VFF Preliminary Kidney Detection Test

[Giggywig]

How do you check for Reptilians and other assorted aliens camouflaged as humans?

 

[Senex]

Attention Skeptics Nationwide,

I am a paranormal claimant investigating my claim of medical perceptions. When I look at people I perceive images in my mind that depict the inside of their bodies, see more on www.visionfromfeeling.com. I have submitted a claim and suggested test protocol to the Independent Investigations Group IIG West and they are arranging a test for me to take place in Hollywood California hopefully by the end of the year.

The persons are wearing their everyday clothes and their backs do not need to be bare.

Hehehe... what is needed and what I would insist on are two different things.

This kidney stuff seems to me a silly preliminary to the the main event of the haunted motel rooms test

 

[Ocelot]

How do you check for Reptilians and other assorted aliens camouflaged as humans?

Blood test, and check forehead for signs that a demal regenerator has been used.

 

[Ocelot]

Anita (VFF)

I don't know if your sophisticated medical super sight has revealed this to you but I've noticed that people are often of different heights and so a single curtain obscuring their head and shoulders would be a different height for different people.

Why not let the subjects lie face down. Makes the curtain easier – it can be full length – and the people just move along ‘til their head and shoulders are one side and the backs are the other.

Also it will be much more comfortable than sitting sideways on a seat for four hours – though I still don’t understand why you can’t view the subjects one at a time.

 

[catbasket]

How do you check for Reptilians and other assorted aliens camouflaged as humans?

That's a good point. How could we be sure the test subjects aren't in fact VFF's fellow Arcturans messing with our minds? Maybe someone could come up with a test which doesn't include human(Arcturan) test subjects?

Wasn't there some talk of sending crushed pills to VFF for her to identify using her Vibrational Algebra/x-ray vision? I wonder what came of that idea?

 

[Miss_Kitt]

I missed something here: Why can't she see the subjects one at a time? If she needs to 'prime' her abilities, she can do a non-blinded check on a known one-kidney subject and a known two-kidney subject.

As for verifying the existance of kidneys, I bet the local medical technician training class would love to have a group of volunteers for ultrasound, which is non-invasive and requires no contrast to be injected. (I have to take a friend for annual kidney ultrasounds to check for stones, so I know this is a quick and painless procedure.) This would eliminate (or doublecheck) anyone VfF identified for the "born with one kidney" scenario.

Not that this matters, of course, because VfF is not seriously trying to do any kind of test, just to tie up time and attention as she launches her CAM career...

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

Just for your information Anita, ALL kidney removal is done from the front/side so there really is nothing complicated about where the location of the scar is. You were wrong in your assumptions.

Thank you I'm glad to know that.

Second step to nothing happening until it happens eventually, is how JPL was not so subtly requested to find nine other women who do not have a missing kidney

If it interests JPL I am sure that between himself, his wife, and their friends, they can find nine female family members and acquaintances for the test.

so that Anita can then discuss the protocol which is truly putting the cart before the horse.

I just want to get started. Knowing that we have a location and the volunteers is a good start and we can discuss the protocol until it too is ready.

JPL will also be referred to the local skeptics society by Anita, gee JPL I hope you dont live in a small village of 500 people who mind you asking the big questions!

If he does not have a local Skeptics group that is ok, but most people have a local Skeptics group. Let's see if he does.

VFF you are asking for 24 minutes to look at each person. 24? Is your vision like the old Polaroid cameras such that the picture of the person's innards slowly develops with time?

The images of tissue are not instantaneous. They begin as a feeling of a vibrational pattern, that slowly takes form into images and pictures. It takes me a moment to feel and see a kidney, but I am asking for plenty of time on the test. I don't want time to be a factor in finding out whether I can do this or not, so I am asking for an excess time and will finish early.

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

According to the US Congressional Kidney Caucus, one person in 750 is born with a single kidney.
The above figures indicate that there are approximately 405 000 people in the US with one kidney and no scar.
It's reasonable to assume that not all of these people will be aware of their condition.
There is a reasonably high probability that one of these people will end up in your pool of examinees.
How do you intend to screen these people out of the test?

Difficult question. If any of the nine volunteers who were meant to have both kidneys were, without their knowledge, born without a kidney, then according to my claim I would detect more than one person who has one kidney. Does anyone have any suggestions?

You're claiming to be ready for a test and you don't even know how to detect a missing kidney using the methods available to people with normal vision.
Can you see a problem with this?

How does a person with normal vision detect that a person is missing a kidney??

As a general comment, VFF, you have no medical background, as further evidenced by the above approach to "kidney detection" and yet you appear determined to continue in your attempts to diagnose people. It won't end well.

This is a paranormal investigation and has got nothing to do with officially diagnosing people.

 

[Hokulele]

How does a person with normal vision detect that a person is missing a kidney??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_resonance_imaging

 

[tsig]

Might I suggest that the requirement for hours of sitting could be meant to ensure that it will not be possible to recruit the necessary number of volunteers, and hence impossible to conduct the test? This would enable VFF to say: "I suggested a scientific protocol, but they did not want to go throught with it."

Hans

ETA: Oh, Skeen beat me to it, heheh.

If you got the volunteers you would then need the signatures of their dead grand mothers to agree to the test.

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

The proposed protocol is absurd for this reason alone. No-one is going the volunteer to sit like that for four hours, or even two. I'd say the maximum time that could be reasonably asked is ten minutes. The only one with any motivation to put up with any more inconvenience than that for the sake of such a test is the applicant. If ten minutes per volunteer isn't enough for VfF to "see" something as obvious as their number of kidneys then most of the claims she has made about her previous successes with her supposed ability can be instantly dismissed, as from her own accounts her observations were usually made in a far shorter time than that.

In the one past experience where I claim to have detected that a kidney was missing, it only took a moment for it to catch my attention once I felt through the upper back area. I then spent at least 5 more minutes double-checking repeatedly and confirming to myself what I was feeling. (Is it just me, or does this sound really ridiculous? To be able to feel someone's kidney from a distance and just by looking? But it happened! Let's see if I can do it again!) I will agree to ten minutes per volunteer if that is required by the test protocol. Obviously, as anyone taking a test, one would wish for extra time just in case.

This is the suggested protocol (...)

1. The volunteers all wear football jerseys or similiar with a different number on the back. The volunteers are monitored and filmed from the moment they put them on until the end of the test to ensure they have no opportunity to swap shirts.

Rather than just saying that "I don't know whether I can perform with the people wrapped in thick sweaters", I went ahead and had my boyfriend put on a thick fleece sweater and asked him to sit still while I look at his back from behind. The sweater also forms vibrational information and I had to penetrate through the thick jungle of sweater fibers to search for the body beneath. I managed to find some blood vessels that reach up from around the sacrum area and was struggling to find orientation in the body. Obviously I was lost. I concluded that I would strongly prefer for the volunteers to wear ordinary thin clothing. My boyfriend then took the sweater off and was wearing his cotton shirt, which is much thinner. I had tuned up my "vision from feeling" from previously, so now I was clearly perceiving the kidneys. I could even see and taste the urine (sorry guys) in the ureters and the sodium in it, and I confirmed the presence of the kidneys in a snap.

2. VfF enters a screened off section of the room and sits facing a curtain, on the other side of which is a stool.

3. The first volunteer sits on the stool with their back to the curtain. When he/she is settled, the curtain is drawn back. VfF should not be able to see anything except the stool and its occupant from where she is sitting. The volunteer sits as still as he/she can manage whilst VfF examines him/her. VfF indicates when she has seen enough and the curtain is drawn. The volunteer then returns to the waiting area and the next volunteer takes their place.

One volunteer at a time? That would reduce the time that a volunteer needs to sit, so I will accept this for the test protocol. I want the head and neck of the volunteers to not be visible, both to improve the test protocol since volunteers know whether they are the target person or not and might voluntarily or involuntarily give it away on their head or face, also seeing the head is a distraction to me and I'd rather not see it.

4. Repeat for each volunteer. VfF is free to make whatever notes she wishes about the volunteers.

5. When all volunteers have been examined VfF decides which one she thinks has only one kidney and writes the appropriate number on a card which she seals inside an envelope. She then joins the volunteers, adjudicator and observers and places the envelope on a table in clear view.

6. The adjudicator calls for the volunteer with only one kidney to step forward. He/she produces the previously agreed documentary evidence which is examined by VfF and the adjudicator. When both are satisfied the volunteer turns around to show the number on his/her back. The adjudicator then opens VfF's envelope to see if the number she has written is the same.

Sounds good. If one of the volunteers who was meant to have both kidneys was, without knowing it, born with one kidney, I would be expected to detect more than one person who has only one kidney. For the preliminary test, would it be good enough to say that as long as I detect the person who has had a kidney removed I may proceed to the official test, and if I fail to detect the one person who has had a kidney removed I have clearly failed the test. Regardless of if I mention possible others who were born with one kidney. Comments?

Repeat as many times as necessary to beat the previously agreed odds of chance success.

I don't think we can use the same volunteers repeatedly. While the level of coverage and screens that I require and that I allow, should not be expected to reveal clues about who has one or both kidneys, it would make it so that the volunteers can not be used for repeated trials since they would be distinguishable from one another after a first trial. Good protocol, thanks guys you are a great help.

 

[Pixel42]

I will agree to ten minutes per volunteer if that is required by the test protocol.

What is required by the test protocol is whatever time you say you need to do your stuff. If you say you need more than ten minutes, then that's what the test protocol must say. Just bear in mind that the more time you require, the more difficult it will be to find volunteers prepared to sit there for that long.

Rather than just saying that "I don't know whether I can perform with the people wrapped in thick sweaters", I went ahead and had my boyfriend put on a thick fleece sweater and asked him to sit still while I look at his back from behind. The sweater also forms vibrational information and I had to penetrate through the thick jungle of sweater fibers to search for the body beneath. I managed to find some blood vessels that reach up from around the sacrum area and was struggling to find orientation in the body. Obviously I was lost. I concluded that I would strongly prefer for the volunteers to wear ordinary thin clothing.

I know very little about football but my understanding was that football shirts were made of thin cotton, given how hot anything else would be for someone running around a field for 90 minutes. The only reason to specify them was that they come with numbers already on; any garment with a number on it will do.

One volunteer at a time? That would reduce the time that a volunteer needs to sit, so I will accept this for the test protocol.

Yippee.

I want the head and neck of the volunteers to not be visible, both to improve the test protocol since volunteers know whether they are the target person or not and might voluntarily or involuntarily give it away on their head or face, also seeing the head is a distraction to me and I'd rather not see it.

Another curtain, which is adjusted to the height of the volunteer whilst the main curtain is drawn, should do the trick. So when the main curtain is pulled back, you will see the back of the volunteer only.

For the preliminary test, would it be good enough to say that as long as I detect the person who has had a kidney removed I may proceed to the official test, and if I fail to detect the one person who has had a kidney removed I have clearly failed the test. Regardless of if I mention possible others who were born with one kidney. Comments?

Nope. You have one chance, and one chance only, of specifying which volunteer has only one kidney. If you pick the wrong guy you're welcome to try to persuade him to have an ultrasound to see if he is one of those rare individuals who has only one without realising it.

I don't think we can use the same volunteers repeatedly.

You need three tests with ten volunteers, just one of whom has a single kidney, to reach the 1:1000 odds usually required for the preliminary test of the JREF challenge. So if you want this test to meet the same success criteria you'd need to find 27 volunteers with two kidneys and 3 volunteers with one.

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

Depends what people are doing during the "sit". People will often sit for quite a while with a good book or a computer game.

Would sitting for longer times, reading a book or doing some other activity, ever be expected to reveal the number of kidneys from body posture or other clues?

And I personally know two people who have had a kidney removed (one is my own mother, who had a diseased kidney removed many years ago, and the other is a friend who donated a kidney to her sick husband). Both of these have no symptoms or inconvenience from the operation, and could not be guessed to be missing a kidney from their behaviour.

Would these ladies be interested in sitting for the kidney detection test? Would you be up to being the Skeptic to help me arrange a preliminary test?

From a Preliminary test, if I fail the test then that is clearly a fail. If I pass a Preliminary test, then since there are clearly questionable test details and other issues I will be happy to not allow a passed preliminary test as any evidence in favor of the claim, but to simply announce myself as ready for the official IIG test, which I expect would be set up more strictly. What do you all say? What we as Skeptics would hope to get out of the Preliminary test is to see me fail if there is no ability, and what I'd hope to get out of it as the claimant is some practice.

However, it seems to me the checking for scars is hopeless. People can have abdominal scars for all sorts of reasons, and different surgeons favour different approaches. I'm surprised that so many people are born with one kidney, but it's certainly something to think about. Doing CT scans of the volunteers seems completely impractical - no medical service would subject people to ionising radiation for something so trivial. Would production of medical records do it? Easy enough to show that someone has had a kidney removed from their records, if there's no impersonation. Might be harder to show that it had never happened I suppose....

For a Preliminary test I would certainly think it good enough to work with imperfect test procedures. And from the practical experience with the preliminary test we would learn things that are valuable for the design of the official test. Just to see if I can do it or not and to get a good start toward the official test (the official test being the test I will have with the IIG). Let me know if you and your two acquaintances would be willing to set up a preliminary test with me.

 

[Kariboo]

Vff: Let's assume for discussion sake that no one here is willing to organize a test for you (finding volunteers etc). What is your plan B to test yourself?

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

Why would anyone want to take a "missing kidney" test when they have already failed at this? I am referring specifically to the fact that VfF did not mention that Dr Carlson had a missing kidney when she had a "reading" with him at her local skeptic meeting.

Does "I knew it but I didnt mention it" REALLY mean you didnt fail?
Would that excuse cut it with any JREFers here?

For those of you who don't know, I did a reading with Dr. Carlson who is one of the members of my local FACT Skeptics group. I was using a health questionnaire that I had made that listed up to 100 different health information. The questionnaire did not however include "missing kidney". I detected that Dr. Carlson is missing a left kidney. I spent several minutes double-checking what I saw/felt and contemplating whether to write it on the questionnaire. Looking at him I could never have guessed just by ordinary vision and my logic was making me hesitate. I wondered what would happen if I wrote it down and were wrong, so I did not write it down. What matters is that this forms the basis of my claim, and that is why I want to go ahead and have the preliminary test and official test of this claim. On the test of course I will not hesitate to write down my perceptions!

Four hours is a long time.

How about you see the subjects one at a time.

Exactly.

I would recommend you have scheduled breaks every set period of time (say 20-30 minutes) when all volunteers would stand up and leave the room for 5 minutes, stretch their legs and if needed use the bathroom. That way you are not distracted by who needs to pee every 40 minutes.

We have decided to have one volunteer seen at a time and so breaks won't be necessary. Scheduled breaks would have been a perfect solution otherwise, so thank you.

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

These are taken straight from your own website why 4hrs for the readings? You say yourself you know where to look and its only one thing to look for? And why do u want to narrow down from 10 to 5 then check again , why are you so full of contradictions? You’ve been practicing as well does it take 24 mins to locate your own kidneys? You did a whole body reading in 15-18 mins why can't you find a kidney in 10 mins????????????????????

I am asking for more time than necessary, so that time will not be a factor in determining whether I can do this or not. We have decided to see one volunteer at a time.

Do you guys think she's going to let up on the 4 hour requirement?

Already did.

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

You literally Would. Not. Be. Able. To. Tell.

Yay!

Do not include anyone with any actual disease of the urinogenital system (to include bladder or prostate problems) to ensure no confounding factors. This would not be that hard. Just find a healthy live kidney donor, and some other healthy people.

Well, could you...?

Your main problem is to prove that the people are as they say they are. After all, Randi could have persuaded someone with only one kidney to join the group and claim they had two, and/or someone with two kidneys to pretend they had only one. He could even ave arranged to falsify their medical records to weasel out on paying.
[/paranoid MDC claimant mode]

Randi wouldn't do that.

You have to think of everything.

Thanks for thinking.

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

1 in 400 people have horseshoe kidney (including my brother-in-law). Wouldn't that also potentially throw off things?

Thank you for bringing this to attention. I don't expect renal fusion to confuse me as to whether a person has one or two kidneys. There are still two distinct lobes.

Robots. Suspend a huge magnet over the testing arena to check for robots.

Right. Some robots have three kidneys, so having removed one they still appear to have two. It can be very confusing sometimes.

How do you check for Reptilians and other assorted aliens camouflaged as humans?

There would be none of this without it.

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

I don't know if your sophisticated medical super sight has revealed this to you but I've noticed that people are often of different heights and so a single curtain obscuring their head and shoulders would be a different height for different people.

Why not let the subjects lie face down. Makes the curtain easier – it can be full length – and the people just move along ‘til their head and shoulders are one side and the backs are the other.

Also it will be much more comfortable than sitting sideways on a seat for four hours – though I still don’t understand why you can’t view the subjects one at a time.

The volunteers will be seen one at a time and not all at once for four hours.

I disagree, I would think that lying on one's belly can be very uncomfortable, I know from myself that I can't sleep on my belly. Since one volunteer is seen at a time, height adjustments can be made to the curtain.

That's a good point. How could we be sure the test subjects aren't in fact VFF's fellow Arcturans messing with our minds? Maybe someone could come up with a test which doesn't include human(Arcturan) test subjects?

Arcturians don't have kidneys, that's how.

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

I missed something here: Why can't she see the subjects one at a time?

For the sake of convenience for the volunteers, I have agreed to seeing one of the volunteers at a time.

If she needs to 'prime' her abilities, she can do a non-blinded check on a known one-kidney subject and a known two-kidney subject.

And I have already done that with Dr. Carlson. I am ready for the test.

As for verifying the existance of kidneys, I bet the local medical technician training class would love to have a group of volunteers for ultrasound, which is non-invasive and requires no contrast to be injected. (I have to take a friend for annual kidney ultrasounds to check for stones, so I know this is a quick and painless procedure.) This would eliminate (or doublecheck) anyone VfF identified for the "born with one kidney" scenario.

Thank you for shining your Brilliance on this Forum once again, this is a wonderful idea. I was not aware of this simple and non-invasive method for checking for kidneys! You are wonderful! Once we have the volunteers for the test and the location, I will contact places local to that area that have this technology and make arrangements. I will pay for the ultrasound if necessary.

ETA: Ouch.

Not that this matters, of course, because VfF is not seriously trying to do any kind of test, just to tie up time and attention as she launches her CAM career...

Let's just have this kidney detection test as soon as possible. My career is going to be within conventional medicine.