Going to the Creation "Museum"

[UnrepentantSinner]

I'm changing my opinion status from "supportive" to "apprehensive" based on what I read in post from PZ.

The current total of registered attendees for our Invasion of the Creationist "Museum" is now at 101 — and you've only got a few more days to pre-register. You're also welcome to just show up, of course.

This is an official Outing — not only are we going on a trip, but you should be a loud and proud atheist, too. I suggested armbands before; if you don't like that, pick up one of these snazzy t-shirts, or wear something from the Out Campaign. Anything that looks respectable, but still makes clear that you are one of those atheists.

That just makes me a bit apprehensive.

If you're worried about giving money to creationists, just donate double the amount to a scientific cause.

I'm thinking of starting a scheme similar to carbon offsetting. They're called Idiocy sequestration credits

I like that.

 

[MikeSun5]

No one is asking you to go. No one is asking you to identify with the group that is going.

Again, nobody asked your opinion either. Yet you give it anyway because this is a forum and that's what happens on a forum. Quit stating the obvious.

You take it upon yourself to criticize people you do not know for actions they have not done.

Correct, except I'd rather use the word "warn" instead of "criticize." You implied that the trip would be a good way for atheists to "fight for respect," but I don't believe that. You get respect by earning it, not fighting for it.
Your comment also implied that by not going on the trip that you were cowering and censoring yourself. Okaaay...

If you think spending money at a Creationist museum and inundating the staff with questions you know they can't answer is a way for you stand up for your rights and demand respect, then more power to you. Go get your respect from the Creationists. I'm sure they'll give it to you after you demolish the story of Noah's Ark or something.

Crusades, indeed.

How do you disagree with someone then? At some point you have to say "you are wrong" this is widely perceived as being mean.

Now you're missing the point intentionally. They are going to a MUSEUM, not an open house discussion on religion. If they sat down with the owners of the museum to destroy them with logic like Bill Maher, that's cool. ..but that's not what's happening. They're getting a group of people together to descend upon people's place of employment. While I applaud the reasoning behind it, I just can't stop imagining if throngs of GreenPeace came to my office (I'm in the transportation business) to "ask me questions" and walk around our property. No matter how peaceful they claim to be, I'm sure out of 240 people, a few of them would intentionally try to get a rise out of me.

tsig- you're saying I can't predict how they'll act.... you're correct... but you can't either. I'm just saying out of 240 people - I repeat 240 human beings, I'm sure a few of them will be militant atheists like yourself who will try to get a reaction out of museum employees and/or patrons.

 

[tsig]

Again, nobody asked your opinion either. Yet you give it anyway because this is a forum and that's what happens on a forum. Quit stating the obvious.



Correct, except I'd rather use the word "warn" instead of "criticize." You implied that the trip would be a good way for atheists to "fight for respect," but I don't believe that. You get respect by earning it, not fighting for it.
Your comment also implied that by not going on the trip that you were cowering and censoring yourself. Okaaay...

If you think spending money at a Creationist museum and inundating the staff with questions you know they can't answer is a way for you stand up for your rights and demand respect, then more power to you. Go get your respect from the Creationists. I'm sure they'll give it to you after you demolish the story of Noah's Ark or something.

Crusades, indeed.



Now you're missing the point intentionally. They are going to a MUSEUM, not an open house discussion on religion. If they sat down with the owners of the museum to destroy them with logic like Bill Maher, that's cool. ..but that's not what's happening. They're getting a group of people together to descend upon people's place of employment. While I applaud the reasoning behind it, I just can't stop imagining if throngs of GreenPeace came to my office (I'm in the transportation business) to "ask me questions" and walk around our property. No matter how peaceful they claim to be, I'm sure out of 240 people, a few of them would intentionally try to get a rise out of me.

tsig- you're saying I can't predict how they'll act.... you're correct... but you can't either. I'm just saying out of 240 people - I repeat 240 human beings, I'm sure a few of them will be militant atheists like yourself who will try to get a reaction out of museum employees and/or patrons.

You seem to be missing the point that this is a public venue not your office.

Your constant statements about me and my probable actions are becoming tiresome.

 

[Robster FCD]

Idiocy sequestration credits. I'll pass the phrase along...

We'll just have to see how it turns out next week.

 

[MikeSun5]

You seem to be missing the point that this is a public venue not your office.

You seem to not understand analogies. Probably intentionally, because if you understood what I was saying, you'd have nothing to argue about.
I was saying that the views of the employees of any establishment do not necessarily represent the views of the owners of said establishment. Feel free to read that sentence twice.

Going to the museum under the impression that everyone there is an enemy of atheism that needs to be fought in order for atheists to get respect from Creationists is futile and ignorant, IMO.

Your constant statements about me and my probable actions are becoming tiresome.

Take some Red Bull.

 

[MikeSun5]

We'll just have to see how it turns out next week.

Good luck! Try and put the loud ones in separate groups.

 

[Wowbagger]

I'm afraid I won't be joining this group. But, I would have liked to, if it was feasible for me to travel that far, for such a thing.

I see it as an act of anthropological field research*.

And, if treated as such, I think it's plausible for that large a crowd to remain civil enough.

(* The key difference being that the published "papers" would probably consist of lots of literary eye rolls.)

 

[tsig]

You seem to not understand analogies. Probably intentionally, because if you understood what I was saying, you'd have nothing to argue about.
I was saying that the views of the employees of any establishment do not necessarily represent the views of the owners of said establishment. Feel free to read that sentence twice.

Going to the museum under the impression that everyone there is an enemy of atheism that needs to be fought in order for atheists to get respect from Creationists is futile and ignorant, IMO.



Take some Red Bull.

Since they have to sign a statement that they do agree with the management you would be wrong.

Continuing trying read my mind is futile and ignorant.

 

[SezMe]

I'm changing my opinion status from "supportive" to "apprehensive" based on what I read in post from PZ.

This is an official Outing — not only are we going on a trip, but you should be a loud and proud atheist, too.

That just makes me a bit apprehensive.

I'm with US. Being "loud and proud" carries implications that are not aligned with what Robster stated as the overall goal.

Robster, don't forget to update this thread after the outing.

 

[MikeSun5]

Since they have to sign a statement that they do agree with the management you would be wrong.

I wasn't aware of any statement. Nobody mentioned that, and it's not advertised on the museum's website. That does change things, but I do wonder if you're just making that up.

Anyway, as said and linked to in a previous post, the aim was to be a "loud and proud atheist." Wearing armbands and snazzy t-shirts that are aimed to offend is just instigating a confrontation -- which is exactly what this outing looks like to me. If I'm wrong, that's SUPER. Honestly.

Just to kick this dead horse one more time, you don't see "loud and proud" Creationists show up by the hundreds at natural history museums wearing Jesus Fish t-shirts. If this huge group can go to the Creation Museum dressed like and acting like regular patrons of a museum, that would be great. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[tsig]

I wasn't aware of any statement. Nobody mentioned that, and it's not advertised on the museum's website. That does change things, but I do wonder if you're just making that up.

Anyway, as said and linked to in a previous post, the aim was to be a "loud and proud atheist." Wearing armbands and snazzy t-shirts that are aimed to offend is just instigating a confrontation -- which is exactly what this outing looks like to me. If I'm wrong, that's SUPER. Honestly.

Just to kick this dead horse one more time, you don't see "loud and proud" Creationists show up by the hundreds at natural history museums wearing Jesus Fish t-shirts. If this huge group can go to the Creation Museum dressed like and acting like regular patrons of a museum, that would be great. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. I hope I'm wrong.

#
"Must I agree with the Answers in Genesis Statement of Faith to be a volunteer?

To participate fully in the volunteer programs of Answers in Genesis, agreement with the Answers in Genesis Statement of Faith is required. If you are not in agreement, but wish to volunteer your services and/or expertise, your request may be considered (contingent on a satisfactory background check and interview, and subject to ministry needs).
#

http://creationmuseum.org/about/give/volunteer/faq/


Please don't say I made something up if you will not check yourself.

 

[MikeSun5]

Please don't say I made something up if you will not check yourself.

...uh... that's how to volunteer at the museum...

Where is the statement that visitors to the museum must sign? Or were you making that up?

 

[tsig]

...uh... that's how to volunteer at the museum...

Where is the statement that visitors to the museum must sign? Or were you making that up?

Since I said nothing about a visitor having to sign anything I don't know where you get this statement.

Feel free to continue this conversation between you and your strawmen but I will wait till you actually quote something I said.

 

[MikeSun5]

Since I said nothing about a visitor having to sign anything I don't know where you get this statement.

WTF? Read Post #48. If your response was to the first part of my quote, the error for not specifying what you were replying to was yours. Besides, your link still only covers volunteers. So it's still irrelevant.

Anyway, the road of conversation you're persuing implies that you believe that it's okay to antagonize an employee purely because you disagree with where they're employed. I'm not creating strawmen or mind-reading... just paying attention. ...but I'll let you clear it all up if I'm wrong:

Do you think it's okay to show up to an establishment that you disagree with
1.) in an enormous group,
2.) wearing clothing you know will offend, and
3.) antagonize the employees with questions meant to ridicule and instigate?

I just find it hard to believe that this outing is an information gathering event when they're using words like "invasion."

 

[tsig]

WTF? Read Post #48. If your response was to the first part of my quote, the error for not specifying what you were replying to was yours. Besides, your link still only covers volunteers. So it's still irrelevant.

Anyway, the road of conversation you're persuing implies that you believe that it's okay to antagonize an employee purely because you disagree with where they're employed. I'm not creating strawmen or mind-reading... just paying attention. ...but I'll let you clear it all up if I'm wrong:

Do you think it's okay to show up to an establishment that you disagree with
1.) in an enormous group,
2.) wearing clothing you know will offend, and
3.) antagonize the employees with questions meant to ridicule and instigate?

I just find it hard to believe that this outing is an information gathering event when they're using words like "invasion."

I quit beating my wife some time ago thank you.

 

[Robster FCD]

Do you think it's okay to show up to an establishment that you disagree with
1.) in an enormous group,
2.) wearing clothing you know will offend, and
3.) antagonize the employees with questions meant to ridicule and instigate?

I just find it hard to believe that this outing is an information gathering event when they're using words like "invasion."

1.) We are paying, after all.
2.) Communications have gone out from the SSA that plainly say if you are wondering if your shirt is acceptable, don't wear it. Personally, I'm wearing a short sleeve dress shirt and either my DNA tie or periodic table tie.
3.) We'll have to see about this one. I'm not quite as concerned about it as some are. From the discussion on Pharyngula, you would think we are planning on reenacting the siege at Helm's Deep, with chanting, banging spears on the ground, swords on shields.

From my point of view its just silliness and joking around. It concerns some on both sides, though, and the SSA is acting very responsibly in their planning and communications of expected behavior. Words like invasion, horde, etc. from this bunch should be just as concerning here as they are when the star wars cosplayers roll into town.

 

[tsig]

1.) We are paying, after all.
2.) Communications have gone out from the SSA that plainly say if you are wondering if your shirt is acceptable, don't wear it. Personally, I'm wearing a short sleeve dress shirt and either my DNA tie or periodic table tie.
3.) We'll have to see about this one. I'm not quite as concerned about it as some are. From the discussion on Pharyngula, you would think we are planning on reenacting the siege at Helm's Deep, with chanting, banging spears on the ground, swords on shields.

From my point of view its just silliness and joking around. It concerns some on both sides, though, and the SSA is acting very responsibly in their planning and communications of expected behavior. Words like invasion, horde, etc. from this bunch should be just as concerning here as they are when the star wars cosplayers roll into town.

You're taking away their fantasy.

Atheist hordes attacking innocent employees with withering rational questions where shall it all end!!!

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

I just found PZ's post from the 28th and I've moved from apprehensive back to supportive.

I just hope class acts like Pharyngula poster "bobxxxx" don't show up:

Posted by: bobxxxx | July 28, 2009 2:57 PM

Pro-science atheists are going to give their money to child-abuser Ken Ham and they have to promise to not laugh at the stupidity in his ridiculous fake museum. This makes no sense.

By the way, David Blaylock, Security Manager Department of Public Safety, since you're probably reading this thread, please read this message from me to you: You're a disgrace to your country, you're a stupid piece of ****, and you belong in prison for mental child abuse.

- eta About giggles, chortles and mockery.

A friend of mine and I attended a few sales pitches meetings where people along the lines of Creationists were speaking (Pastor David J. Smith and Ron Wyatt if you're familiar with them) and we had quite a few times where we exchanged rolleyes or "I can't believe he just said that" glances, but I never stood up and shouted "Randall, can you believe how stupid that idiot is and how moronic these rubes are for believing him".

I'm sure there will be problem if SSA visitors in clumps use their indoor voice and say amongst each other "man this sucks worse than I thought it would".

 

[MikeSun5]

From my point of view its just silliness and joking around.

Fair enough, I just hope more people are as lighthearted as you are (and I hope the museum's employees appreciate the humor ) I've said before, I applaud your intentions, I just don't think that 240 people going at once can keep it together. That's a lot of people. Seems more like a march on than a visit to the museum. Like I said, hopefully I'm wrong.

You're taking away their fantasy.

Atheist hordes attacking innocent employees with withering rational questions where shall it all end!!!

WTF?? You're out of it. Happy Saturday night to you, too.

Intentionally oblivious, militant atheist evangelist routinely missing points and avoiding questions, where shall it all end, indeed!!!
sheesh!

It's a little off topic, so I'll just link to a thread that came up a while back. It soon deteriorated into an atheism vs. agnosticism thread, but it started out asking why some atheists felt the need to confront believers and set them straight. I have met so many aggressive atheists like tsig who believe that it is their duty responsibility to confront the religious with logic -courtesy and politeness be damned. I can make my argument to a Creationist without being condescending or offensive, but that's obviously viewed by some as being too "soft." Apparently some people have to piss others off to make a point.

Hopefully all goes well and I have been spouting off for no reason.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Well, for some people it's hard to believe that there are people that believe in such stupid, idiotic nonsense. Going to the creationist museum can convince them otherwise.

It's like reading about the Grand Canyon, or seeing video of it.........it's just not as impressive as being there.

Your comparison between a trip to a Creationist museum and the GC is... (unintenionally?) hilarious.

One can find out all one needs to know without attending or giving them money. Hell, the money this group is giving them will put more of their flyers and pamphlets of beliefs into more mailboxes.