Merged Alien Big Cats in the UK?

[HansMustermann]

Depends on: cat paws on what? IMHO. On soft carpet, maybe not, but on any kind of hard floor and a quiet enough setting (e.g., at night) I think most people can hear a cat.

 

[zooterkin]

Strength of a Leopard ends when it is dealing with a 450 lb Silverback.

We don't seem to have many of those round here, and I suspect the same is true even in Scotland. Anyway, they'd be 32st 2lb Silverbacks.

(ETA: 204.5kg for the youngsters, and Rolfe.)
(ETA: Sorry, that was less than gallant; 204.5kg for the benefit of Rolfe and other youngsters. )

 

[HansMustermann]

Is this the same incident here?
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-chicago-cougar-shot-webapr15,0,98147.story

Too add a thought:

Maybe these "UK big cats" are just "domestic cats" infected with some unusual wild strain of CDV,
and morph into what we would call Pantherinae, or in this case a (large) diseased felid.
Unless these cats are resistant/elusive to "pathogens" also?
I guess these unverified vertebrates elude exposure to dogs, ticks, and the usual farm beasts.
The lion has a cooperative ambush... I guess these "Big UK Cats" may have a co-op elusive strategy.
Like some of our cool cryptoids over here in North America, they never end up on the table.

Actually, _if_ such a big cat existed, my wildly uninformed bet would be more on "hybrid" than "mutant". Some hybrids of closely related species -- e.g., the Liger -- end up with some hormonal imbalance that makes them not stop growing.

I have no idea what could a moggie breed with for something like that to happen, though.

 

[William Parcher]

thats why I agreed with you and stated that I was going for the source at Parchers request. Are you even slightly interested in what a government organisation which no one has investigated yet has to say on the matter or are you convinced that you are the font of all knowledge

What is surprising is that we don't already have this information available on the web. I mean, why haven't the ABC enthusiasts tracked this stuff down yet? Big Cats are seen with night-vision and nobody is interested in the actual reports? A Puma skull is found in Devon and that is all there is to that story?

Are there any UK websites or forums devoted to ABC skepticism?

 

[Marduk]

What is surprising is that we don't already have this information available on the web. I mean, why haven't the ABC enthusiasts tracked this stuff down yet? Big Cats are seen with night-vision and nobody is interested in the actual reports? A Puma skull is found in Devon and that is all there is to that story?

Are there any UK websites or forums devoted to ABC skepticism?

I expect because like most other woo subjects they are not either controlled or set up by anyone who knows the rigours expected of a scientific hypothesis. The man who runs the British Big Cat Society is an ex carpenter who's income is now reliant on lectures that he gives on the subject, so debunking his own claims is not in his best interests. However he is very active in debunking some of the more ludicrous claims and hoaxes
see here bottom of page
http://www.britishbigcats.org/evidence.php
so he does have some rigeur, just not enough to damage his own income


I know myself from past experience that there is a big difference between lecturing as a form of entertainment and academic discipline. When I was working my way up studying Mesopotamia it was almost a year before I understood how to catch the attention of the academic community by demonstrating knowledge rather than open mindedness and another year before anyone really wrote back

 

[William Parcher]

However he is very active in debunking some of the more ludicrous claims and hoaxes see here bottom of page
http://www.britishbigcats.org/evidence.php
so he does have some rigeur, just not enough to damage his own income

I've seen those hoaxes before. I don't think "cuddly toy" is the proper explanation for the Norman Evans hoax photo. I think this is Photoshop and possibly uses a real dog for part of the body. Start with a shot of a reclining black lab and then shoop it into a black panther. Note that the area from the chest forwards is pure black with highly defined edges. I have seen this hoax explained as a toy on numerous sites, but nobody has produced an example of the toy that was used. A stuffed animal collector (some are extremely versed in all such toys) ought to be able to identify the exact plush toy that was used.

 

[Rolfe]

you wasted two hours on a post that was meaningless then, I had already stated quite clearly that I was contacting the forestry comission at 10:31 and asked you to hold of until I had an answer, since then you've been telling me over and over that the evidence presented so far isn't good enough, I was telling you that I knew it wasn't good enough, thats why I was mailing the forestry commission. Like I have said several times, if you don't bother to read previous statements about following up evidence then whats the point in you posting anything

I'll waste my time any way I want, thanks. (Our local TV relay transmitter went on the fritz last night, so the usual time-wasting opportunity was denied to me.) At 8.30, which is when I started the fine-tooth comb job on the DEFRA table, I was hardly in a position to see something you'd posted at 10.31, you know!

I found that trawl through the DEFRA table quite interesting, if only to see how many mistakes I could spot. I find it telling that anyone would link to that document as if it was evidence of anything at all, without having given it the cursory glance which would reveal that it was riddled with errors.

youre like a stuck record over and over and over saying the same thing, I heard what you had to say the first time buddy and I acknowledged it, thats why I agreed with you and stated that I was going for the source at Parchers request. Are you even slightly interested in what a government organisation which no one has investigated yet has to say on the matter or are you convinced that you are the font of all knowledge

So, you've decided to abandon the Helensburgh sighting which was the subject of the OP. You agree that was something unremarkable? Fine.

You've also decided to ignore the DEFRA table. Well, it's a mess. However, as I said, once you realise that the Suffolk incident with the dead sheep has been recorded as Norfolk, it seems to be complete as far as we know, as regards to mainland Great Britain. So it is actually a useful resource as far as that goes.

You've decided that the Forest of Dean is the place to look, in spite of its having been denuded of all cloven-hooved livestock in 2001. You're new to this, aren't you? The first question in that case, might be to see if any of these 11 DEFRA cases might possibly relate to that area.

The Forest of Dean is on the Welsh borders, in Gloucestershire, north of the Severn (nothing to do with the New Forest, which is in Hampshire, which you seemed to confuse it with earlier). Now, how many of the DEFRA cases (which are categorised by county) were found in Gloucestershire? That's right, NONE AT ALL. Nothing seems to have been found in that area.

If it's pumas you're after, then apart from Felicity, there is only one and it was in Leicestershire, quite some distance away, twenty years ago.

Do you actually know anything about the Forest of Dean? I've never been there, but I understand it's a very popular tourist spot. It's not very big - it's roughly circular, with a diameter of only about 5 miles. That's how they managed to clear it of wild boar and deer in 2001 without too much difficulty. There are several public roads through it and lots of paths, and it's studded with picnic areas. It's surrounded by main roads and by pretty villages, and the countryside around it is intensively farmed.

Now, just thinking about this sensibly, how credible do you really think it is that there's a breeding population of pumas living in there? Or even a solitary puma? With alleged sightings being rare, and questionable to put it mildly. Local farmers on the edge of the forest (remember, it's only 5 miles across) are not reporting mysterious livestock losses. And what do we postulate happened in 2001? Does this alleged colony date from later than that? In which case, where did the breeding stock actually come from, and who put them into this small enclave? Otherwise, how did they survive during the foot-and-mouth panic, when not only the Forest but the surrounding farms were all de-stocked?

If you're postulating real, warm, breathing animals rather then invisible pink unicorns, then these are the things you really have to consider.

you clearly have lost the plot, you've been slagging off people you don't know, calling people liars and making spurious claims on my character, your house is dirty, go clean it


last time in big bold letters at the end of the post just so you can't miss it
I AM CONTACTING THE FORESTRY COMMISSION TO SEE IF THE NEWS REPORT HAS ANY SUBSTANCE, WILL YOU WAIT FOR AN ANSWER OR WOULD YOU PREFER TO CARRY ON WASTING YOUR OWN AND EVERYONE ELSE'S TIME ?

If I was religious I would be worried about taking the lords name in vain at this point

I think you need to stop these outbursts, if you want to keep posting. And I'm quite religious as it happens, don't be such a prude.

Now just think again about what I said above. You're putting in an FoI request to follow up on a reasonable suspicion (that you seem only to have thought of yesterday) that there is a breeding colony of pumas (or something of a similar size) in an area of Gloucestershire which is only five miles across, with a lot of human activity in and around it.

How seriously do you expect the Forestry Commission to take you? Any more seriously than they take that Danny fruitcake?

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

What is surprising is that we don't already have this information available on the web. I mean, why haven't the ABC enthusiasts tracked this stuff down yet? Big Cats are seen with night-vision and nobody is interested in the actual reports? A Puma skull is found in Devon and that is all there is to that story?

Are there any UK websites or forums devoted to ABC skepticism?

Look at what I posted about the Forest of Dean. It's tiny. There's nothing hiding in there that the rangers don't know all about.

The "big cat" meme in that location is really all down to one fruitcake carrying on about it. In fact, in the (several) press reports I found saying that various sighting were credible, it was actually Danny or one of his mates who was being reported as giving the accolade of "credible" to the story, and most of the stories mainly just seem to be reporting what Danny is feeding the reporter. It's the sort of thing they like to put in local news on a slow day.

I don't know what the deal is with that skull, but from the utter lack of any interest in it, I suspect it's another case of "nothing to see here, move along folks". The DEFRA response to that is just a blocking tactic. They said they have no reason to believe there are big cats living in the British countryside. Yes, which says precisely nothing about the skull, as that isn't alive. The answer is intended to head off the Dannys of this world, rather than to inform - typical government brush-off. And nobody else has produced any other information about it. Which suggests it wasn't anything interesting. Or they lost it.

Rolfe.

 

[William Parcher]

Rolfe, I want to thank you for your outstanding work and informative posts. It's interesting investigative work and it feels like it hasn't been done before. That's why I asked about the ABC skeptic sites. Have others already gone through the DEFRA list and found the same problems that you did? Is it buried in some pro-ABC forum thread?

 

[William Parcher]

I'm especially curious about how the forest rangers concluded that is was Big Cats (Panthera or Puma) that they were seeing with thermal night-vision (non camera type).

I think that estimating size may be challenging with infrared (IR) vision. Warm objects glow and cool surroundings don't. Non-living objects around the living subject may not appear clearly. It could prevent a proper frame-of-reference to determine size of the glowing thing. I'm hoping that the ranger reports give objective explanations that were cause for concluding - Big Cats. Can you screw up an IR moggie sighting and think you are seeing a leopard?

 

[Marduk]

I think you need to stop these outbursts, if you want to keep posting. And I'm quite religious as it happens, don't be such a prude.

It wasn't an outburst, it was a response to stimulus, did you read the big letters or not, I can post them larger if it helps ?

Now just think again about what I said above. You're putting in an FoI request to follow up on a reasonable suspicion (that you seem only to have thought of yesterday) that there is a breeding colony of pumas (or something of a similar size) in an area of Gloucestershire which is only five miles across, with a lot of human activity in and around it.

no I'm not, like a poor marksman you keep missing the point don't you, how many times do I need to state what I am asking them for, it is the report made by the two rangers who claimed to have seen a pair of big cats, the report itself, nothing more, nothing less, if you are incapable of understanding any of my posts, and it certainly is starting to seem that way then just go back and read Mr Parchers original request will you, I'm getting sick of you wasting my time

How seriously do you expect the Forestry Commission to take you? Any more seriously than they take that Danny fruitcake?

I expect them to take it as seriously as the letter of the law, its quite specific on these matters

 

[ponderingturtle]

It is just like a conspiracy theory!

Yep, someone cross the genes of a bigfoot with a house cat and set the unholy spawn loose in Britian.

Now all the vets are covering it up, so as not to alarm the public.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Here, I'll make you happy. The San Diego Zoo made special mention of baboons because they are really different than other monkeys. You see, baboons are bipeds.

Not really. When they walk and especialy run they use all four limbs on the ground.

My dog can walk on two legs sometimes, that does not make him a biped.

 

[Rolfe]

Rolfe, I want to thank you for your outstanding work and informative posts. It's interesting investigative work and it feels like it hasn't been done before. That's why I asked about the ABC skeptic sites. Have others already gone through the DEFRA list and found the same problems that you did? Is it buried in some pro-ABC forum thread?

No, it's just not a subject of any interest to anyone outside the little fruitcake club that it the British Big Cats Society. And as they're all fruitcakes, I'm not surprised they haven't analysed any of their "evidence". I'm just interested because of those sheep that were worried here last year. Two had their throats torn out in just the way an expert predator would do it, so we all sat down and had a discussion about it.

We concluded that any animal killing for food wouldn't have left the carcasses otherwise unscathed. We concluded that although the two throat-tearing incidents were close in time, they were too far apart in distance to have been the work of the same predator unless someone had driven it in a vehicle across the Forth Road Bridge. We concluded that the three incidents on our own farm here were so sporadic they suggested a predator that was only here very intermittently. We also noted the very varied attack angles on these (one throat, one flank and one hind leg) suggested an inexperienced predator. And again, we noted that the predator had abandoned the sheep after the attacks, with apparently no attempt to eat them. Also, we noted that the shepherd concerned reliably showed up with almost every casualty he discovered for us to investigate, and that he knew exactly how many sheep he had, so we pretty much knew that there were no other deaths. And he hadn't seen anything roaming the fields. And we could see that the amount of meat missing from the carcasses we did have wouldn't have kept a spaniel alive.

So while we were speaking jokingly of the "Pentland Beast", logic dictated that we had a sheep-worrying dog in the area, which was only intermittently getting access to the sheep. I reported this to the police and the SSPCA, and even went on local radio about it. The attacks seem to have stopped. It would be wildly exciting if there was indeed something in tham thar hills. The Pentland Hills (where about half of the attacks happened) at least occupy an area significantly larger than the Forest of Dean. But it doesn't stack up, and that's the boring truth.

Rolfe.

 

[Delscottio]

It wasn't an outburst, it was a response to stimulus, did you read the big letters or not, I can post them larger if it helps ?

no I'm not, like a poor marksman you keep missing the point don't you, how many times do I need to state what I am asking them for, it is the report made by the two rangers who claimed to have seen a pair of big cats, the report itself, nothing more, nothing less, if you are incapable of understanding any of my posts, and it certainly is starting to seem that way then just go back and read Mr Parchers original request will you, I'm getting sick of you wasting my time

I expect them to take it as seriously as the letter of the law, its quite specific on these matters

How will the report (if there is one) get you any further forward though? Without other supporting evidence its pretty weak stuff.

 

[Rolfe]

I'm especially curious about how the forest rangers concluded that is was Big Cats (Panthera or Puma) that they were seeing with thermal night-vision (non camera type).

I think that estimating size may be challenging with infrared (IR) vision. Warm objects glow and cool surroundings don't. Non-living objects around the living subject may not appear clearly. It could prevent a proper frame-of-reference to determine size of the glowing thing. I'm hoping that the ranger reports give objective explanations that were cause for concluding - Big Cats. Can you screw up an IR moggie sighting and think you are seeing a leopard?

I've had a look at the BBC reports, because they tend to be the least sensationalist.

The one about that specific incident is very unhelpful.

Commission spokesman Stuart Burgess said the sightings had been confirmed by "very experienced" rangers unlikely to mistake deer for big cats.

"Both were observed in low light, using heat-activated vision equipment while they were carrying out a deer census," he said.

"The colour of the animals couldn't be made out, but these are very experienced guys and they know what is and what isn't a deer.

"One definitely believed that what he saw was some sort of large cat."

It seems as if all the word "reliable" means is that they have confirmed one of the Rangers really believed he saw a big cat.

The other recent report I turned up was a good demonstration of how the BBCS are stirring up the media. (This is referring to a different incident.)

Big cat expert Frank Tunbridge, 60, who has 25 years experience believes the men's sightings are "credible".

He thinks the reason behind an increase in sightings at this time of year are due to the breeding season.

"I've had 12 this year that I am investigating in the Stroud Valley. As they are breeding they take more risks and go out looking for a mate.

"They are non-aggressive and some have lost their fear of people."

It's just silly. If there are enough animals there to form a breeding colony, and some have lost their fear of people, where the hell are they in this very manicured and populous countryside?

But this guy is an "expert", so his views are reported with a straight face, and he can actually validate the vague story in question as "credible". It's fluff like this that lies behind all these reports. It's just that a couple of the reports came from forest rangers, who are propably as susceptible to mistaking the size of an ordinary cat as anybody else.

To see how the stories grow in the telling, look at this one. The original report of the story in question can be found here.

We agreed with the police that while either cat could be a hybrid with a few wildcat genes within it, these were behaviours typical to wild-living feral cats and it was pure terrible luck that had taken place. The police intended to look at it some more and establish for certain if the cat might be best re-homed by someone like Cats Protection.

A few days later a series of media stories found their way to me, starting with the story of a 3ft feral, progressing to a 4ft "big cat" and culminating in a possible puma that had stalked the lady through the woods before charging after her and trying to drag her off to its lair - twice.

According to reports, police were apparently now telling people to lock themselves in their homes while the big cat lurked the Highlands.

Interestingly, transmogrification happens a lot with big cats in the UK - like the lion that turned out to be a Canadian lynx about the same size as a wildcat; or the black panther that turned out to be a soft toy; or the other black panther that turned out to be a cardboard cut-out; or the innumerable black panthers that turned out to be a farm cat.

The media love tales of British big cats. Every now and then a wild cat species does escape a private collection, but it has no idea how to hunt, most are designed for very hot climates and even if that doesn't get them then gamekeepers, farmers, their lack of any road sense or anything else to breed with certainly will.

That sums it up very well. The media love the stories, and people read them, but very very few people actually take them seriously, or if they do, proceed to become obsessive about it.

Rolfe.

 

[William Parcher]

Two had their throats torn out in just the way an expert predator would do it, so we all sat down and had a discussion about it.

You probably already know this stuff. Canids do not have a killing bite, felids do. Canids have to tear, shake and pull until the prey succumbs to blood loss or shock. Their paws are useless for gripping large prey and so they literally hang on by their teeth alone. If they bite the throat, it could indeed "rip it out". It is rarely a quick death and feeding may begin before that. The big cats are set up to deliver a bite to the throat or skull that causes death without any tearing or pulling with the teeth. There seems to be an instinct directed towards crushing the trachea and maintaining it until suffocation. Their killing bite is not applied to anything other than the head and neck. The different species of big cat have slight variations on how they do the killing, but it's all the same theme. Hold on tight with the claws and direct your bite(s) at the neck/head. Attacking any other part of the body is a waste of time and is potentially dangerous. Your teeth are not designed to kill that way.

The canids grab almost anywhere with their teeth and pull/shake. If they grab the throat of a fleeing sheep, they may try to plant their feet which causes the struggling animal to rip its own throat by frantic pulling away.

We also noted the very varied attack angles on these (one throat, one flank and one hind leg) suggested an inexperienced predator. And again, we noted that the predator had abandoned the sheep after the attacks, with apparently no attempt to eat them.

Attacking the flanks or legs is just not what big cats do - it's what canids do. When in doubt - shave the carcass and look for penetrating claw marks.

 

[William Parcher]

transmogrification

When a moggie becomes a different moggie.

 

[Rolfe]

It wasn't an outburst, it was a response to stimulus, did you read the big letters or not, I can post them larger if it helps ?

Suit yourself. If you'd rather thrash around aimlessly than read posts that are trying to help you, that's up to you.

no I'm not, like a poor marksman you keep missing the point don't you, how many times do I need to state what I am asking them for, it is the report made by the two rangers who claimed to have seen a pair of big cats, the report itself, nothing more, nothing less, if you are incapable of understanding any of my posts, and it certainly is starting to seem that way then just go back and read Mr Parchers original request will you, I'm getting sick of you wasting my time

I expect them to take it as seriously as the letter of the law, its quite specific on these matters

Yes, I get it. You've put in an FoI request for the reports by the Rangers who thought they saw big cats. Except that it might only be one, as the BBC report which quoted their spokesman only referred to one of the Rangers believing he'd seen a big cat.

What do you expect to get? It's possible that these "reports" were only verbal. Given that the incident already seems to have been the subject of an FoI request, and all that seems to have come out of that is a statement by a spokesman that yes, one of these men really believes he saw a big cat, I rather suspect that might be the case.

Suppose he wrote something down. I can't imagine that it will tell you any more than we already know. That one (or possibly two) Forest Rangers thought they saw something they thought was a "big cat" while using night-vision thermal imaging.

The fact that this has already been subject to FoI may be reason for them to refuse the request anyway.

Where do you think this is taking you? What reason do you have for believing there's any more to this than the usual mistaken-size sightings in poor visibility conditions, followed by the usual Chinese Whispers? If (as I suspect) you hadn't even thought about any of this until yesterday, don't you think it might be worth sitting on it for a while and thinking about the possibilities and probabilities in a sensible manner, rather than firing off FoI requests just because you read something on a fruitcake web site yesterday?

Rolfe.

 

[JcR]

I really, really hope you're joking. Do you really imagine we don't know what strains of CDV are around? And the answer is very little to none, because widespread vaccination of puppies has pretty much wiped it out.

However, even in the days when CDV was rampant, it never infected cats. And we never had pet cats morphing into diseased werewolves before our very eyes.

This one hits a new high in the paranoid fantasy stakes.

Rolfe.

I hope I was joking to... I shouldn't make light of such an highly contagious viral infection. I had large felids (lions in particular) on the brain. Maybe my brain tissue needs to be examined? Might find some positively labeled crazy antigen up there somewhere.
Anyhow. Yes I wish the video was a little more clear, though it does look like the cat? isn't much taller than the rail, considering the angle and poor quality, of the video. I guess it would have been ideal to be on the same level.
We had three large cats (Lion, Tiger and a cougar) in my area, kept as pets. Due to new bylaws they were relocated. They needed much better living quarters anyways. The black "blob cat" reminded me of my cat.