Going to the Creation "Museum"

[Monketi Ghost]

At some point you have to view the creature in it's natural habitat.

"Creature". tsig, this attitude and the attitude you've displayed throughout the thread don't earn respect.
As has been said, this will do nothing to help the cause of skepticism and will impress people with atheism not in the slightest.

There will be parents taking their kids to the museum that day, and this will cement it in those kids' minds that atheists are jerks.

All this "field trip" is, is a dick-move.

 

[tsig]

"Creature". tsig, this attitude and the attitude you've displayed throughout the thread don't earn respect.
As has been said, this will do nothing to help the cause of skepticism and will impress people with atheism not in the slightest.

There will be parents taking their kids to the museum that day, and this will cement it in those kids' minds that atheists are jerks.

All this "field trip" is, is a dick-move.

deleted

Your last sentence ends it for me. bye all.

 

[Towlie]

I just found PZ's post from the 28th and I've moved from apprehensive back to supportive.

That moved you from apprehensive back to supportive? Well, maybe it did, but I can't see any way it could have moved you to optimistic. I just finished reading it and it seems to reinforce almost everything I've already said in this thread.

Here's what I expect: EVERYONE in our group will be firm, rational, and will not shy away from asking hard questions. You will feel free to wear some distinguishing clothing — a scarlet A, a Darwin fish, a t-shirt, something so that we can tell we are members of the same group. You will discuss the material on display with your peers, but with other visitors to the "museum" if and only if they invite it.

There are a number of things you will not do, however.

Do not show up wearing obscenities or particularly abusive articles of clothing. Dress casual, but look good — you are setting an example. Pro-science t-shirts are excellent, t-shirts with naked lesbians masturbating with bibles will give them an excuse to throw you out, so don't do it. The SSA won't even give you a ticket if you show up looking like you want to brawl.

You will not be disruptive. This is an information gathering mission that will make you a better informed individual to criticize bad ideas. Do not interfere with other visitors' ability to examine the place. Ask questions only where appropriate. Collect questions that you can ask of any of the real scientists who will be in our group. Do not get into loud arguments. If a discussion starts getting angry on either side I want you to be the ones to back off.

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PZ Meyers says that this is what he expects from every single one of the projected 240+ people, but I think he really means that this is what he wants. He's being very naive is he literally expects it. That's not a judgment of his fans in particular, it's a general assessment of human nature.

I'm interested in hearing what others who have read that post think about it.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

deleted

Your last sentence ends it for me. bye all.

Good enough. You didn't really bring much to the table anyways.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

That moved you from apprehensive back to supportive? Well, maybe it did, but I can't see any way it could have moved you to optimistic. I just finished reading it and it seems to reinforce almost everything I've already said in this thread.PZ Meyers says that this is what he expects from every single one of the projected 240+ people, but I think he really means that this is what he wants. He's being very naive is he literally expects it. That's not a judgment of his fans in particular, it's a general assessment of human nature.

I'm interested in hearing what others who have read that post think about it.

Towlie, here's my take on it from my TAM experiences. Sometimes the mob mentality is good, sometimes it's bad. I noted after TAM 1, in a thread that's probably long lost, that there were no fights, no arrests, not even the report of stolen towels. For an aggregation of people who were largely atheist, there wasn't even the hint of impropiety. Even with the move to Vegas, TAM debauchery seems to be largely constrained to having too many people in a hotel room being too loud during a party and having it break up with most folks returning to the bar. All this I might add without Randi ever laying down the law on how we should behave ourselves.

PZ has made a pretty firm statement about how he and SSA expects everyone who attends under their aegis to be attired and behave, and more importantly will enforce on anyone who will get a group ticket. I am inclined to view those boisterous and belligerant posters to Pharyngula as having "Internet muscles" and either not likely to show up or willing to behave like adults in a hostile environment where they have, admittedly, been given a begrudging but extant welcome.

This could be a public relations nightmare for us atheists, or it could be a fabulous example of how we're not all angry, bitter, depraved, etc. and just interested in viewing Creationists in their own environment. Referring back to my TAM experiences, and with PZ's admonition, I'm betting on the latter.

 

[Towlie]

The post by PZ Meyers titled The Creation "Museum" has given us warning appears to have been removed from the Pharyngula site. There's a link to it on the home page in the Top Posts box on the left, under the picture of PZ Meyers, but it doesn't work. I wonder what's up.

 

[Robster FCD]

Just to kick this dead horse one more time, you don't see "loud and proud" Creationists show up by the hundreds at natural history museums wearing Jesus Fish t-shirts.

Actually, they do exactly that. Fundamentalist churches and religious schools do organize tours of natural history museums where they talk about how this is all proof that their creationist beliefs are correct.

I'll update once its over, but probably won't have a chance to fully debrief for a couple of days. Its a crazy weekend, so I'll try to get a few pics up, and on Monday or Tuesday, I'll put the rest on flickr or the like.

 

[gelatin]

I'm attending this. I'm not wearing anything that states my non-beliefs, because I'm just not into that sort of thing. I can say I am 100% going because I am very curious about the museum and I've wanted to go for some time. This just seemed like it'd be the most interesting day to go. I plan to be very polite to anyone affiliated with the museum, and I have no interest in starting any arguments. I understand how this is not the best idea, but I just wanna see the museum and I'm very curious as to how this will go down. And it's only like an hour away, so why not.

 

[pgwenthold]

3.) antagonize the employees with questions meant to ridicule and instigate?

This is probably the biggest point of contention.

Yeah, those uppity atheists are going to come in armed with...knowledge, and are going to use that to "ridicule and instigate" (assuming mean "instigate arguments"). By, presumably, asking questions that the volunteers or staff at the museum can't answer.

Thos evil bastages!!!!!

But I agree, that is going to be pitched as "antagonistic." But then again, christians consider it to "persecution" when they aren't allowed to use a government voice to promote their religion, so perceptions can be different.

The fact that the museum has sent a letter warning against any disruption is, I think, very telling. What are they expecting? A riot?

Do they send such letters to grade school teachers who want to bring their students? Or are they just projecting on the evil atheists?

 

[kedo1981]

Going en-mass and announcing it ahead of time was and is a bad idea.

There is too much of a chance people in the group will be act like dicks.

Also the Fundys will make sure your group has little or no contact with other visitors, They will likely have the group tour completely by itself (with one tour guide, one guy with a camcorder and security guard named Bubba)

 

[Towlie]

Going en-mass and announcing it ahead of time was and is a bad idea.

There is too much of a chance people in the group will be act like dicks.

That's pretty much what I said back in my post #19, but at this point there's nothing left to do but wait and see how it all turns out. Maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised to hear that everyone acted the way they were supposed to and it all went well, but I'd have to be offered some pretty good odds before I'd put my money on it.

 

[pgwenthold]

Going en-mass and announcing it ahead of time was and is a bad idea.

There is too much of a chance people in the group will be act like dicks.

Depends what your definition of "dicks" is. Suppose PZ Myers asks some detailed question about some biological aspect that the ignorant staff member (and I use that as a descriptive) can't answer? Moreover, he probably knows that the staff member can't answer it. Is that being a dick? To expose the Creation Museum's ignorance of science?

From the Museum's standpoint, likely. They view it as an impertinent question that Myers is using to set them up. However, from his perspective, he is using it to illustrate to whoever is listening that the museum doesn't really know anything about science.

 

[Ocelot]

And even in the unlikely event that every single one of you obeys their rules, what's to stop them from planting one of their own in your midst to trigger a scene that spoils it for all of you?

This is something that has been discussed nigh-endlessly, and the organizers are well aware of it. I have a feeling that there will be a briefing, discussion of what the SSA expects of us, identifying stickers to separate us from them. Also, you can bet that we will be put into small groups, probably 10 at a time to go through the museum. If somebody makes trouble, you take pictures, video and back away. Somebody starts yelling stuff or being belligerent, get away from them. Pretty standard stuff.

You could also ask people to recite the atheist shiboleth "I deny the Holy Spirit," before they would be issued with their sticker. Still I suppose that you can object to creationism and bible literalism whilst still acknowledging the it's best not to provoke the big guy. OK scratch that.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

A bunch of people with an axe to grind, who like to get a chance to state their case, and will be stating it in some cases by the very clothing they'll be wearing.

Not really seeking information, since it's all readily available elsewhere; not to delight in the museum, since it's bogus in the first place...

Who actually believes this is an honest attempt to learn? Certainly not the staff and visitors. This will be bad PR for the causes supported by the group, even if it somehow stays quiet and respectful.

 

[coldcanuk]

2. What is the point of going to a museum where you know the views directly contradict your own?

Seriously, isn't this like going to a racetrack because you think Nascar sucks?

For the most part, I agree with you. The only logical explanation that I can drum up, is that a person would goto the Creation museum in order to familiarize themselves with their argumentation and proposed facts. It would be like a Marxist reading up on Freidmann. Why would you read up on Free-Market Capitalism if you believed that it was the root of all evil. (or vice-versa, why read-up on Marx if you believe that Socialism or Communism are morally bankrupt). The only reason I can deduce as logical, is to simply familiarize oneself with their side of the story.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

For the most part, I agree with you. The only logical explanation that I can drum up, is that a person would goto the Creation museum in order to familiarize themselves with their argumentation and proposed facts. It would be like a Marxist reading up on Freidmann. Why would you read up on Free-Market Capitalism if you believed that it was the root of all evil. (or vice-versa, why read-up on Marx if you believe that Socialism or Communism are morally bankrupt). The only reason I can deduce as logical, is to simply familiarize oneself with their side of the story.

But, my point is, it can be accomplished without giving them money... and without being annoying.

I could be dead wrong though. That happens occasionally _{every day}

 

[coldcanuk]

Hopefully people can maintain the high morale ground. Ridicule is a form of harassment, and I would believe that the museum would be fully in their rights to kick the harassers out and keep their money. These closed-minded religious people have built a temple to worship their ideas. It so happens that this temple resembles a museum.
Lead by example and the rest will follow. (oooops... bit of army brainwashing there!! LOL!)
There is no honour (I'm Canuk -> so I spell using 'our', her Majesty's english /me attempts to pick a linguistic brawl) or pride to be gained in lowering oneself to the same playing field as the fundys.
Be civil and polite regardless of their hate projection onto atheists. In effect, you'd be beating them at their own game with their rules. (Do onto others and that turn your other cheek thingy...)

 

[coldcanuk]

I agree with both of those points, the money and annoying. If you walk into someone's house, you don't start critiquing their tacky wallpaper. You can learn their 'arguments' without giving them money. However, you wouldn't be able to immerse yourself in their little world. I look at the money thing as paying to walk into an amusement park. Sure, I can have tons of thrills on my rollerblades or at the firing range for bloody next to nothing in money. I pay the fee to walk into their blissful little wonderland.
I wish I could go and check it out. I tried to check the Creation Museum here in Alberta, but when we went it was closed. if I could post URLs... I'd link the pics we took of the outside

 

[SezMe]

coldcanuk, just post the link with spaces or without the www and a member of the OFC (Old Farts Club) will post the link.

If I was in the area, I'd go to get a first hand look. It would, in fact, be an educational experience.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

*snip* I tried to check the Creation Museum here in Alberta, but when we went it was closed. if I could post URLs... I'd link the pics we took of the outside

Those smilies need reversin'.