What if Michael Moore had not made "Sicko"?

[Brainster]

I'm reminded here of the turd in the punchbowl example; suppose you have a delicious fruit punch, and in the middle of it is floating a turd. Not many people would drink from it, right?

I see people here urging us to ignore the turd, and taste the punch anyway. Maybe the part on Cuba is suspect. And perhaps the French bit was irrelevant. But how about the rest of the punch?

 

[Rolfe]

Yeah, sorry. I can't trust the content so it forfeits the luxury of getting its substance examined AFAIC. I find the method of presentation awful. It (the film) adds up to a big "negative asset" for those who are in favour of universal health coverage in my view. (And I think it is obvious I am one of those).

Sorry

Well, you see, that's what I'd like to examine. I'd like to see if I might come round to agreeing with you. But since I'm not prepared to damn it for its presentation alone, which has in any case been done to death on other threads, I'm afraid I want to look at the specifics.

Rolfe.

 

[brodski]

I watched Sicko last night for the first time, I hadn’t watched it before for a couple of reasons- firstly I am no a fan of Moore’s films (although I found his satirical TV shows amusing) and secondly I’m not the target audience of this film, it is clearly aimed at Americans who live with the health system which he is attempting to critique.

As a documentary I think the film fails, it is produced in an overly mawkish manner which is typical of Moore’s films (using Barbers Adagio for Stings, over the testimony to congress of the doctor who confessed that denying lifesaving treatment to a client of the insurance company she had worked for made her career, was almost too crass for words) there is very little actual information in the film, just superficially examined anecdotes- and plenty of appeals to emotion.


He also spends time on total irrelevancies such as the French benefits system.


There was no examination of hard data, no real examination of the criticisms of various UHC systems (even to debunk them), and generally very few facts.

I suspect that the film failed to get its message across to its target audience (Americans), and I suspect this is for two reasons.


Most Americans know that the stories of Americans being failed by US healthcare are not typical- nor are they presented as such in the film. Secondly it seems that the failings of the US healthcare system are not unknown to most Americans, and so the film fails to have the shock value that it does when view by people (such as me) who have lived their whole life under UHC systems.

Any viewer watching the film is left with two questions:

1) Are the depictions of the events and practices relating to the American healthcare industry accurate (even if not typical)

2) Are the depictions of UHC systems accurate?


Given Moore’s clear addenda with this film, and his less than rigorous commitment to the truth in the past, and given the lack of substantial data presented in the film- I have no easy way of answering 1. And I think that Rolfe is in the same position, hence her thread.


Given my experience of the NHS and talking to people about other UHC systems I know that the depictions of the European UHC systems are accurate, he has not misrepresented them to in order to make the US system look bad.

I understand that Moore is a propagandist, very leftwing by US standards, takes a casual approach to the truth in his films and is vastly overweight, but are the examples given in this film accurate?

Are people with health insurance who get cancer told by (private sector) bureaucrats that chemo and or radiotherapy will not be funded?

Are parents denied life saving care for their children because the ambulanced took the kid to the nearest hospital, which happened to not have a contract with the parents’ insurance company?

And if they are accurate, how representative are these examples?

 

[Cicero]

OT: the healthcare in France as depicted in Sicko is actual and true.

Really? M&M neglected to mention this little tidbit.

"The French government's decision to tie medical care to legal status has cut off about 400,000 illegal immigrants from access to treatment."

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/197745/france_illegal_immigrants_lose_health_care_under_new_law/

And this:

"France must make big changes to its health system in order to cut waste and increase efficiency, a government-commissioned report is warning.

The report says citizens must pay more and doctors must alter their behaviour.

Failure to do so could add 66 billion euros a year to France's public budget deficit by 2020, it adds.

The warning comes after thousands of health workers protested on Thursday over staff shortages and the "creeping privatisation" of the health system. "


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3423159.stm

 

[Francesca R]

Well, you see, that's what I'd like to examine. I'd like to see if I might come round to agreeing with you. But since I'm not prepared to damn it for its presentation alone.

It's not the "presentation" per se, but the faking stuff, lying, distortion and all the other stuff you apparently forgive because (paraphrasing) "its showbusiness FFS, and it's fighting a loony right wing that just does the same."

Puts me right off.

 

[Rolfe]

It's not the "presentation" per se, but the faking stuff, lying, distortion and all the other stuff you apparently forgive because (paraphrasing) "its showbusiness FFS, and it's fighting a loony right wing that just does the same."

Puts me right off.

You are apparently aware of more of the provenance of these segments than I am. So far, we've picked the most questionable segments to look at as far as I can see. There are an awful lot more.

Moore is intemperate, biassed, and prone to presentational tricks.

But does he have a point?

Rolfe.

 

[Cicero]

You are apparently aware of more of the provenance of these segments than I am. So far, we've picked the most questionable segments to look at as far as I can see. There are an awful lot more.

Moore is intemperate, biassed, and prone to presentational tricks.

But does he have a point?

Rolfe.

Other than to line his own pockets?

 

[Francesca R]

You are apparently aware of more of the provenance of these segments than I am.

You're as aware as me of the "boat trip to Gitmo". You can just swallow it better.

 

[dann]

Michael Moore, obviously, has no problem with endlessly ridiculing George W. Bush, but a Cuban making a similar film ridiculing Castro would end up in prison pretty quickly. Somehow, I think this irony may be lost on him.

Is this based on any knowledge of conditions in Cuba? I don't want to derail this thread, but I'd recommend that you watch a couple of Cuba's satirical movies from the last couple of decades:
Strawberry & Chocolate
The Waiting List
Guananamera
Honey for Oshun (not as satirical as the others)
I think that they are all available from Amazon and other distributors.

I was in Cuba in the summer of 2006 when Fidel Castro was reported ill. A few weeks earlier I watched a satirical programme on Cuban TV, a parody of the programme Mesa Redonda. Several prominent Cubans, one of them Fidel Castro, were parodied, and the Cubans I watched it with found it hilarious. I was not yet able to understand enough Spanish to really enjoy it, but I noticed that the actor portraying Fidel Castro did a very good job of imitating his gestures and tone of voice. And whenever 'Castro' praised the successes of the Cuban revolution - the lights in the studio went out.
Cuban newspapers aren't uncritical either.

PS I found this excerpt from a similar piece of satire on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf4fNUHXYQs
(There are more, apparently.)

 

[Safe-Keeper]

i must say, i liked the Docu from Frontline, sick around the world, alot better than Sicko.

I have, in fact, seen both Sick Around the World and Sick around America, and enjoyed both. To be frank, I loved Sick Around the World for, as you said, its constructive angle, how it showed off other right-wing countries and how they handled health care from the point of view of an American citizen. Its message was basically, "OK, so you don't want socialism, how about we look at how the other capitalist countries handle things, then?". Not that I necessarily agree with calling the UK a right-wing country, but I still really liked the docu.

Sick Around America is more like what I expect Sicko to be. It has the personal anecdotes, and talks about how the US system leaves many unprotected, even, as Rolfe says, the people who have insurance. I find it a whole lot easier to watch than Moore's movies, though - it doesn't play on emotion as much, nor does it use cheap stunts; it's not drenched in anti-Americanism or semi-conspiracy theories, and Around the World makes me a lot more positive to the makers in general.

 

[BeAChooser]

Now I don't know if you're right about the Cuban system being two-tier. I would like to see evidence of that.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/04/cubas_prolife_heroine.html

Dr. Hilda Molina, a top neurosurgeon, had it all in Castro's Cuba. She was honored in the medical profession, wrote for international medical journals, got invited to a lot of conferences, took a seat in Cuban parliament, and was a confidant of Fidel Castro.
 
She threw it all away over two things, though:

1) Her objection to Cuba's two—tier medical care system that enabled rich foreigners to come in for treatment at first—class facilities in Cuba, paying in dollars, while ordinary Cubans got some of the most atrocious medical care on the planet.


http://ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=252029334109196

Castro's Special Care

December 26, 2006

Nothing exposes the myth of Cuba's vaunted health care system quite like the news that ailing dictator Fidel Castro refuses to use it. Instead, he prefers care from Spain. What hypocrisy.



... snip ...

For years, Castro has made political hay over his health care as a means of amassing international kudos. In fact, he's been aggressive about it in the last couple of years, taking advantage of advancing elections in several countries.

He gutted Cuba's mangy health care system by shipping Cuban doctors throughout the hemisphere to provide "free" care to other nations' poor to help win presidencies for his favored candidates.
Castro also used his portable doctors as a propaganda club against the U.S.

... snip ...

Now, it seems, Castro doesn't need the help either, opting instead for a free-world doctor whose accomplishments were developed in an atmosphere of open inquiry and market forces.

... snip ...

Somehow, among all those abundant doctors, Castroites couldn't find even one competent enough to care for their ailing leader. Cuban training is no match for that found in the free world.

Nor is it plentiful. A look at the health care Cubans get can be seen in refugee photos posted on Web sites like therealcuba.com and in the studies of the U.S. National Institutes of Health.

In a 2003 report, the NIH's American Journal of Public Health found that 33% of all Cuban refugee children have intestinal parasites, 21% have lead poisoning and all have higher-than-normal levels of disease.

A separate by Baylor University found that Cuban refugees' primary risks are malnutrition, tuberculosis and dengue fever.

Meanwhile, during the 1996 Atlanta Olympics, elite Cuban athletes showed the highest use of the Olympic system's free health clinics. Medics reported that Cuban athletes' long-neglected health needs went as far as a lack of even simple dentistry.

Castro, however, has no such problems. Ordinary Cubans may get abysmal care, but under the country's two-tier medical system, the communist party elite do. And if you are Castro, you can tap services from the capitalist world.

The visit from Spain tells us all we need to know about Castrocare — a mythical system that never lived up to its reputation and should be exposed for the socialist failure that it is.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1120325

Foreigners seeking medical treatment are flocking to Havana, lured by advertisements and lower costs. Cuban officials have said that 3500 foreigners came for health care last year.

... snip ...

Cuba's increasing promotion of health tourism has roused criticism by those who see a two tier health system developing. In a country with one of the highest concentrations of doctors in the world, foreigners and Cuban party elite receive first class service. But ordinary Cubans must make do with dilapidated facilities, outdated equipment, and meagre medical supplies, in part because of the longstanding US embargo against Cuba.

http://www.cnsnews.com/Public/Content/Article.aspx?rsrcid=50307

Cuba’s health care system has been criticized for its high doctor-to-patient ratio, as well as poor hospital conditions and lack of adequate drugs for treatment, including basic items such as aspirin. There essentially is a two-tier health care system in Cuba: one for tourists and government elites and one for the common people.

As the National Post has reported: “After the Soviet Union stopped sending Cuba US$5-billion in annual funding to prop up its economy, the health care system, like most social services, fell on difficult times. In common with other buildings on the Communist island, hospitals are falling apart, surgeons lack basic supplies and must re-use latex gloves. Patients must buy their own sutures on the black market and provide bedsheets and food for extended hospital stays.”


“Antibiotics, one of the most valuable commodities on the cash-strapped Communist island, are in extremely short supply and available only on the black market. Aspirin can be purchased only at government-run dollar stores, which carry common medications at a huge markup in U.S. dollars,” reported The Post. “This puts them out of reach of most Cubans, who are paid little and in pesos. Their average wage is 300 pesos per month, about $12.”

http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm "THIS IS THE FAMOUS 'GREAT AND FREE HEALTHCARE' THAT REGULAR CUBANS RECEIVE"

You asked and you receive.

Nevertheless, even if that is true, does it make the US system one iota better?

Perhaps not. But this does.

Per Capita GDP ... US ($48000) ... Cuba ($9,500)

 

[ravdin]

Is this based on any knowledge of conditions in Cuba?

I was thinking of the scores of dissidents and journalists who have been rounded up and given heavy prison sentences for activities the Cuban government considers subversive. I would call your attention in particular to a mass crackdown in 2003 where the regime imprisoned 75 individuals including journalists, librarians, and democracy activists. I would suggest that Moore is at least as critical in his film of America's leaders and system of government as these political prisoners, who he conveniently ignores, are of theirs.

From Amnesty International:

In the trials, dissidents were accused of engaging in activities which the authorities perceived as subversive and damaging to Cuba’s internal order and/or beneficial to the embargo and related US measures against Cuba. Concretely, the prosecution accused them of activities such as publishing articles critical of economic, social or human rights issues in Cuba; being involved in unofficial groups considered by the authorities as counter-revolutionary; or having contacts with individuals viewed as hostile to Cuba’s interests. After a detailed review of the available legal documents in the 75 cases, Amnesty International considered the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of conscience(6) and called for their immediate and unconditional release.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Spring_(Cuba)
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/a...34-11dd-ab95-a13b602c0642/amr250052004en.html

 

[BeAChooser]

The statistics Moore cited were from the World Health Organisation. Being discussed in this other thread. ... snip ...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150719

I hope all readers note how bogus Moore citing the WHO really was, given the MANY flaws and obviously inherent bias in the WHO methodology pointed out in that thread.

 

[Cicero]

Is this based on any knowledge of conditions in Cuba? I don't want to derail this thread, but I'd recommend that you watch a couple of Cuba's satirical movies from the last couple of decades:
Strawberry & Chocolate
The Waiting List
Guananamera
Honey for Oshun (not as satirical as the others)
I think that they are all available from Amazon and other distributors.

I was in Cuba in the summer of 2006 when Fidel Castro was reported ill. A few weeks earlier I watched a satirical programme on Cuban TV, a parody of the programme Mesa Redonda. Several prominent Cubans, one of them Fidel Castro, were parodied, and the Cubans I watched it with found it hilarious. I was not yet able to understand enough Spanish to really enjoy it, but I noticed that the actor portraying Fidel Castro did a very good job of imitating his gestures and tone of voice. And whenever 'Castro' praised the successes of the Cuban revolution - the lights in the studio went out.
Cuban newspapers aren't uncritical either.

PS I found this excerpt from a similar piece of satire on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf4fNUHXYQs
(There are more, apparently.)

"Strawberry And Chocolate" directed by Juan Carlos Tabio

"Made during the euphemistically titled "special period" when the country was brought to its knees after the collapse of the Soviet bloc, Cuba's banker and chief trading partner, the Oscar-nominated Strawberry And Chocolate was groundbreaking on two counts. First, it dared to criticize the Castro government, and second, through the hilarious but sagacious gay hero Diego (Jorge Perugorría), it helped bring about a much-needed change in Cuba's oppressive and homophobic attitude towards the gay community."

"Waiting List" directed by Juan Carlos Tabio

"In the film, people waiting in a bus station start building a little society of their own. Some suggest that the society created resembles the Communist ideal that the Cuban government has tried to accomplish, whilst others see the film as a critique of the failures of the Cuban system."


"Guananamera" directed by Juan Carlos Tabio

"In this satiric road movie from Cuba, Yoyita (Conchita Brando), a well-known singer living in Havana, travels with her niece Georgina (Mirta Ibarra), a college professor, to the village of her birth, where Yoyita is reunited with Candido (Raul Eguren), whom she loved as a young woman. When Yoyita and Candido meet for the first time in 50 years, they're thrilled to discover that the flame of passion still burns within them. At every stop, the group meets a few of the people in each town (especially Mariano, who seems to have a girlfriend in every village in Cuba) and they share their thoughts on faith, politics, and love."


" Tabio's second film since his collaborations with the late, and revered, director Tomas Gutierrez Alea. Strawberry and Chocolate (1993) and Guantanamara (1995) remain among the most interesting and challenging films of Alea's distinguished career. Each was a popular hit in Cuba and proved important to political and cultural debate and controversy. Both continued Cuban cinema's tradition of comic critique of bureaucracy and intolerance within the Revolution."

It's OK for one, or two, directors, to criticize the communist bureaucracy in a non-threatening satirical fashion, and yet Castro still remains the only leader of Cuba for the last 50 years. The reason Castro and his brother couldn't care less about these films is because the Cuban audience has remained diffident and unpersuaded by what they see on the silver screen.

 

[Dr Adequate]

So I'd like to propose some ground rules. We discuss Sicko, but we leave Moore right out of it. Pretend someone else made it. Joe Bloggs, someone you've never heard of.

Joe Bloggs is fat.

 

[applecorped]

You should all know that Michael Moore's best documentary was his first........Canadian Bacon.

 

[dann]

Nevertheless, even if that is true, does it make the US system one iota better?

Perhaps not. But this does.

Per Capita GDP ... US ($48000) ... Cuba ($9,500)

I guess that you think that the Danish system beats the US any time, then?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
Interesting ...

I haven't got time for more today, but I'd still like to mention that the weeklies in Denmark usually mention the kind of healthcare that, for instance, the queen Margrethe or the current premier receives, and nobody seems to find it strange that it appears to be a hell of a lot better than what ordinary people receive.
I also don't think that Americans find it particularly strange that guys like Bush or Obama (or Michael Jackson) receive more healthcare a month than most people get in a lifetime. That they don't have to spend any time in waiting rooms alongside welfare mothers and their offspring is also something that doesn't appear to be considered a gross injustice by most people.

The world's a strange place ...

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Wow, off-topic, much? Someone start a Who Does the Most for Whom - the 2009 JREF Pissing Contest thread for Cicero so this one can get back on track.

I guess that you think that the Danish system beats the US any time, then?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...al)_per_capita
Interesting ...

We should all do as our Luxembourg overlords demand, for theirs is clearly the world's best-- wait, what's any of this go to do with Sicko!?

 

[Cicero]

wait, what's any of this go to do with Sicko!?

Since Rolfe's challenge to demonstrate M&M's "dishonest techniques in Sicko" has been met, what more do you want to know about "Sicko?"

 

[Rolfe]

Cicero, my aim was to examine the individual segments in the film and see how well or badly they stood up to scrutiny. I was already aware that the Cuba sequence was questionable, though I'm not convinced it didn't make its point.

Are you denying that some people injured on the rescue and cleanup efforts at the Twin Towers are finding it difficult to secure healthcare?
Are you denying that the USA boasts about the great healthcare it provides for terrorist prisoners, while its own free and innocent citizens go without?

Because it seems to me that this is what is being ignored in all the bickering about whether or not a show was put on for the boat people.

I was also very well aware of the Tracy Pierce misrepresentation - perhaps you failed to note that I was the only one who actually read the letters shown onscreen? However, I also point out that all this sequence does is demonstrate that the USA operates "rationing" of very expensive interventions of questionable benefit, in just the same way as right-wingers criticise universal healthcare for. That sequence is exactly equivalent to what Sarah Palin is calling "death panels".

We also mentioned Larry and Donna Smith. I note that they were bankrupted by copays and deductibles. I also note that "high-deductible" coverage is being promoted by many right-wingers as a solution to the problem of delivering insurance cover to the low-paid. I submit that Larry and Donna are what you are going to get if you do that.

Now I'm going to bed.

Rolfe.