The NORAD Response Revisited

Um, yes, I have a tendency to ressurect old threads.

For anyone not knowing (like me until yerterday), former 9/11 Commissioner Miles Kara is running a blog since June 2009, and he links this thread in his article on wargames.

It´s a useful blog. Kara provides concise explanations of the mystery plane and the role of TSD tracking of planes on 9/11.

Following Shenons book, Miles Kara was one of the few guys from John Farmers team who didn´t think of NORAD as a bunch of liars.
 
Excellent, progge. Lots of interesting info there! Be sure to PM this to gumboot, who will be muchly interested.

ETA: On the homepage, 911myths gets a nod as one of the top three sites to visit when investigating this stuff. I'll give Mike a shout about that.
 
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Just finished reading the "Transponders and Ghosts" entry. Fascinating.
 
Yes, it is fascinating. Definitely. The post that caught my eye is the "Chaos theory" meta-analysis, which lays out Kara's thoughts on how the situation went from straightforward to hell-in-a-handbasket like it did.

The theory of chaos has it that feedback, itself, is a contributor to chaos. Percival tells us that “oscillating systems become chaotic because they possess an element of ‘feedback.’” That element “generates complex dynamics in simple systems.” Hall, herself, broadens our understanding. Her summation is that “Chaos also seems to be responsible for maintaining order in the natural world. Feedback mechanisms not only introduce flexibility into living systems, sustaining delicate dynamical balances, but also promote nature’s propensity for self-organization.” And it is, metaphorically, precisely on this point of self-organization that events of 9-11 turned, there was little feedback and some of that which did exist was counter-productive, for example the circular reporting of the crash of AA 77.
(My Bolding)

This is one hell of a read. On the other hand, I think I owe pogge some revenge for giving me yet another timesuck to kill my hours with. ;)
 
As many of you know, I have created a NORAD document which, I humbly feel, pretty much buries any "NORAD stand down" argument.

Gumboot,

I had not seen that before. Very nicely done. Those of us who have indeed spent time in the military and who know the fog and uncertainty that accompanies events of this magnitude will appreciate your work.

The ignorance of the Troothers with regards to this event is highlighted by their belief in the "All Perfect and All Knowing Military", where every single layer of a military organization has the most perfect intelligence, the most timely information, the most prescient knowledge of everything involved and there exists not a shred of uncertainty or ambiguity about any and all events of the day.

I don't know how many times I had to go head to head with an idiot who would try to talk about how many military bases were within flying distance of the 9/11 airliners that day. Pointing out how many of these bases were equipment depots, logistical bases, army, navy or AF reserve bases with no operational aircraft present, or even a base like my own at Oceana in Virginia Beach which had over a hundred F-14s and F-18s, but not a one ready to be re-tasked as an alert NORAD-type interceptor, was always an exercise in futility. Seeing Griffin and others repeat these ignorant canards just adds fuel to the hilarious fire that is the Troother movement.

Again, nice job.
 
Um, yes, I have a tendency to ressurect old threads.

For anyone not knowing (like me until yerterday), former 9/11 Commissioner Miles Kara is running a blog since June 2009, and he links this thread in his article on wargames.

It´s a useful blog. Kara provides concise explanations of the mystery plane and the role of TSD tracking of planes on 9/11.

Following Shenons book, Miles Kara was one of the few guys from John Farmers team who didn´t think of NORAD as a bunch of liars.


Interesting, thank you progge.

Excellent, progge. Lots of interesting info there! Be sure to PM this to gumboot, who will be muchly interested.


Couple more mentions of Gumboot by Kara in the comments to the war games article:

Finally, concerning Clarke, he conflates terms. See my link to Andrew Burfeld’s work, posting as Gumboot. He explains quite thoroughly and accurately what was ongoing.

Andrew Burfeld’s rundown (he is Gumboot in the blog world) is accurate and the best existing source on the web. I link to it in my article. I understand from my cousin who follows the blog world that the fact that I happened to reference a JREF posting is suspect. I only did that because Burfeld’s posting is the most available version of his work. Consider him the source, not JREF.


Interesting that someone posting from the other side of the world from the US (i.e. Gumboot) can figure this stuff out, but truthers are still dazed and confused nearly 8 years later.
 
Thank you for the research Gumboot.
Though you realise that the kooks will ignore it all repeating their tired old nonsense immediately.
 
Posted link to it on ABOVE TOP SECRET - stir up the yahoos and crazies there...


Very informative
 
Hopefully the fact that my true name is revealed will not result in crazies knocking at my door... :D
 
By the way I am very glad that my work continues to be helpful to people. That's really all that matters.
 
Hey Gumboot, I just wanted to pop into this thread with a thought. What you've done here is really impressive, obviously. But the thread is strangely quiet. For my part at least, you should think of the quiet here as a manifestation of awe.

But now that I've broken my silence and am in here yakking - I'm Seriously not trying to JAQ off here, these are my best questions freely offered to be killed for good.

As someone who once believed in NORAD not-quite-stand-down-but-something-askew theories, I always did find the war games occuring that day as rather odd coincidences. VG and IIIRC Global Guardian at least are known to be happening, perhaps Northern Vigilance too. The level of suspicion I invested was out of whack, but in your opinion of wargame scheduling, is this unusual to have that many on a given day and how unusual? Are we way crazy for ever thinking that odd, and what are the odds? (on any given day...)

Also, on ADIZ and domestic response over continental airspace, I never did figure out what lead pilot Duff meant about suiting up to scramble when he heard a trans-continental flight was hijacked. Most agree there was no normal protocol for such a scramble, only if incoming off the oceans. So did he just misremember for dramatic effect or what?
 
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But now that I've broken my silence and am in here yakking - I'm Seriously not trying to JAQ off here, these are my best questions freely offered to be killed for good.

Thanks for the questions, it has been a while since anyone has offered anything to think about. :)


As someone who once believed in NORAD not-quite-stand-down-but-something-askew theories, I always did find the war games occuring that day as rather odd coincidences. VG and IIIRC Global Guardian at least are known to be happening, perhaps Northern Vigilance too. The level of suspicion I invested was out of whack, but in your opinion of wargame scheduling, is this unusual to have that many on a given day and how unusual? Are we way crazy for ever thinking that odd, and what are the odds? (on any given day...)

I think on first blush it's reasonable to arch the eyebrows at several major air defense exercises occurring right when 9/11 was happening. But there's a few factors to take into account.

Firstly, to address one, Northern Vigilance was an operation, not an exercise, and was the standard response to such Russian activities. The press release NORAD issued for the operation commented that NORAD had conducted a smaller operation recently in response to a different Russian exercise.

In addition, Northern Vigilance occurred within Alaska and Canada NORAD Regions, which are of course equipped with their own fighter squadrons (off the top of my head I think the US has about eight and Canada has two up there). As such the operation was never going to involve continental Region fighters, let alone the alert fighters. Perhaps some AWACS and other support units may have deployed northward from CONR, but they were not in play on 9/11 anyway.

This protocol, where one nation would conduct an exercise and the other would "shadow" it with an operation was standard throughout the Cold War, and continues to this day. Aside from the excellent opportunity that it offers, it's also just sensible - an "exercise" would be the perfect cover to forward deploy units for a surprise attack. By countering that exercise with a real world deployment of your own, you encourage the other nation to think twice about attempting anything.

That does, however, still leave two major exercises, occurring at the same time, and that might raise suspicion, but if you look a bit closer, you'll see why it's a non issue. The clue is in the name, and there's a third exercise that's seldom mentioned, called Apollo Guardian, and that should give away the clue. They're all called Guardian.

That's because they're all part of the same exercise. Guardian is a multi-agency "doomsday" exercise. In the event of a major nuclear attack multiple US DOD agencies have to cooperate to protect the US, and so they exercise together, and of course each have their own nicknames for their part of the exercise.

To explain, most people refer to the military operations of the Persian Gulf War as "Desert Storm", but that was only the name for the US contingent - every other nation had its own nickname. Operation Granby was the UK contingent, Operation Friction was the Canadian contingent, Opération Daguet was the French contingent, Operation Damask was the Australian contingent, and so forth.

So, with regards the Guardian exercises, "Vigilant" was NORAD, "Global" was US Strategic Command, and "Apollo" was US Space Command.

In that regard it was not suspicious or noteworthy that these exercises occurred together, but both normal and necessary.


Also, on ADIZ and domestic response over continental airspace, I never did figure out what lead pilot Duff meant about suiting up to scramble when he heard a trans-continental flight was hijacked. Most agree there was no normal protocol for such a scramble, only if incoming off the oceans. So did he just misremember for dramatic effect or what?

I think the explanation there is it's a bit more than just a pilot overhearing a hijacking report. Timothy Duffy took the original call from TRACON asking for Otis to scramble fighters. He was an alert pilot, but he was also Director of Operations (or some other similar command role) on the day. Protocol or not, the military are all about contingency, being prepared, and trying to keep options available. If no scramble was made, all he and Nash would do by getting ready was waste some of their own time - hardly an issue given their job is basically to sit around and wait all day to be scrambled.

But if a scramble did occur, they'd be one step ahead of the game, and able to respond faster.

Also to clarify, there was a standard protocol for a trans-continental hijacking scramble, but it was slow and ungainly, and it wasn't successful on 9/11 because the key link in the chain was missing (hijack coordinator at FAA headquarters).

I like to put this in the context of my own job, and perhaps you can do something similar to better understand it. One of my jobs on the film set is to bring actors on and off the set as requested by the First AD. If some other crew member comes up to me and says "hey I think they want the cast on set now" obviously I'm not going to herd em all in there. The First AD is going to make that call, when they're ready. But I can do a check and make sure I know where all of my cast are, and be standing by, so if the First AD does ask for the cast I can get them on set all the quicker. Worst case scenario I stand tense and ready for ten minutes when I could be having a coffee. Best case scenario I do my job just that little bit better than I otherwise would.
 
I think on first blush it's reasonable to arch the eyebrows at several major air defense exercises occurring right when 9/11 was happening. But there's a few factors to take into account.

Obviously factors, but thanks for just admitting it can easily look odd. That's all the vindication I seek. On the factors:
Northern Guardian has been stated, by me among others, as drawing attention and/or fighters north. I don't think I've ever seen any evidence of this however.

That does, however, still leave two major exercises, occurring at the same time, and that might raise suspicion, but if you look a bit closer, you'll see why it's a non issue. The clue is in the name, and there's a third exercise that's seldom mentioned, called Apollo Guardian, and that should give away the clue. They're all called Guardian.

That's because they're all part of the same exercise. Guardian is a multi-agency "doomsday" exercise. In the event of a major nuclear attack multiple US DOD agencies have to cooperate to protect the US, and so they exercise together, and of course each have their own nicknames for their part of the exercise.
<snip> So, with regards the Guardian exercises, "Vigilant" was NORAD, "Global" was US Strategic Command, and "Apollo" was US Space Command.

In that regard it was not suspicious or noteworthy that these exercises occurred together, but both normal and necessary.

Superb. I never heard of the Apollo one, nor that these were all connected. Clearly this takes the odds and tweaks them to just one coincidence, being that Guardian cluster being set for that day (or days rather including 9/11). As much as I try to avoid using it as a crutch, coincidences do happen. Plus I recall this stuff is usually done around that time of year.

On Duffy: Scramble-ready -> suited-up = pretty damn obvious in hindsight. Seriously, what the hell was I thinking? :blush:
I think perhaps it is time to close my old blog forever. Anything good that's left will be worth salvaging when it seems to be so. Maybe not tonight. But soon, and fr the rest of my life... lol

ETA: Then I caught the next par.
Also to clarify, there was a standard protocol for a trans-continental hijacking scramble, but it was slow and ungainly, and it wasn't successful on 9/11 because the key link in the chain was missing (hijack coordinator at FAA headquarters).

Another missing link at FAA I didn't even know about? With a verifiable effect on defenses? Dangit man, are you trying to sabotage my site destruction plans? Is this a prank joke?
 
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Another missing link at FAA I didn't even know about? With a verifiable effect on defenses? Dangit man, are you trying to sabotage my site destruction plans? Is this a prank joke?


It's perhaps the one aspect of 9/11 that bugs me the most, and the only remotely compelling argument for LIHOP. Having said that, when the FBI interviewed FAA staff at HQ they found that virtually no one there had any clue what anyone was supposed to do during a hijacking. The "hijack coordinator" was not a specific role, but rather one of the many duties that the head of security had.

The result being, if no one in the building realises that the head of security is supposed to handle a hijacking, when the head of security goes on holiday no one is going to step up to fill that role. So when a hijacking occurs, nothing happens.

On another note, the person who was head of security at the FAA on 9/11 quietly left that job soon after. I can't help but wonder if some people in fact did lose their jobs after 9/11, just without much of a fanfare reaching the public.
 
I am having a discussion with a truther and a point he made was about radar inserts to be used as part of the Vigilant Guardian exercise. He commented that these would have confused FAA Controllers while they were looking for the lost aircraft.

Two things occurred to me.

1.) If the scenarios were designed to simulate a hijack to 'cuba' would they use inserts with no IFF tags? In the NEADS Tapes anyone discussing trying to find the aircraft seems perplexed by this action as if they were not expecting it. And if the exercise was in fact in operation inserts with IFF tags would have no effect on the activity. The radar ops were trying to find blips without tags that did not have a corresponding blip on the tagged screen.

2) I didn't actually read anywhere that the exercise would include inserts of any kind on FAA radar screens. Especially not working ATC screens in all the control areas in the North East. Certainly none of the reports I have seen suggest that FAA controllers saw any radar targets with or without IFF tags for any aircraft that didn't exist.

Am I right? Anywhere I can point to supporting this?
 
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IIRC radar inserts were involved in a different exercise, perhaps Northern Vigilance. I'm not going to dig it up, but I recall these were removed and/or the exercise canceled as the attack became known. I also think these inserts would probably not have affected anything, whole different sets of screens in different locations were probably at work. Gumboot of course could give a better answer.
 
I am having a discussion with a truther and a point he made was about radar inserts to be used as part of the Vigilant Guardian exercise. He commented that these would have confused FAA Controllers while they were looking for the lost aircraft.
This comes from Mike Ruppert, who quotes a report from NORAD that ends:

The Federal Aviation Administration has evidence of a hijacking and is asking for NORAD support. This is not part of the exercise.

In a flash, Operation Northern Vigilance is called off. Any simulated information, what's known as an "inject," is purged from the screens".

(For source on that, and more on this in general, see here.)

Problem #1 is Ruppert simply assumes that an inject means a false blip on a radar screen. He may be correct, but this isn't necessarily the case (see the above link for examples.)

Problem #2 is Ruppert follows that article quote by asking "No other mainstream press (especially in the US) had mentioned that false radar blips had been inserted onto radar screens on September 11th. But on whose screens? Where?" There's no ambiguity in the article, it's clearly talking about NORAD, yet Ruppert pretends that "false blips" on FAA radar screens are now a real possibility. (Then on his site they pretend he's got documented evidence.)

Problem #3 is, as you say, there's no evidence that an exercise would put false blips on FAA radar screens, that would obviously be dangerous, and what would be the point? If you want them involved, use a real plane. If I remember correctly, an aircraft controller who posts here sometimes said that would never happen, though I'll have to confirm that.

And problem #4, as you point out again, is that there are no witnesses who report this as a problem. Flights 11, 175 and 93 were seen on radar until their last moments. Flight 77 was lost, but that was because it turned about mostly in a radar black spot and the controllers were looking in the wrong place. "False blips" are an attempt to explain something that didn't actually happen.
 
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2) I didn't actually read anywhere that the exercise would include inserts of any kind on FAA radar screens. Especially not working ATC screens in all the control areas in the North East. Certainly none of the reports I have seen suggest that FAA controllers saw any radar targets with or without IFF tags for any aircraft that didn't exist.

Am I right? Anywhere I can point to supporting this?

I do not recall any reports of false targets of any type on either NORAD or FAA screens. You're asking for negative reports, which likely don't exist.

NORAD can not insert false blips on FAA Radar. The exercise was cancled, so there were no false inserts on NEADS screens either.

In fact, I don't believe anyone can insert false inputs on FAA Radars, period, however Cheap Shot will verify this when he sees the question.
 
It's perhaps the one aspect of 9/11 that bugs me the most, and the only remotely compelling argument for LIHOP. Having said that, when the FBI interviewed FAA staff at HQ they found that virtually no one there had any clue what anyone was supposed to do during a hijacking. The "hijack coordinator" was not a specific role, but rather one of the many duties that the head of security had.

The result being, if no one in the building realises that the head of security is supposed to handle a hijacking, when the head of security goes on holiday no one is going to step up to fill that role. So when a hijacking occurs, nothing happens.

On another note, the person who was head of security at the FAA on 9/11 quietly left that job soon after. I can't help but wonder if some people in fact did lose their jobs after 9/11, just without much of a fanfare reaching the public.

I suspect that the Farmer book is going to have much to say about the FAA/NORAD stuff. Based on hearing hm speak for half an hour, he is definitely not a Twoofer but I can't factcheck is claims about FAA.NORAD. It's not my thing and the details make my head hurt.

Here's a link to the audio on this page. The blurb is a little over the top but, hey, the guy deserves to sell a good book. Maybe he will trick some Ttuthers into reading it.


John Farmer, 9/11 Commission senior counsel, explains how the truth of 9/11 was obfuscated by a false version of events that the government presented to Congress, the 9/11 Commission, and the media. Drawing on newly released records, Farmer gives a comprehensive account of the events of that day in The Ground Truth: The Untold Story of an America Under Attack on 9/11
 

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