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What if Michael Moore had not made "Sicko"?

Doesn't matter. Posts are subject to reply, regardless of whether they are hit-and-run posts or serious contributions.

Maybe, but in the context of a thread that Rolfe seems to be intent on keeping within a particular set of parameters, do you not think that your post was a bit, at the very least, unproductive?

Nice dodge though.
 
Doesn't matter. Posts are subject to reply, regardless of whether they are hit-and-run posts or serious contributions.

Strawman noted.

?

Rolfe doesn't really want to confront any examples of M&M's "dishonest techniques in Sicko."

Amend that to read any examples of "dishonest techniques in Sicko" that are not about Cuba.
 
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Gaaahhhh! I need to sleep. No, I can't tell if he's just being disgruntled or not. Some of what he says is very plausible. It does seem likely the Cubans would have put on a special show for the "boat people".

If so, Moore is being disingenuous. So, scrub Cuba. Let's agree that's been exaggerated and misrepresented. I recall that was the segment that criticism concentrated on before.

It's only one segment though. How about the rest?

Rolfe.

Does this mean that the challenge to demonstrate M&M's "dishonest techniques in Sicko" have been validated? Good. Now on to France.....
 
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Gord, is any of that available online? Any way of checking what Moore is presenting would be good.

Rolfe.

I have in the past tried a desultory Google search or two but this is not my pony to ride. The way to find the information is to subscribe to the online version of CR and search back issues. I do not have such a subscription.
 
I felt that some of the footage from France was off topic. I mean, who cares if the French have months of sick leave paid for by the government, or if the government will send someone round to clean your house if you have a new baby? It all got a bit, hey, look what a utopia this is! at that point.

However, it did illustrate something quite interesting. In spite of the very comprehensive healthcare system, the government still has the resources to provide other benefits such as sick leave and assistance to new mothers. And if the people were so heavily taxed that they didn't have a bean left for themselves, they hid it remarkably well.

Are there any French members here in the forum who can comment, I wonder
There are very few French members I've seen on the forum, but "European" suffices (which you are too!) for part of the answer. The EU mandates that pregnant employees have the right to at least 14 weeks of pregnancy leave.

And yes, many (European) countries have rules that employers have to continue wage payments (or say 80% of the wages) during sick leave. As well as public insurance for home care, home nursing, and nursing homes.

I don't want to mess up this thread with such details; you want me to start a new thread on this?
 
My main complaint against Sicko was that some of the "horror stories" he presented as failings of the US health system weren't specific to the US.

Here's Robert Bazell's take on Moore's presentation of the case of Julie Pierce, whose husband was denied a bone marrow transplant to treat his kidney cancer.

The bone marrow transplant that the Pierce family sought has never been shown to help. A few doctors have suggested it might. The National Institutes of Health is now running two clinical trials to try to find out. Still, it is an experimental concept with little scientific basis.

Pierce implies in the movie that her insurance company and the group that runs it — the board of directors of the hospital where she works — refused to pay for the treatment because she is white and her husband was black. Of course, we know nothing of the insurance company or board's motives. In the movie, neither speaks.

Almost any insurance plan would have turned down the request for an experimental treatment, with no proven value, costing tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. It is critical to note that the national health plans in Canada, Great Britain, France and Cuba that are featured in "Sicko" would also have turned down such treatment. No matter where he was getting his care, Tracy Pierce almost certainly would have died at a young age.

A horrifying example of what happens when treatments are based on anecdotes rather than science occurred in the 1980s. A few oncologists became convinced, on the basis of a handful of cases, that the best treatment for advanced breast cancer was a combination of bone marrow transplants and very high doses of chemotherapy. Insurance companies at first refused to pay, saying correctly that the treatment was experimental, unproven. As a result, the oncologists encouraged their patients to sue.

What jury could say no to a woman, often a young mother, when a doctor would testify that the treatment costing tens of thousands of dollars was her best chance for life?

When clinical trials of the bone marrow procedure were ultimately completed a decade later, they proved the procedure was actually killing the women faster than the breast cancer. More than 100,000 women underwent the marrow transplants involving untold suffering and billions of dollars in expenditures — money that could have been put to so many truly life-saving uses.


Oh, and Michael Moore is a big fatty beardy mcfactterson so anything he says must be false.
 
My main complaint against Sicko was that some of the "horror stories" he presented as failings of the US health system weren't specific to the US.

Here's Robert Bazell's take on Moore's presentation of the case of Julie Pierce, whose husband was denied a bone marrow transplant to treat his kidney cancer.


Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to do with these cases, and you've picked the one I had spotted as being certainly questionable. I did type out an analysis of it, but it's on my other computer so I'm doing this from memory.

The obviously sad thing about it was exactly as you say. Mr. Pierce had a fatal illness, which nothing was going to cure. And I agree, exactly the same thing could have happened in a universal heathcare system, certainly in the NHS.

The interesting thing about that case was that two letters relating to the appeals were shown onscreen, and the resolution is good enough to read what they say. I got a lot more information from doing that.

Although the letters were shown during the discussion about the possible bone marrow transplant, they weren't about that. They were about the previously-denied treatment, which was an experimental drug treatment. The letter said that Tracy Pierce had metastatic primary renal carcinoma. This had been treated by heminephrectomy, and he had had a course of the standard chemotherapy for the condition. Unfortunately that hadn't worked. So first, we must recognise that the insurance company had funded the standard treatment, surgery followed by chemotherapy.

The letter went into quite a bit of detail. It was from Tracy Pierce's consultant to the insurers, requesting funding for an experimental drug treatment, because the standard chemo hadn't worked. The experimental drug was described in detail, with the information that it had been the subject of a large grade II clinical trial by a very reputable group, and the results of that suggested it was an excellent option for Mr. Pierce. The point was made that a randomised placebo-controlled trial had not yet been done, but that Tracy didn't have time to wait for that to be organised.

The results quoted from the clinical trial were variable. Only a minority of patients got spectacularly better, although 70% were said to have shown "some benefit". The awful thing was, as far as I could see, it was another life-extending treatment, and not really expected to produce a permanent cure.

The second letter was the refusal for that treatment.

Should they have funded it? I have no idea. However, from my limited experience of the NHS, I would have thought a well-argued appeal like that was in with a good chance, especially in a patient in his thirties. The system for making these decisions in the NHS is fairly open, and one such session was actually broadcast as part of a recent documentary. The senior consultants had a very difficult job to do, deciding just how much of the common good fund should be spent on a new and expensive drug. It went to a "yes" by one vote. Nevertheless such an NHS panel, with access to the full facts such as Tracy Pierce's insurance assessors had, might well have made exactly the same decision as they did.

[Aside - the son-in-law of someone I work with, who is a bit younger than Tracy Pierce, has recently been diagnosed with some sort of lymphoid cancer. I didn't follow all the details, but his NHS consultant wanted to use a similar unapproved drug on him. This went before the appropriate committee, was considered, and was approved - because the consultant in question was willing to fund the treatment from his NHS research budget. I still have a very bad feeling about the prognosis in that case as well though.]

As far as the bone marrow transplant thing was concerned, can you spell "clutching at straws"? This was a desperate woman and her desperate husband, eager to try anything else that had any chance at all, and not as far as I can see being realistic about the prognosis. If anything was demonstrated by that, it was how much difference some end-of-life counselling might have made.

So I agree, this one falls. The only question I have is, would an NHS decision panel have allowed the experimental drug, and all I can say is, maybe. It's perferctly possible exactly the same scenario would have played out in the NHS, and then the right-wingers would have used it in exactly the same way. I would also criticise the patient counselling, which left Julie Pierce with apparently unrealistic hopes, and then a dreadfully negative overview of what had happened. And could that also happen in the NHS? Sure it could.

I do not know if this presentation in the film is deliberate dishonesty or not. I think not so much, but rather an uncritical acceptance of Julie Pierce's version of events. I would criticise Moore for not taking medical advice about whether Julie actually had the right end of the stick. However, if there are too many examples in this category, the whole thing becomes much more suspect.

Rolfe.
 
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Actually, this case in particular should be presented in the "death panel" thread. This is exactly what Sarah Palin was on about. And from examining the Pierce case, we can see that there seems to be little difference between US and UK procedure. The idea that such decisions don't have to be made in the USA at the moment is ridiculous. Of course they do, and the refused patients aren't happy.

The main difference as it appears to me is that in the USA it is usually the individual patient who is being judged. Should this money be spent on this person specifically. I think this might be where dear Sarah is getting her ideas from. In Britain, usually, it is the drug that is being judged, and the patient or patients involved are really test cases. So if the panel decides this drug is worth paying for, that's the decision made, and nobody else in a similar position has to repeat the fight.

It's unrealistic to pretend this doesn't happen in either system. Whether it's public funds or an insurance pool, the money is limited and other people also have needs. There has to be some limit on the unrealistic expectations of desperate people that every last avenue will be explored even at astronomical cost and only a remote chance of benefit.

The real problem is people who pretend that it only happens in the system they're arguing against, or that it's more prevalent in the system they're arguing against. Sarah Plain is assuming that if the government was involved in funding the system, that these decisions would be made much more harshly than at present. The best answer to that is that examination of comparable practices in systems such as the NHS does not bear out that assertion.

Rolfe.
 
i must say, i liked the Docu from Frontline, sick around the world, alot better than Sicko.

it is more about how to reform rather than just our system sucks.
 
It would have been better if Stossel had had anything constructive to propose though. He identified a great gushing wound, and then he suggested a small sticking-plaster.

Also, his "horror stories" from universal healthcare systems were far more dishonest than Moore's horror stories from the insurance industry - or so I think, we haven't finished with Moore yet.

Rolfe.
 
The Cuban sequence was presented dramatically, but that doesn't have much bearing on the facts.

  • Some Americans who were injured during the Twin Towers rescue and cleanup are finding it difficult to access healthcare. Yes or no?
  • The US government boasts about the high quality of healthcare provided to the terrorist detainees in Camp Delta. Yes or no?
  • Ordinary American citizens cannot access the care provided to the terrorists. Yes or no?
  • Even impoverished Cuba tries to provide healthcare to all its citizens. Yes or no?
These are the points I took from the sequence, and the points that are worth discussing. I don't think you've proved that the picture given of Cuban healthcare was significantly deceptive, but even if it were, the points above remain.

I visited a hospital in Guantánamo (not the base and not as a patient) three weeks ago and talked with some of the staff. I got the impression that Cuban healthcare workers do their utmost to make sure that patients get the best possible treatment, i.e. within the limits imposed upon them by the economy of the country and the US blockade, which affects Cuban healthcare in many unfortunate ways.

I don't doubt that tourists are probably able to buy better services than what ordinary Cubans are able to get for free, but I get the impression that this is an enterprise that serves to maintain the standard of basic healthcare provided to all Cubans.
The majority of Cuban doctors also seem to agree to the practice of having to serve abroad for a number of years after they have finished their education, and there is not doubt that Cuba earns a lot of goodwill from medical students from the rest of the continent getting their education for free. (I met, but didn't talk to, one from the Bronx.)
No wonder that some Cuban doctors abroad are tempted by offers from American hospitals to disregard what the majority of them consider to be their duty to their country and their people, however. And that some of these are willing to serve the propaganda of Miami newspapers and radio stations shouldn't surprise anybody either.
This is what Wikipedia has to say about Cuban healthcare: Cuba: Health, Healthcare in Cuba (see the section about health tourism)

I saw Sicko a couple of years ago, and I found one of the scenes in Cuba peculiar: One of the American patients said that she would hoard a lot of medicine that she could buy at a very low price in Cuba and bring it back to the USA where she could hardly afford the regular prices. I don't think that the Cubans would allow that. (Well, I actually hope that they wouldn't - and not because I don't wish the American woman well.)
 
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PS The scene from Norway left out in the final version of Sicko corresponds to my impression of conditions in that country, but maybe one the Norwegian posters would like to comment on that.
 
I'm on the fence about the Cuban sequence. On the one hand, it would be flying in the face of human nature to imagine that the Cubans wouldn't pull out all the stops to show a good face to the Americans. On the other hand, what was shown in the other documentary purely about the Cuban healthcare system I saw (pre-dated Sicko) wasn't all that dissimilar to what was seen in the film.

dann said:
I got the impression that Cuban healthcare workers do their utmost to make sure that patients get the best possible treatment, i.e. within the limits imposed upon them....


I think that was Moore's point. I don't know how well he made it, within the context that his hosts would inevitably be trying to show off their best endeavours. If you have a common aim to do the best for everyone, it's surprising how much you can achieve even with relatively little.

It's a shame that the "communism" overtones to this just send a lot of Americans screaming, rather than set them thinking.

And of course no matter how basic Cuban healthcare is, that really doesn't change the position on whether US healthcare is well organised or not.

Rolfe.
 
the only positive thing i ever heard about Cuba is theyr Helthcare system. and this from a wide range of sources, from socialists to World Bank Banksters.
 
Thankfully Cuba has arrested the lying dissident Dr. Darsi Ferrer so he can no longer spread his message of hate.
 
Some things I liked about Sicko:

  • Big points for pointing out how Hillary Clinton had been bought by the health insurance and drug companies.
  • I agree completely with his point that a population that's healthy, confident, and debt free is much harder to control- so it's in the government's interest if that doesn't happen.
Some things I didn't like so well:

  • Lots of cynical appeal to emotion with people crying on camera.
  • Distorted facts, many of which have already been addressed in this thread.
  • Unforgivable bolstering of the Castro regime. I see no reason we can't have UHC and free speech, but if I had to choose one or the other I'll pay for my own health care and keep my right to criticize the government. Michael Moore, obviously, has no problem with endlessly ridiculing George W. Bush, but a Cuban making a similar film ridiculing Castro would end up in prison pretty quickly. Somehow, I think this irony may be lost on him.
I'd like to take the opportunity at this time to point out that Michael Moore is fat.
 
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...
However, it did illustrate something quite interesting. In spite of the very comprehensive healthcare system, the government still has the resources to provide other benefits such as sick leave and assistance to new mothers. And if the people were so heavily taxed that they didn't have a bean left for themselves, they hid it remarkably well.

Are there any French members here in the forum who can comment, I wonder?

Rolfe.
I'm from Belgium, the country north of France and we have a similar healthcare system.

From :http://www.diplomatie.be/en/belgium/belgiumdetail.asp?TEXTID=49097
Health care
Workers have to join a health insurance scheme. The health insurance provided does not just cover the insured person but also any dependents (for example, children or an unemployed spouse). Virtually everyone is entitled to this insurance. Medical care is divided up into several categories and depending on the type of care, the cost is partially or fully refunded according to certain rates. Medication is also divided up into different categories.

There is a rule for self-employed persons according to which they are only insured for major risks. Those people who want to also be insured for minor risks can take out extra insurance with their health insurance scheme. In this case, the person is also partially reimbursed for consultations with doctors and specialists, certain dental treatments and so forth.

The contribution made by the individual towards the costs is referred to as the personal share. To make up for the increases in the personal share, the concept of maximum billing has been introduced. This provides a guarantee to patients that their annual expenditure for health care shall not exceed a certain limit, which is dependent on their income.

The reimbursement of medication and medical care is usually made at a later stage. The health care provider gives the insured person a certificate, which he/she must submit to his/her health insurance scheme in order to be reimbursed for the medical care provided. The person is reimbursed according to a rate which depends on the type of care, the health care provider and his/her personal status (widow(er), pensioner, older unemployed person, disabled).

The third party payment scheme is applied for care provided in hospital and for medication. In other words, the hospital only asks the patient to pay their personal share of the costs and collects the rest directly from the health insurance fund.

The same system is used for medication. The insured person presents the prescription to the pharmacist who only charges the client for their personal share. Some types of medication are free (usually those prescribed for serious or long-term illnesses) but for others, patients have to pay a certain percentage of the cost themselves, which is sometimes as much as 80%.

Work incapacity benefits
Workers who have been declared unfit to work as a result of illness receive a benefit. The majority of these people initially receive a guaranteed income paid by the employer, which is usually paid out for 14 days for workers and 30 days for employees.
After this period, they receive a work incapacity benefit, the amount of which varies depending on their previous salary and the duration of their incapacity to work.
For the first 30 days, the benefit represents 60% of their former income (with a ceiling). After the 30th day, single people and people with dependents continue to receive 60%, cohabiting couples only receive 55%. As from the first day of the seventh month, a minimum amount is paid that takes account of the person's family situation.
Self-employed persons who become ill receive a fixed sum.

Maternity and paternity
Women are entitled to a benefit during their maternity leave. For the first 30 days, the benefit represents 82% of their salary, after this time it amounts to 75% of the salary, subject to a ceiling. Women are entitled to 15 weeks maternity leave, eight of which must be taken after the birth and at least one week must be take before the date when the baby is due. When a child is born, the father has a right to 10 days paternity leave, seven of which are paid for by social security. These seven days are paid at 82% of the salary, subject to a ceiling. There is also a regulation for parental leave in the event of an adoption along with similar benefits.

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Included within the social security system are the systems that provide replacement incomes in the event of unemployment, retirement or the inability to work, support for financing costs such as child support or health care and annual paid holidays. In fact, there are three systems: one each for salaried workers, civil servants and self-employed persons.
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We are pretty heavy taxed, but we still manage to be the 8th richest country of Europe. I live in a region where 74% owns at least one house.

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OT: the healthcare in France as depicted in Sicko is actual and true.
 
what i also like is in the frensh part,

the Frensh governments fears its people, the US people fear its government.

i love the frensh and their protests.
 
when i remember correctly in Belgium we was also covered for Dental problems.
 
I'm "desperate" to discuss the substance of the film!
Yeah, sorry. I can't trust the content so it forfeits the luxury of getting its substance examined AFAIC. I find the method of presentation awful. It (the film) adds up to a big "negative asset" for those who are in favour of universal health coverage in my view. (And I think it is obvious I am one of those).

Sorry :)
 

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