Israel bans use of word "Nakba" in textbooks

[Marc39]

i posted a link to a video, where an old Israeli woman told how it went on when they established Israel. very touching story. But in your twisted world, the lady was just an anti israeli hamas propagandist i guess.

but hey, see it as what ever you want it to be.

And, I responded to that video, sourced from an ideologically driven anti-Israel propaganda outlet, with statements from Arabs about how Arab leaders were complicit in the so-called nakba. Need I re-post them?

 

[Marc39]

In the interests of sorting all this out, I have unilaterally decided to grant Marc39 posting privilages in return for infomation relevant to our inquiries. Let us see if he can keep his end of this posts-for-data agreement.

This is a thread centering on the so-called nakba. I'm simply trying to
elicit--apparently, with no success--specific examples of how Israel has been a so-called nakba. Are you up to the task?

 

[DC]

And, I responded to that video, sourced from an ideologically driven anti-Israel propaganda outlet, with statements from Arabs about how Arab leaders were complicit in the so-called nakba. Need I re-post them?

and your sources are only fact driven, no political spin to find in it
we have so much to learn about how history really was. what would we do without our Marc.

 

[FireGarden]

This is a thread centering on the so-called nakba. I'm simply trying to
elicit--apparently, with no success--specific examples of how Israel has been a so-called nakba. Are you up to the task?

Are you saying that you wouldn't consider being forced from your home a catastrophe?

Try reading that interview with Morris in Haaretz and swap all the references to Arab/Jew. Then maybe you will be capable of some empathy.

 

[Marc39]

Do you find the claim credible? Not simply the claim that Arab Jews were forced to leave behind property -- I agree that happened. But the amount of property: 300 billion dollars worth in today's money.

I'm in no position to make such an assessment, not having had the opportunity to see the relevant documents in the possession of WOJAC.

I certainly have argued the facts.

Ineffectually so, given Morris states in his book, and elsewhere, there was never an Israeli governmental policy of Arab transfer.

Historians from all over the political spectrum -- from Benny Morris to Ilan Pappe -- agree that Arabs were forced out by the Israeli government.

I've already instructed you that Pappe is not a credible source. Why do you persist in trying to use him as such? I've also pointed out to you that Morris states in his book dedicated the the '48 War there was never a gov't policy for expulsion. This is like deja vu all over again.

You said I misrepresented Morris. I have shown that Morris does indeed agree that Arabs were forced out by the Israeli government.

Incorrect. Morris shows Arabs were forced out for tactical military purposes, which is common in any armed conflict. How many Iraqis have been uprooted in the war by the military? There was no Israeli government policy of mass expulsion of Arabs. Read Morris's book for his own words.

You want to move the goal posts to finding official Israeli government policy? Fine, move those posts. The acts of the Israeli government remain the same. If you are going to blame "bad apples" then explain the orders signed by Moshe Carmel and Yitzhak Rabin. Or do you deny such orders were given?

There is no movement of any imaginary goal posts. You are completely tangled up in your own web of confused thought processes. Morris states flatly in his book that there was no Israeli gov't policy of Arab expulsion. Furthermore, no other historian has discovered such an implemented plan.

 

[Marc39]

Are you saying that you wouldn't consider being forced from your home a catastrophe?

How does this apply to the so-called nakba?

Try reading that interview with Morris in Haaretz and swap all the references to Arab/Jew. Then maybe you will be capable of some empathy.

Try reading Morris's actual book on the '48 War. It's far more meaningful than a newspaper article about Morris.

 

[Marc39]

and your sources are only fact driven, no political spin to find in it
we have so much to learn about how history really was. what would we do without our Marc.

The statements were made by Arab journalists published in Arab newspapers. I provided the exact dates of publication. I have several more such statements of Arabs explaining, correctly so, how Arabs, themselves, were the cause of the nakba. And, still are.

 

[DC]

The statements were made by Arab journalists published in Arab newspapers. I provided the exact dates of publication. I have several more such statements of Arabs explaining, correctly so, how Arabs, themselves, were the cause of the nakba. And, still are.

So you agree that there was a nakba?

 

[Marc39]

So you agree that there was a nakba?

Define this alleged nakba?

 

[DC]

Define this alleged nakba?

define what you ment with

I have several more such statements of Arabs explaining, correctly so, how Arabs, themselves, were the cause of the nakba. And, still are.

catastrophe / disaster ?

 

[bigjelmapro]

Are you equating the Nakba with The Protocols and Mein Kampf?

Not equating. I do, however, find that the association with Israel as some sort of disaster is an issue that inches further and further away from an actual resolution to this conflict. And let's all be honest here, the literature associated with the naqba does point fingers solely at Israel and none at the Arab leadership and the resultant wars that led to this naqba. Sure, there has been displacement, predominantly internal displacement, of groups of people which includes Arabs of course, through the wars this region has endured. However, focusing simply on one group of people being displaced and pointing figures at one culprit when a multitude of culprits were involved in the displacement of all groups of people worsens are resolution.

 

[Marc39]

catastrophe / disaster ?

That's what the word means in Arabic. More to the point, define the ways in which Israel has been a catastrophe/disaster for Arabs.

 

[Marc39]

Not equating. I do, however, find that the association with Israel as some sort of disaster is an issue that inches further and further away from an actual resolution to this conflict. And let's all be honest here, the literature associated with the naqba does point fingers solely at Israel and none at the Arab leadership and the resultant wars that led to this naqba. Sure, there has been displacement, predominantly internal displacement, of groups of people which includes Arabs of course, through the wars this region has endured. However, focusing simply on one group of people being displaced and pointing figures at one culprit when a multitude of culprits were involved in the displacement of all groups of people worsens are resolution.

Well stated, except, how is Israel a "culprit" in the matter?

 

[DC]

That's what the word means in Arabic. More to the point, define the ways in which Israel has been a catastrophe/disaster for Arabs.

well it ment to some people they are no longer able to live where they used to live and wanted to live. and to them that was do to the creation of Israel.

 

[Marc39]

well it ment to some people they are no longer able to live where they used to live and wanted to live. and to them that was do to the creation of Israel.

How are people no longer able to live where they used to live and wanted to live because of Israeli statehood?

 

[FireGarden]

I've already instructed you that Pappe is not a credible source.

Snort!

Incorrect. Morris shows Arabs were forced out for tactical military purposes, which is common in any armed conflict.

Forced out by whom? Morris lays the blame at the door of Ben-Gurion -- just as I claimed he did.

Morris states flatly in his book that there was no Israeli gov't policy of Arab expulsion.

I think I'll go by Morris' words in Haaretz, rather than yours. The expulsion was ordered by the Israeli government. If you can twist that into being "there was no Israeli gov't policy of Arab expulsion," then twist away.

How does this apply to the so-called nakba?

It applies because people were forced from their homes. Others were massacred. Such events are a catastrophe -- at least for those involved and those capable of empathy.

Try reading Morris's actual book on the '48 War. It's far more meaningful than a newspaper article about Morris.

This shows the depths of your ignorance. The Haaretz article I linked isn't about Morris. It's an interview with Morris.

Did you not wonder why some paragraphs were questions and printed in italics? And then the paragraphs between read like answers?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=380986&contrassID=2

 

[DC]

How are people no longer able to live where they used to live and wanted to live because of Israeli statehood?

they fled because of appeals by Arab leaders and also they fled from the terror of extremist groups like Irgun, Ezel and Stern

 

[Marc39]

they fled because of appeals by Arab leaders and also they fled from the terror of extremist groups like Irgun, Ezel and Stern

You're inching closer to the crux of the matter. Arabs fled because of a death-war the Arabs started with the full intent of "saturating the sand with blood", to borrow from Arab rhetoric and murdering every last Jew. So, Arab displacement was completely self-inflicted. Now, how, again, is Israel complicit in the nakba/catastrophe?

 

[DC]

You're inching closer to the crux of the matter. Arabs fled because of a death-war the Arabs started with the full intent of "saturating the sand with blood", to borrow from Arab rhetoric and murdering every last Jew. So, Arab displacement was completely self-inflicted. Now, how, again, is Israel complicit in the nakba/catastrophe?

I wonder why you skipped the part about Irgun, Ezel and Stern.
your view in the matter is totaly onesided. but the reality is not that onesided.

 

[Marc39]

Forced out by whom? Morris lays the blame at the door of Ben-Gurion -- just as I claimed he did.

Laying the blame without any historical evidence, other than a sense of an "atmosphere" of expulsions. As if, Ben-Gurion gave orders through mental telepathy. Morris also famously, or, more accurately, infamously, wrongly claimed Ben-Gurion told his son, Amos, that Aabs had to be expelled. Ephraim Karsh proved Ben-Gurion said the complete opposite--that Arabs could not be expelled--forcing Morris to recant his alleged findings. So, Morris is not infallible and should be read with a grain of salt.

I think I'll go by Morris' words in Haaretz, rather than yours. The expulsion was ordered by the Israeli government. If you can twist that into being "there was no Israeli gov't policy of Arab expulsion," then twist away.

I am suggesting you go with Morris's words in Haaretz, in which he states there was no official Israeli gov't policy of Arab expulsion. I am also suggesting you go with Morris's words in his book on the '48 War. Morris disputes your allegations of transfer.

It applies because people were forced from their homes. Others were massacred. Such events are a catastrophe -- at least for those involved and those capable of empathy.

And, as Morris plainly points out, there were massacres committed by Arabs and several hundreds of thousands of Jews expelled from their homes in Arab countries. But, in the end, Israel did not start the war and does not bear the responsibilities of the inevitable consequences of war.

This shows the depths of your ignorance. The Haaretz article I linked isn't about Morris. It's an interview with Morris.

More testiness? I read the "ground-breaking" interview and am nonplussed. Morris's book is highly recommended for learning more about the absence of an Israeli policy of transfer.