What was operation gladio

[SezMe]

The thing about asking here instead of just reading Wikipedia is that a discussion might ensue. Not everyone will want to be involved, and they're free to say things like "Wikipedia. Try it."

If the OPer really wanted a discussion, he would have started with some conclusions he had drawn from some background reading then maybe asked a question or two. The pump having been primed, the discussion would immediately take off.

As it is, the OP is basically saying, "Do my homework for me."

 

[NWO Sentryman]

well, in killing hope, william blum has a section on gladio.

 

[Caustic Logic]

If the OPer really wanted a discussion, he would have started with some conclusions he had drawn from some background reading then maybe asked a question or two. The pump having been primed, the discussion would immediately take off.

As it is, the OP is basically saying, "Do my homework for me."

I meant to do this homework sometime anyway. Quite fascinating, shouldn't have put it off so long.

So Sentryman, what did Blum say about it? I read Rogue State, pretty good as I recall.

To answer your OP more specifically

what's the full story?

The full story will pretty much never be known, and at this time we have only a partial story. There's some confusion or room for discussion over what was and wasn't part of the "Gladio" network, or how to define it, what was ordered by whom or done independently, etc... But enough is known to cause serious concern and interest in more people than it has so far.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

well, it was in killing hope AFAIK. And he was saying about its role in terrorism across Western Europe.

I know some details (nato prepping fascists for ww3, they begin going crazy later. causes a massive scandal), but what actually happened?

i know terrorstorm did a bit on gladio regarding historical false flags.

 

[Caustic Logic]

well, it was in killing hope AFAIK. And he was saying about its role in terrorism across Western Europe.

I know some details (nato prepping fascists for ww3, they begin going crazy later. causes a massive scandal), but what actually happened?

i know terrorstorm did a bit on gladio regarding historical false flags.

Although it is a genuine issue, AJ won't cover it unless he does so wrong and there is plenty of room for woo here. As far as Blum, I dunno. The network was involved with terrorist actions across Europe, tho the details o feach incident can get murky as far as who was with who or following whose orders. So "what actually happened' is hard to say, and I only know a little so far.

First, Gladio is the name only of the Italian stay-behind army, though often used for the whole system. The whole system has no name I know of. Gladio was the first to be fully revealed and apparently the most violent. Probably the most violent event from the network was in Italy, the Bologna massacre of 1980, which injured 200 and killed IIRC 85.

Hardly anything is proven, and supporters still claim the networks only had permission to wait So AFAIK all charges of terrorism are still accusations, but good ones. The 1990 revelations clicked light bulbs on across the continent about previous mysteries. Italy's parliament was looking into the strange right-wing violence and plotting through the 1970s and 80s, and why the terrorists could never seem to be caught. Judge Casson at this time found the paperwork on Gladio, handed it over to to the committee and it shifted the whole process. Within days they had pressured the PM to stop covering up and tell the world, which he did and the rest is history...

 

[Caustic Logic]

That is the current consensus view. They went nuts and when they did NATO cut them off.

A bump - can Travis or anyone offer any links or anything regarding this consensus view? I'm still investigating, have a decent grasp of generalities of the more paranoid claims, and ready for the debunks.

--Not Directly NATO-related but in a NATO country, supported by CIA, supporting Gladio, and only shut down by the locals---
For anyone who's curious, I found one interesting angle is "Aginter Press," established 1966 in Salazar's Portugal. Involved names to Google include Frenchman Yves Guerin Serac, Italian Stefano Delle Chiaie, and American Jay Sablonsky. They didn't print stuff, but were more an "ideas" outfit than hands-on in violence. Judge Salvini in Ganser explains they offered encouragement, links, ideas, etc. to right-wing groups they found effective, working closely with CIA and MI6 on one end and on the other, a wide spectrum of shadiness [Ganser 115].

For example, evidence has surfaced showing Aginter ops trained Italian Avanguardia Nazionale members in bomb-making in Rome, 1967-68. [Ganser 120] The same group was responsible for the Piazza Fontana bombing and the introduction of "strategy of tension" in December 1969.Exact links are hard to pin down, since...

Shut down after the 1974 revolution that overthrew Salazar, Aginter first organized a counter-strike from offshore Islands [Ganser 121], but then fled to Spain and went to work for Franco, and in South America. Most Aginter files in the government disappeared, leaving the whole thing under-investigated, but one copy of an alleged Aginter document reads in part:

"Our belief is that the first phase of political activity ought to be to create the conditions favouring the installation of chaos in all of the regime's structures. .. In our view the first move we should make is to destroy the structure of the democratic state under the cover of Communist and pro-Chinese activities. .. Moreover, we have people who have infiltrated these groups and obviously we will have to tailor our actions to the ethos of the milieu — propaganda and action of a sort which will seem to have emanated from our Communist adversaries. .. [These operations] will create a feeling of hostility towards those who threaten the peace of each and every nation. [i.e. Communists]"

From Wikipedia, from elsewhere, first published by "Lobster" in 1989, so ???

 

[Caustic Logic]

http://www.php.isn.ethz.ch/collections/coll_gladio/chronology.cfm?navinfo=15301

This is a timeline of events that are or might be involved, made by Ganser, published here by the Parallel History Project on Cooperative Security (PHP), supported by International Relations and Security Network (ISN). ISN is, in turn, part of the Zurich-based Center for Security Studies, at which Dr. Ganser is a senior researcher.

What does anyone else say about the timeline? Why does a professional document like this still have typos? Is it too inclusive? Are all these events clearly tied to the "Gladio" network? My hunch is this is expansive and not 100% correct, chaff with the wheat.

And how about the ISN/PHP? Can anyone find detailed info about this group - fly by night or reputable? Seriously scholarly Swiss or the Alps just alive with the sound of woo-sic?

Do any European members in particular have any new thoughts?

 

[Caustic Logic]

better second time

 

[Caustic Logic]

I checked the archives and didn't see any other threads where Gladio was seriously discussed, so I guess this will keep being the one

Do any European members in particular have any new thoughts?

In particular, Eddie Dane - I re-read an older thread about P2, you tied Gladio in, which halped get me interested - there you posted:

When Gladio was dismantled, some of it's members couldn't say goodbye to the cloak and dagger lifestyle and got into crime. I remember they tried to blackmail a big food company by poisoning products in supermarkets and demanding money.

Dutch secret service nabbed these geniuses at the money pick up.
So. Upstanding citizens and spy masters rolled into one.

One of the Gladio weapons caches was buried in a park within walking distance from my house.
Dutch organised crime apparently got their hands on this hardware in what is the biggest known weapons theft in Dutch history.

Any more details? That's interesting stuff. I haven't studied the Netherlands situation closely yet, but skimming it seems to have been relatively mellow - nothing from the I&O except anti-commie propaganda.

From the basic gist I've gotten so far of the patterns involved, I made a graphic to help show the scope of this all.
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/chainsawmoth/127-911/Stay_Behinds_colormap.jpg

 

[Caustic Logic]

Gaaah! Dutch ... Dane ... I was a little drunk last night. I'm pretending that's why no on is responding, and it's fixed now, so...

Anyone here from Belgium that's aware of the Nivelles Gang / Brabant Massacres? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nivelles_gang

 

[Eddie Dane]

I checked the archives and didn't see any other threads where Gladio was seriously discussed, so I guess this will keep being the one



In particular, Eddie Dane - I re-read an older thread about P2, you tied Gladio in, which halped get me interested - there you posted:


Any more details? That's interesting stuff. I haven't studied the Netherlands situation closely yet, but skimming it seems to have been relatively mellow - nothing from the I&O except anti-commie propaganda.

From the basic gist I've gotten so far of the patterns involved, I made a graphic to help show the scope of this all.
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/chainsawmoth/127-911/Stay_Behinds_colormap.jpg

I've looked a round a little, but the best stuff I can find is in Dutch.
Here's the Wiki article, it's a bit shallow:

The Netherlands

A large arms cache was discovered in 1983 near the village Velp. In 1990 the government by means of then-prime-minister Ruud Lubbers was forced to confirm that the arms were related to planning for unorthodox warfare. He insisted that the Dutch organisation was, contrary to the operations in other European countries, totally independent from NATO command, and during wartime occupation would be commanded by the Dutch government in exile. The operating bureaus of the organisation would also move to safety in England or the USA at the first sign of trouble.

In his television show of 22 April 2007 Dutch crime journalist Peter R. De Vries revealed that weapons had been illegally supplied to Gladio well after the network was supposed to have been disbanded.[28]

A Dutch investigative television program revealed on September 9, 2007, that an arms cache that belonged to Gladio was ransacked in the 1980s. The cache was located in a forest near Scheveningen. Some of stolen weapons later turned up, including hand grenades and machine guns, when police officials arrested criminals Sam Klepper and John Mieremet in 1991. The Dutch military intelligence agency, MIVD, feared at that time that the disclosure of the Gladio history of these weapons was politically explosive.[62][63]

I'll dig a bit and will post if I find something worthwhile.

 

[Brainster]

One thing that I'm not seeing on this thread is a discussion of what Gladio really was, which is a secret plan to create an underground resistance in the event of a Warsaw Pact (Soviet Bloc) invasion of Western Europe. Given the fact that the Germans had overrun France in 1940, it would not have seemed at the time a terribly remote possibility. Having large caches of armaments is actually proper planning.

Now you can argue that right-wing elements in various intelligence agencies then misused those arms to battle against internal communist threats, which was not the purpose, but this is hardly news, or something that NATO or the US supported.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Eddie - sorry I got double confused - so you're not from Denmark, says right there... okay. whew. Thanks for the tidbits there I'm sure I've read but didn't sink in. That the stay-behind system there was different is quite possible, it did vary a lot from place to place.

I was wondering about the arms cache foound near where you live - did you see it, or have any other unique proximity-based observations only you could share?

Brainster: Intelligent comments - indeed they were officially intended only to wait, but it's been alleged, and there's evidence, that they became quite actvive in the meantime. the space between the stated purpose and the alleged outcomes is the area of mystery here. I don't have the answers, which is the point of a discussion. However, we have distrurbing patterns that raise questions:

"Gladio" arsenals repeatedly wound up supplying terrorist attacks, especially in Italy. These were blamed on the left by a well-defined overt strategy of the right, a process assisted by the Italian gov repeatedly for years, helping the criminals escape and cracking down on the Left, with no protest I've seen from Washington. In Greece and Turkey the stay--behind networks were fully involved in coup d'etats and in the ruling of the countries afterwards. In at least Greece's case, their secret services were very closely linked to the CIA. Look at a map of Soviet controlled Europe and you can see why focusing on Greece and Turkey made sense.

There are some question about the relative importance here of state forces, NATO, and other foreign like CIA and MI6. But all in all, a smart reputable guy named Dr, John Prados feels:
“[N]etworks created to be quiescent became activists in political causes as a rule and not an exception [...] At a minimum Dr Ganser's record shows that capabilities created for straightforward purposes as part of the Cold War ultimately turned to more sinister ends."

 

[Brainster]

Brainster: Intelligent comments - indeed they were officially intended only to wait, but it's been alleged, and there's evidence, that they became quite actvive in the meantime. the space between the stated purpose and the alleged outcomes is the area of mystery here. I don't have the answers, which is the point of a discussion. However, we have distrurbing patterns that raise questions:

"Gladio" arsenals repeatedly wound up supplying terrorist attacks, especially in Italy. These were blamed on the left by a well-defined overt strategy of the right, a process assisted by the Italian gov repeatedly for years, helping the criminals escape and cracking down on the Left, with no protest I've seen from Washington. In Greece and Turkey the stay--behind networks were fully involved in coup d'etats and in the ruling of the countries afterwards. In at least Greece's case, their secret services were very closely linked to the CIA. Look at a map of Soviet controlled Europe and you can see why focusing on Greece and Turkey made sense.

There are some question about the relative importance here of state forces, NATO, and other foreign like CIA and MI6. But all in all, a smart reputable guy named Dr, John Prados feels:
“[N]etworks created to be quiescent became activists in political causes as a rule and not an exception [...] At a minimum Dr Ganser's record shows that capabilities created for straightforward purposes as part of the Cold War ultimately turned to more sinister ends."

Whom do you make alliances with in the aftermath of WWII if your concern is the Soviets? It's gotta be committed right-wingers in Europe, and remember the man running the US side was Harry Truman. And of course committed right-wingers in Europe saw what was to them the adoption of socialism by ballot, rather than by revolution as had previously been the case.

I'm not forgiving what excesses occurred, what I am saying is that the initial plan made sense if you thought there might be an imminent Soviet invasion. Since there wasn't, there was an inevitable temptation on the part of the locals to use the weapons as political arms. And that is what the real issue is, not the initial decision on the part of the US and NATO.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Thanks brainster for helping end the annoying silence, with a respectable stance that shows a decent grasp.

Whom do you make alliances with in the aftermath of WWII if your concern is the Soviets?

Me, not Nazis and Fascists - okay a token few, as a reminder, otherwise I'd go for a combo of many moderate conservatives, Nationalists of diff. stripes, select local Soc and Communists, and let Stalin do the rest for keeping them outta the Soviet camp.
Short asnwer: they ain't me and they decided strong conservative to Fascist.

It's gotta be committed right-wingers in Europe, and remember the man running the US side was Harry Truman. And of course committed right-wingers in Europe saw what was to them the adoption of socialism by ballot, rather than by revolution as had previously been the case.

Good summation. I'm seeing it as they took their mission more metaphorically. They were to be activated by either physical Soviet invasion OR mental invasion, via democracy, of Leftist (read to some Soviet) ideals. Aldo Morro is a great example (second time I've felt bad for someone named Aldo), or George Pampandreous, etc... And of course they went beyond tight pinprick control of key leadership spots and into management of the whole psycho-political climate. This might be where they went too far, and did start crumbling and getting exposed after this...

I'm not forgiving what excesses occurred, what I am saying is that the initial plan made sense if you thought there might be an imminent Soviet invasion. Since there wasn't, there was an inevitable temptation on the part of the locals to use the weapons as political arms. And that is what the real issue is, not the initial decision on the part of the US and NATO.

The initial decision they now admit to, forming stay-behind army networs, is okay IMO and prudent. The other stuff was apparently done as you say by local decision, but proved useful, if ultimately damaging, and seems to have been allowed and maybe encouraged by Washington. This isn't a situation where you set it up and walk away with no more contact - the system was managed with yearly meetings of the Allied Clandestine Committee, and this stuff went on here and there for over four decades without being cancelled.

I'm left wondering if what happened WASN'T actually one of the original intents.

 

[Caustic Logic]

But, as I meant to wrap-up, this was the Cold War after all and the Warsaw Pact was surely doing the same or worse in its holdings.

 

[Eddie Dane]

I was wondering about the arms cache foound near where you live - did you see it, or have any other unique proximity-based observations only you could share?

Unfortunately no.

I live near a wooded area where one of the weapons caches was apparently located.

The only reason I mentioned it, is because it always feels weird when you suddenly get close to a historical event. Even in a minor way.

Equally bizarre factoid: Apparently the Red Army Fraction held Hans Martin Schleyer just around the corner from where I live.

I've looked around, but all I can find is somewhat sensationalist news articles in Dutch.

The weapons cache was stolen by two notorious Dutch criminals, Sam Klepper and John Mieremet. Both have been liquidated since, but I wouldn't draw any CT conclusions from that.
They were utterly ruthless drug dealers who fought themselves to the top of the food chain by having their competition killed. In the early eighties they went a bit too far with that and every remaining competitor started taking out contracts on them.
Now fearing for their life, they thought it safer to spend a little time under the protection of the Dutch authorities. This lead to the next bizarre turn of events where they dug up the Gladio weapons, called the police on themselves ans started driving around the country until they got arrested.

God only knows how they knew about the weapons cache. Personally I think that people who get a kick out of joining a stay-behind resistance organisation have roughly the same personality type as someone who would find it exciting to brush up against organised crime. Romantic adrenaline junkies and all that. So my guess is that somebody talked a bit too much over a drink and a line of coke.

 

[Eddie Dane]

One thing that I'm not seeing on this thread is a discussion of what Gladio really was, which is a secret plan to create an underground resistance in the event of a Warsaw Pact (Soviet Bloc) invasion of Western Europe. Given the fact that the Germans had overrun France in 1940, it would not have seemed at the time a terribly remote possibility. Having large caches of armaments is actually proper planning.

Now you can argue that right-wing elements in various intelligence agencies then misused those arms to battle against internal communist threats, which was not the purpose, but this is hardly news, or something that NATO or the US supported.

You are absolutely right. Almost everything we are discussing here are side issues.

It is very interesting what kind of unintended consequences setting up such an organisation can have.

I once read that the Sicilian Mafia was started by the land owners to intimidate the peasants. Talk about blowback!

 

[Caustic Logic]

Unfortunately no.

I live near a wooded area where one of the weapons caches was apparently located.

The only reason I mentioned it, is because it always feels weird when you suddenly get close to a historical event. Even in a minor way.

Equally bizarre factoid: Apparently the Red Army Fraction held Hans Martin Schleyer just around the corner from where I live.

Yeah, nothing weird like that ever happens around here, and I don't travel much, but when I went to New York it was like that, taking the Path up through Ground Zero - I could almost fee it, a weird heavy silence filling the pit and the space right above it. Spooky.

I've looked around, but all I can find is somewhat sensationalist news articles in Dutch.

The weapons cache was stolen by two notorious Dutch criminals, Sam Klepper and John Mieremet. Both have been liquidated since, but I wouldn't draw any CT conclusions from that.
They were utterly ruthless drug dealers who fought themselves to the top of the food chain by having their competition killed. In the early eighties they went a bit too far with that and every remaining competitor started taking out contracts on them.
Now fearing for their life, they thought it safer to spend a little time under the protection of the Dutch authorities. This lead to the next bizarre turn of events where they dug up the Gladio weapons, called the police on themselves ans started driving around the country until they got arrested.

Well that's an interesting story I didn't see around yet. When you say called the police on themselves... never mind, I'll just read up on this one.

God only knows how they knew about the weapons cache. Personally I think that people who get a kick out of joining a stay-behind resistance organisation have roughly the same personality type as someone who would find it exciting to brush up against organised crime. Romantic adrenaline junkies and all that. So my guess is that somebody talked a bit too much over a drink and a line of coke.

I think you're right about the type of craziness we'd see here. Unstable people with guns - take Abdullah Catli, longtime leader of the Grey Wolves, a subset of the Turkish Gladio equivalent Counter-Guerilla. Catli was friend, co-conspirator and jail-breaker for Mehmet Ali Agca, another Turk who famously shot the pope in 1981. Catli was also wanted on charges of murder and drug trafficking, but shielded by higher ups til he died in a car crash in the mountains near Sursuluk - a crash that revealed the deep state, having together people who apparently weren't supposed to be - a deputy chief of the Istanbul police killed and injuring a Kurdish MP who led a powerful clan, and was friendly with Ankara in their brutal war against the Kurdish PKK. The news reported on the crash and the names and a huge scandal ensued. I can imagine these guys coked up or what and got going too crazy with the driver, but anyway, a seam was exposed in this unusual event. Statistically, a lot of other similar car trips that didn't crash probably went unreported.

 

[Klimax]

But, as I meant to wrap-up, this was the Cold War after all and the Warsaw Pact was surely doing the same or worse in its holdings.

Well,speaking only for former Czechoslovakia,we had only few military events.(Rest of them was done by KGB-like organisation)
First was corruption,which allowed weapons to be carried out of armory.(?Machineguns as well!)

Second was 1968-invasion to "save" communism.

And last altough not directly affecting citizens was training terrorists.(especially arabs/muslims) Sadly no known source for this.(in english for sure)