Going to the Creation "Museum"

[tsig]

I can sympathize with the idea of a covert visit just to see what the museum is like, but going there as a large organized group of people who are openly hostile to their beliefs, with their advance knowledge that you're coming, has the appearance of a transparent attempt to create an uncomfortable situation for them if not an outright confrontation.

If you people are realistic about this, you'll face the fact that with over 240 people going, you'll have no chance of avoiding trouble because you can't possibly control that many people, most of whom you don't even know. All it will take is one single troublemaker and that will be the end of it. And even in the unlikely event that every single one of you obeys their rules, what's to stop them from planting one of their own in your midst to trigger a scene that spoils it for all of you?

No, I'm afraid the claim that the only purpose of the trip is to see the place just doesn't make sense. I'm not buying it.

No one is asking for your approval or endorsement.

 

[Towlie]

No one is asking for your approval or endorsement.

Perhaps not, but I'm asking you to reconsider a plan that I fear might partially undermine the respect that atheists are fighting for, and perhaps even result in some favorable publicity and sympathy for these Christian fundamentalists. I really don't think this scheme is likely to help our cause, and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way.

 

[MikeSun5]

No one is asking for your approval or endorsement.

Nobody asked for our opinions either (yours included), but we offer them freely because that's what forums are for. Chill out.

I'm with Towlie on this one. This is not an "educational trip." It's a demonstration. Everyone involved knows Creationists think dinosaurs are Jesus Horses and they think Noah put predators right next to their own prey on his tiny boat. We know what they think, and we disagree. You have nothing to learn from that museum except how to hold your tongue (which I suspect will be a hard-learned lesson with a low success rate).

When a skeptic goes to the Smithsonian, they go to learn. If a skeptic goes to the Creationist Museum, it's to argue. I'm sure the hoots of laughter, moans and groans, and the condescending questions/attitude from the 240 strong "tour group" will offend not only the staff of the place, but the other patrons of the museum as well.

No tsig, they don't need our approval - they're going regardless - I'm just saying it's in poor taste. It's not cool to offend and irritate people, even if they believe in fairy tales. Good intentions, bad idea.

 

[SezMe]

Conversely, Towlie, if Robster and his group go and conduct themselves in high style, it will show some Creationists that we don't have horns and a twitchy tail. I don't think your fear of partially undermining atheist respect has any more validity than the potential that it will come out well.

 

[tsig]

Perhaps not, but I'm asking you to reconsider a plan that I fear might partially undermine the respect that atheists are fighting for, and perhaps even result in some favorable publicity and sympathy for these Christian fundamentalists. I really don't think this scheme is likely to help our cause, and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way.

Just how do we fight for that respect? By cowering in the corner and censoring ourselves?

Your concern is noted. And dismissed.

 

[Towlie]

I'll lay off now since I've said what I wanted to say, but I have one last thought to share: If this is your attitude toward a fellow atheist, I can't help wondering what it will be toward the people who run that museum.

 

[MikeSun5]

Just how do we fight for that respect?

By showing up at someone's job and harrassing them? Condescension?
Seriously dude, you think this is about respect? Respect for whom? And at the expense of whom?

I'll lay off now since I've said what I wanted to say, but I have one last thought to share: If this is your attitude toward a fellow atheist, I can't help wondering what it will be toward the people who run that museum.

Thank you.

If the group was like 20 people, I'd be inclined to believe the group would be able to behave themselves. Twelve times that? Yea right. Go to a movie theater with 20 people in it and see how quiet your movie is. Now add 220 more people and it gets pretty loud. Now imagine all 240 of those people hate the movie. Do you think they could keep quiet? What if you asked them to?

People get really brave when they have 239 like-minded people standing behind them. I'm sure they'll get even more brave when they realize museum employees can't argue back without getting fired. Hey! Maybe you guys will make some idiot Creationist cry! Good luck with that.

 

[geni]

I'm with Towlie on this one. This is not an "educational trip." It's a demonstration. Everyone involved knows Creationists think dinosaurs are Jesus Horses and they think Noah put predators right next to their own prey on his tiny boat. We know what they think, and we disagree. You have nothing to learn from that museum except how to hold your tongue (which I suspect will be a hard-learned lesson with a low success rate).

I've been to a (free) creationist museum. There are at least some points of interest. Admitedly they were mostly the result of morbid curiosity.

Museums do more than blandly present information. They give you a feeling for the ideas behind the museum (in the case of say the british museum it appears to be "no we are not at all sorry for the empire why do you ask?"). The stye in which stuff is presented is of some interst.

I'm sure the hoots of laughter, moans and groans, and the condescending questions/attitude from the 240 strong "tour group" will offend not only the staff of the place, but the other patrons of the museum as well.

It's the numbers I find worrying.

 

[geni]

Conversely, Towlie, if Robster and his group go and conduct themselves in high style, it will show some Creationists that we don't have horns and a twitchy tail. I don't think your fear of partially undermining atheist respect has any more validity than the potential that it will come out well.

The number of creationists they dirrectly encounter will be mininimal. The number who hear about the event with the museums spin on it is likely to be rather higher.

 

[tsig]

Nobody asked for our opinions either (yours included), but we offer them freely because that's what forums are for. Chill out.

I'm with Towlie on this one. This is not an "educational trip." It's a demonstration. Everyone involved knows Creationists think dinosaurs are Jesus Horses and they think Noah put predators right next to their own prey on his tiny boat. We know what they think, and we disagree. You have nothing to learn from that museum except how to hold your tongue (which I suspect will be a hard-learned lesson with a low success rate).

When a skeptic goes to the Smithsonian, they go to learn. If a skeptic goes to the Creationist Museum, it's to argue. I'm sure the hoots of laughter, moans and groans, and the condescending questions/attitude from the 240 strong "tour group" will offend not only the staff of the place, but the other patrons of the museum as well.

No tsig, they don't need our approval - they're going regardless - I'm just saying it's in poor taste. It's not cool to offend and irritate people, even if they believe in fairy tales. Good intentions, bad idea.

I'm glad you know the motivations of all those who are going. And you even know how they will act.

You are screaming foul before the ball is even pitched.

Why not see what happens before you start writing Ham's sermons for him?

 

[MikeSun5]

I've been to a (free) creationist museum. There are at least some points of interest. Admitedly they were mostly the result of morbid curiosity.

Museums do more than blandly present information. They give you a feeling for the ideas behind the museum (in the case of say the british museum it appears to be "no we are not at all sorry for the empire why do you ask?"). The stye in which stuff is presented is of some interst.

Good point. I like how you were sure to add the "free" bit. That group of 240 is likely to donate close to $2500 to those morons. I guess that's what it costs to antagonize Creationists.

Anyway, you nailed it here:

It's the numbers I find worrying.

and again here:

The number who hear about the event with the museums spin on it is likely to be rather higher.

I wonder what they hope to accomplish. If it's learning about how Creationists present their beliefs and the basis behind them, that's one thing. If they are like tsig, and they are going to the museum to "fight for respect," it's going to end badly. Both sides will claim "victory," and both sides will be left with a bad taste in their mouths.

 

[tsig]

I'll lay off now since I've said what I wanted to say, but I have one last thought to share: If this is your attitude toward a fellow atheist, I can't help wondering what it will be toward the people who run that museum.

I asked you some questions.

 

[MikeSun5]

I'm glad you know the motivations of all those who are going. And you even know how they will act.

Out of 240 people, I'm sure a few will think like you.

 

[thaiboxerken]

For some people, reading about nonsense and seeing video of it isn't very compelling. Going to a creationism museum could actually cement the notion that Creationists really do exist, and in large numbers.

 

[geni]

For some people, reading about nonsense and seeing video of it isn't very compelling. Going to a creationism museum could actually cement the notion that Creationists really do exist, and in large numbers.

Strangely no. I know from the results of various surveys that there are a significant number of nominal creationists in the UK (why they don't seem to show up outside such surveys no one is quite sure). Encounters with actual creationists (islamic society at uni and the museum) don't really give the impression of a group of any size.

 

[MikeSun5]

Going to a creationism museum could actually cement the notion that Creationists really do exist, and in large numbers.

Or maybe cement the notion of what one rich Creationist can do with an empty building.

For the record: I'm not against learning, just being mean.

 

[tsig]

Out of 240 people, I'm sure a few will think like you.

No one is asking you to go. No one is asking you to identify with the group that is going.

You take it upon yourself to criticize people you do not know for actions they have not done.

 

[tsig]

Or maybe cement the notion of what one rich Creationist can do with an empty building.

For the record: I'm not against learning, just being mean.

How do you disagree with someone then? At some point you have to say "you are wrong" this is widely perceived as being mean.

Nice guys don't just finish last they don't even get to enter the race.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Well, for some people it's hard to believe that there are people that believe in such stupid, idiotic nonsense. Going to the creationist museum can convince them otherwise.

It's like reading about the Grand Canyon, or seeing video of it.........it's just not as impressive as being there.

 

[Robster FCD]

Conversely, Towlie, if Robster and his group go and conduct themselves in high style, it will show some Creationists that we don't have horns and a twitchy tail. I don't think your fear of partially undermining atheist respect has any more validity than the potential that it will come out well.

Which is, I believe, the greater goal here. This group already expects us to be murderous, evil creatures (the boy with the gun ad), so being well behaved shows them who we really are. I'd expect to see local news people, perhaps even Fox news, so this is worth a lot to us regionally or even nationally.

But when it comes to improving Ken Ham's view of us, its not possible. The people who work there, maybe. The visitors, very possible.