Israel bans use of word "Nakba" in textbooks

Even if they don't own land, they have a right to live in Palestine.

Terrorists have no rights. Sorry.

But, in the other thread, you were asked a straight forward question:
"What do you think should happen to the people already living on the land?"

And, even from your weasel-word answers, I know that you don't respect the rights of Palestinians to live where they were born.

Weasel-worded? My, so testy! You and The Fool ask questions, but, never answer questions. Why is this the case? Maybe, because you are bereft of answers. When you respond in full to my repeated request to provide examples of Israel being a catastrophe for Arabs, then, I'll entertain responding to your question. I won't hold my breath.
 
What makes you so sure of what's in their minds?

Come on, where are their lands now? In Israel. You can't talk about their catastrophe without inferring that Israel was the cause of it.

You know, sometimes an acknowledgement of facts and an apology can help to move things forward.
With the many wars and intifadas that have occurred since then, I think the Israelis have made amends enough.

They're even. Now go forward.
 
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The Muslims slaughtered Jews, and Christians, in the Moslem Conquest, forced others into religious conversion and those not massacred endured lives of subjugation as dhimmis. It was not a pretty picture, so, please don't try to put some kind of positive spin on what had happened.

All I did was tell you the facts. It was the Romans, not Muslims, who exiled the Jews from Israel. It was the Muslims who let Jews return to Israel.
 
All I did was tell you the facts. It was the Romans, not Muslims, who exiled the Jews from Israel. It was the Muslims who let Jews return to Israel.

You forgot to mention the fact that the Muslims invaded Palestine and massacred Jews and Christians. Allahu Akbar!
 
I suppose there are as many definitions of a Palestinian as there are Palestinians. Its probably even more splintered than the argument of "What is an Israeli"

What is an Israeli? That would be a citizen of Israel. No "splinters". Is there a country of Palestine of which citizens are Palestiniains? Nooooo. Wrong. Once, again.
 
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Suleiman the Great allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem, after the Crusaders had banished and murdered the Jews.

Turkey and many other Muslim nations took in Jews fleeing from the Spanish exile and Inquisition.
 
Suleiman the Great allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem, after the Crusaders had banished and murdered the Jews.

Turkey and many other Muslim nations took in Jews fleeing from the Spanish exile and Inquisition.

anti Crusader propaganda, was a muslim false flag ;)
 
It's not our inability to explain -- it's your inability to understand.

One person reads Morris' answer to the question: "According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?" and understands the meaning of "Nakba" -- the other person asks "so what's this about a catastrophe?"


I finally located a letter-to-the editor from Benny Morris that he wrote with people like you in mind, those who misrepresent Morris at every turn for your anti-Israeli propaganda purposes and who are uninformed about Middle Eastern history. Read and learn (Well, one can only hope). Morris corroborates everything I've been trying to instruct you on. No need to thank me, I'm a giver! Happy Nakba, baby!

Israel And The Palestinians, Benny Morris...

Israel-haters are fond of citing - and more often, mis-citing - my work in support of their arguments. Let me offer some corrections.

The Palestinian Arabs were not responsible "in some bizarre way" ( Senator David Norris, January 31st) for what befell them in 1948. Their responsibility was very direct and simple.

In defiance of the will of the international community, as embodied in the UN General Assembly Resolution of November 29th, 1947 (No. 181), they launched hostilities against the Jewish community in Palestine in the hope of aborting the emergence of the Jewish state and perhaps destroying that community. But they lost; and one of the results was the displacement of 700,000 of them from their homes.

It is true, as Erskine Childers pointed out long ago, that there were no Arab radio broadcasts urging the Arabs to flee en masse; indeed, there were broadcasts by several Arab radio stations urging them to stay put. But, on the local level, in dozens of localities around Palestine, Arab leaders advised or ordered the evacuation of women and children or whole communities, as occurred in Haifa in late April, 1948. And Haifa's Jewish mayor, Shabtai Levy, did, on April 22nd, plead with them to stay, to no avail.
Most of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of war (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of victorious Arab invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops.
The displacement of the 700,000 Arabs who became "refugees" - and I put the term in inverted commas, as two-thirds of them were displaced from one part of Palestine to another and not from their country (which is the usual definition of a refugee) - was not a "racist crime" (David Landy, January 24th) but the result of a national conflict and a war, with religious overtones, from the Muslim perspective, launched by the Arabs themselves.

There was no Zionist "plan" or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of "ethnic cleansing".
Plan Dalet (Plan D), of March 10th, 1948 (it is open and available for all to read in the IDF Archive and in various publications), was the master plan of the Haganah - the Jewish military force that became the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) - to counter the expected pan-Arab assault on the emergent Jewish state. That's what it explicitly states and that's what it was. And the invasion of the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq duly occurred, on May 15th.

It is true that Plan D gave the regional commanders carte blanche to occupy and garrison or expel and destroy the Arab villages along and behind the front lines and the anticipated Arab armies' invasion routes. And it is also true that mid-way in the 1948 war the Israeli leaders decided to bar the return of the "refugees" (those "refugees" who had just assaulted the Jewish community), viewing them as a potential fifth column and threat to the Jewish state's existence. I for one cannot fault their fears or logic.

The demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies - much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two.
I would recommend that the likes of Norris and Landy read some history books and become acquainted with the facts, not recycle shopworn Arab propaganda. They might then learn, for example, that the "Palestine War" of 1948 (the "War of Independence," as Israelis call it) began in November 1947, not in May 1948. By May 14th close to 2,000 Israelis had died - of the 5,800 dead suffered by Israel in the whole war ( ie almost 1 per cent of the Jewish population of Palestine/Israel, which was about 650,000).
Yours, etc,

Prof BENNY MORRIS

[Irish Times, Thu, 21 Feb 2008]
 
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"It is true that Plan D gave the regional commanders carte blanche to occupy and garrison or expel and destroy the Arab villages along and behind the front lines and the anticipated Arab armies' invasion routes."
Morris.

but no plans existed to expell Arabs....except for some plans.

So Marc39 is morris a goodie again now? or should this stuff be rejected for the reasons you say other stuff of his should be rejected?


carry on...
 
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Oh yea.....before I forget. Marc39, that assertion you attribute to me and keep following me around pestering for me to support it. You remember the one....Something about Israel being a catastrophe or something (its hard to say for sure, it changes a bit every time you claim I asserted it)......have you found it yet? Or is it easier to just keep asking me to back it up?
 
The War of Independence is, correctly, highlighted in Israeli schoolbooks as it was a valiantly fought war that resulted in the realization of the dream of Israeli statehood.

This is a matter of historical fact. Arabs, perversely, characterizing a war STARTED BY ARABS as resulting in a catastrophe that is, somehow, Israel's fault is demented.

By the way, have you figured out, yet, how Israel has been a catastrophe for Arabs? I've asked you 10 times.

One person reads Morris' answer to the question: "According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?" and understands the meaning of "Nakba" -- the other person asks "so what's this about a catastrophe?"

You are suggesting Israel apologize for existing? No rational person would agree.

America has apologised for what it did to the Native Americans. Australia has apologised for what it did to its Aboriginal population.

Admit what you have done.

The historically accurate narrative is that Arabs launched a war against Israel in 1948, lost the war and the Arab refugees were rejected for resettlement by their own Arab brethren.

War crimes are war crimes even if you didn't start the war.

I finally located a letter-to-the editor from Benny Morris that he wrote with people like you in mind, those who misrepresent Morris at every turn for your anti-Israeli propaganda purposes and who are uninformed about Middle Eastern history. Read and learn (Well, one can only hope). Morris corroborates everything I've been trying to instruct you on. No need to thank me, I'm a giver! Happy Nakba, baby!

Israel And The Palestinians, Benny Morris...



[Irish Times, Thu, 21 Feb 2008]

You have noted, haven't you, that I keep saying "historians from both sides of the political spectrum" when refering to Morris and Pappe? That is because I know what kind of a bastard Morris is -- this doesn't make him wrong, just a bastard. He approves of what was done. He even criticises that it didn't go far enough.

When he says there was no policy of expelling Arabs he means there was no policy of expelling ALL Arabs -- he admits, in the very letter you quote, that Israel's policy did include expelling some Arabs. This was decided on a case by case basis. This still means, as I claimed, that Morris agrees that Arabs were expelled by the Israeli government. If not, then who supplied the expulsion orders signed by Moshe Carmel and Yitzhak Rabin?

Split hairs all you like: Arabs were expelled by the Israeli government and massacres occured for which no-one was tried.
 
America has apologised for what it did to the Native Americans. Australia has apologised for what it did to its Aboriginal population.

Admit what you have done.

As your hero, Benny Morris, has written, the nakba was the fault of the Arabs. Need I already re-post Morris's comments, given your penchant for misrepresenting him and your warped view of history?

War crimes are war crimes even if you didn't start the war.

Initiating an unprovoked war is illegal, under the UN Charter. Shall we go back to 1948 and ask the International Criminal Court to open an inquiry into Arab war crimes?

You have noted, haven't you, that I keep saying "historians from both sides of the political spectrum" when refering to Morris and Pappe? That is because I know what kind of a bastard Morris is -- this doesn't make him wrong, just a bastard. He approves of what was done. He even criticises that it didn't go far enough.

Testy! First, Morris was your hero when you thought he believed Israel had a governmental policy of mass Arab expulsion. Now that I showed you Morris says there was no such plan, you're cursing him out. Nice.

When he says there was no policy of expelling Arabs he means there was no policy of expelling ALL Arabs -- he admits, in the very letter you quote, that Israel's policy did include expelling some Arabs. This was decided on a case by case basis. This still means, as I claimed, that Morris agrees that Arabs were expelled by the Israeli government. If not, then who supplied the expulsion orders signed by Moshe Carmel and Yitzhak Rabin?

Still trying to misrepresent Morris for your own venomous anti-Israeli purposes? How pathetic.

Here's a clue for you, since you are without one: Ben-Gurion wore two hats during the 1948 War, as BOTH Prime Minister and Minister of Defense. When Ben-Gurion ordered the Israeli military to evacuate Arabs, it was for MILITARY reasons, NOT for POLITICAL reasons.

As I have instructed you, UN Res. 181 according Israeli statehood entailed an Arab population. Can you wrap your brain around this concept? There are 1.5 million Arabs in Israel today. They didn't arrive from Mars.

Split hairs all you like: Arabs were expelled by the Israeli government and massacres occured for which no-one was tried.

Massacres were perpetrated by Arabs before the war even started. The Hebron Massacre happened in 1929, which you, no doubt, are also unaware of.
 
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Oh yea.....before I forget. Marc39, that assertion you attribute to me and keep following me around pestering for me to support it. You remember the one....Something about Israel being a catastrophe or something (its hard to say for sure, it changes a bit every time you claim I asserted it)......have you found it yet? Or is it easier to just keep asking me to back it up?

You know absolutely nothing about the matter, as you know nothing about Middle East affairs, so, it's futile to continue to pretend otherwise.
 
"It is true that Plan D gave the regional commanders carte blanche to occupy and garrison or expel and destroy the Arab villages along and behind the front lines and the anticipated Arab armies' invasion routes."
Morris.

but no plans existed to expell Arabs....except for some plans.

So Marc39 is morris a goodie again now? or should this stuff be rejected for the reasons you say other stuff of his should be rejected?


carry on...

Why do you persist in even attempting to discuss Middle East history when you know nothing? You cannot even articulate what a Palestinian is without melting into a puddle of drivel. Plan D was a contingency plan. You see, The Fool, every military have contingency plans and Plan D was such a plan--a defensive plan, not an offensive plan--based on the fear of a heightened level of Arab aggression.
 
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Why do you persist in even attempting to discuss Middle East history when you know nothing? You cannot even articulate what a Palestinian is without melting into a puddle of drivel. Plan D was a contingency plan. You see, The Fool, every military have contingency plans and Plan D was such a plan--a defensive plan, not an offensive plan--based on the fear of a heightened level of Arab aggression.

so you are claiming plan D was not enacted? It was only a contingency plan?

Have you read Yitzhak Levi's book? To help you out....he was head of the Jerusalem Shai (Hagannah intelligence service) he wrote his account of the implementation of Plan D in his book, Nine Measures (in Hebrew, Tish'a Kabin).

good luck with this latest claim...
 
so you are claiming plan D was not enacted? It was only a contingency plan?

Have you read Yitzhak Levi's book? To help you out....he was head of the Jerusalem Shai (Hagannah intelligence service) he wrote his account of the implementation of Plan D in his book, Nine Measures (in Hebrew, Tish'a Kabin).

good luck with this latest claim...

And, you are pretending, now, to be well-read on the '48 War? Have you ever opened one book on Middle Eastern history? Of course, not. You have Wikipedia. :)

Read Benny Morris's book on the 1948 War, The Fool. In it, Morris writes Plan D did not constitute an Israeli governmental policy of mass Arab expulsion, but, was a security strategy for the protection of Jews against Arab aggression.

Also, I commend to you Gelber's book on the '48 War, The Fool, who, too, writes that Plan D was a defensive security measure and not one based on an offensive program for mass Arab expulsion.
 
And, you are pretending, now, to be well-read on the '48 War? Have you ever opened one book on Middle Eastern history? Of course, not. You have Wikipedia. :)

Read Benny Morris's book on the 1948 War, The Fool. In it, Morris writes Plan D did not constitute an Israeli governmental policy of mass Arab expulsion, but, was a security strategy for the protection of Jews against Arab aggression.

Also, I commend to you Gelber's book on the '48 War, The Fool, who, too, writes that Plan D was a defensive security measure and not one based on an offensive program for mass Arab expulsion.
Thats nice...but have you decided if it was a contingency plan or if it was enacted? You appear to imply you read books about it, were the pages where this "contingency" plan was enacted missing?
 
Thats nice...but have you decided if it was a contingency plan or if it was enacted? You appear to imply you read books about it, were the pages where this "contingency" plan was enacted missing?

Yes, becoming informed on Middle Eastern affairs is "nice" But, given this thread pertains to the so-called nakba, and, not rather obscure military operations during the '48 War, let's stay on-topic and have you explain to us, specifically, how Israel has been a nakba, or catastrophe, for the Arabs.
 

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