such as my suggestion in another thread to remove gravity. Or even reduce gravity. I wonder what force gravity would have to be for you to be correct?

This is just the way I think.

 

[Justin39640]

hmm my model crushed down
i want my million
but it looks like about 200 people beat me to it
still a good payday when you split it up
thanks H man

 

[Edx]

hmm my model crushed down
i want my million
but it looks like about 200 people beat me to it
still a good payday when you split it up
thanks H man

I take it the structure stays up with the piece you removed stil intact?

 

[beachnut]

... BTW - Challenge is closed! ...

LOL - you were proved wrong on 911 before you made up your delusional physics to make up your moronic axiom. I thought your delusions were being published; what happen?