Nightline Debate: Does Satan Exist?

[Elizabeth I]

God has promised to forgive us our sins when we ask him too.

"When we ask Him too"? Who else do we have to ask?

Okay Mr critical thinker,

Infantile response - why didn't you just say, "OK, Poopyhead"?

What about all the prophesies fullfilled in scripture?

Aren't any.

What about all the archeological evidence?

Isn't any.

What about all the scientific proof?

Isn't any.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Oh, yeah, by the way, KK. How'd you like to answer this one? I've asked it of you several times.

Some Jews accept Jesus as their Messiah, but we are still in the time of gentiles being saved so unfortunately it does seem many Jews are still blind to the truth about Jesus. As I understand it more Jews will come to faith in Christ through the great tribulation which is surely getting closer each day.

...and here we are back again. So is God a liar? Because he made a covenant with the Jews, but you seem to be saying that he broke that covenant when he sent Jesus to earth. So then God lied to the Jews when he made that covenant, and if God is a liar, how can you trust anything he says?

Or, if God first made the covenant with the Jews, then changed his mind when he sent Jesus, how do you know that he won't change his mind again someday and you'll find yourself out in the cold? What if he says, "Oops, I was wrong, it is the Jews after all"? Or, "Haha, guess what, I really am Allah"?

If he changed his mind once, he could do it again, any day now.

I have asked you these questions before, in several other threads, and you have always ignored them. What is your answer? Is God a liar, or will he just change his mind on you?

 

[kurious_kathy]

Wikipedia does go along with what you have written here in your post concerning the distinction. It says that the dead are in hades up until the judgment, them get tossed into gehenna.
Here is a quote from Wikipedia on gehenna:
"Gehenna is cited in the New Testament and in early Christian writing to represent the final place where the wicked will be punished or destroyed after resurrection." It seems to allow a difference of opinion between the damned being destroyed, or being further punished. I go with the former and think the latter is difficult to support for a couple of reasons.
I think Jesus was speaking metaphoricaly about undying worms. I doubt that literal worms are going to be living in a fire.
It also seems inconsistent with what we would sense as being justice. An eternal suffering for everyone may be unfair if someone who lived a decent life gets the same punishment as a serial killer.
God wiping away all tears would not be an accurate statement if there were people living inside a fire. Also it would be difficult for the people not in the fire to be especially happy knowing their unsaved loved ones were over the hill being cooked.
I think God puts a final end to all evil, otherwise what is the purpose of it all. God wants to make a total restoration of the world to where it should have been if there had not been the introduction of sin. That would not include a hell parked somewhere on the planet.
You probably represent the majority opinion among Christians so I do not want to be harsh in my criticism. I have a different opinion but I do not think it is a result of lack of faith but how I was taught in my particular church.

What about the issue being that we are eternal beings meant to have fellowship with God? Our souls were meant to go on for eternity, one place or the other. Jesus did not die in vain my friend, and if people have no fear of God or hell being real why would they even consider they are sinners who need to repent? Your view makes no sense to Christianity what so ever. Christians who stray from the teachings on hell are a BIG concern to me. Are you sure your not Emergent? These guys don't believe in hell either so you appear to be just like them to me.

You cannot just spiritualize everthing in scripture either as that seems to be where sometimes scripture gets twisted and misunderstood too often. Please remember one of Satans favorite games is twisting the Word!

 

[six7s]

What about the issue being that we are eternal beings meant to have fellowship with God?

What about the idea that, in a discussion, you answer relevant questions directed to you before asking inane questions of others?

 

[Hokulele]

Woo fight!

(Not directed at you, six7s.)

 

[proudnonbbeliever]

Kurious Kathy,

do you have any evidence supporting your claim that humans have souls?

 

[Ethnikos]

1) What about the issue being that we are eternal beings meant to have 2) fellowship with God? 3) Our souls were meant to go on for eternity, one place or the other. 4) Jesus did not die in vain my friend, and if people have no fear of God or 5) hell being real why would they even consider they are sinners who need to repent? 6) Your view makes no sense to Christianity what so ever. 7) Christians who stray from the teachings on hell are a BIG concern to me. 8) Are you sure your not Emergent? 9) These guys don't believe in hell either so you appear to be just like them to me. 10)

11) You cannot just spiritualize everthing in scripture either as that seems to be where sometimes scripture gets twisted and misunderstood too often. Please remember one of Satans favorite games is twisting the Word!

1) Being created automatically negates being eternal, just by definition.
2) Burning in Hell=Quality time with God?
3) Souls were created by the combination of the dust of the Earth with the life force spirit from God. They were meant to remain that way and no provision was made for the soul to exist in any other state than the one it was created in.
4) Jesus died for the opportunity of everyone to be able to live in a Kingdom of God, since the kingdom of Satan is ending soon. The desire for life should be sufficient motivation to reach out to Jesus to accept his gift.
5) My theory about hell is that things were so bad in the Dark Ages that the old Greek idea of Hades may have looked like an improvement over a lot of people's current lives, so the instructors in religion to the people felt they had to step up the unpleasant aspects of hell.
6) "The gates of hell will not prevail against it", "it" meaning the church. This would be, in one aspect of the saying, the fact that the death of individuals of the church is not their ultimate end, since Jesus had conquered death by being raised from the dead. The other aspect of the saying has to do with the concept that the death of individuals by the forces of evil will not abolish the church, as it will always exist, even if it is but a remnant of its former self.
7) Like I said in my earlier post, having a difference of opinion is not always an indication that someone has fallen from the faith, it just may be that their original faith always was of that opinion. Being different does not always make someone automatically wrong. There is a lot of variation between the doctrines of different denominations. The fact that exists does not make everyone wrong by default. If that was true, your denomination would be wrong too, just by the fact that you exist.
8) I looked up Emergent in Wikipedia and it seems to be some sort of "post-modernist" phenomenon that I am sure I am not part of.
9) I believe in hell, just that it says it is destroyed.
10) Give me a link to an example and I will examine it.
11) I think the parables of Jesus were meant to be spiritualized. I hope you do not think you should cut off your hand and pluck out your eye, literally.

 

[six7s]

1) What about the issue being that we are eternal beings meant to have 2) fellowship with God? 3) Our souls were meant to go on for eternity, one place or the other. 4) Jesus did not die in vain my friend, and if people have no fear of God or 5) hell being real why would they even consider they are sinners who need to repent? 6) Your view makes no sense to Christianity what so ever. 7) Christians who stray from the teachings on hell are a BIG concern to me. 8) Are you sure your not Emergent? 9) These guys don't believe in hell either so you appear to be just like them to me. 10)

11) You cannot just spiritualize everthing in scripture either as that seems to be where sometimes scripture gets twisted and misunderstood too often. Please remember one of Satans favorite games is twisting the Word!

1) Being created automatically negates being eternal, just by definition.
2) Burning in Hell=Quality time with God?
3) Souls were created by the combination of the dust of the Earth with the life force spirit from God. They were meant to remain that way and no provision was made for the soul to exist in any other state than the one it was created in.
4) Jesus died for the opportunity of everyone to be able to live in a Kingdom of God, since the kingdom of Satan is ending soon. The desire for life should be sufficient motivation to reach out to Jesus to accept his gift.
5) My theory about hell is that things were so bad in the Dark Ages that the old Greek idea of Hades may have looked like an improvement over a lot of people's current lives, so the instructors in religion to the people felt they had to step up the unpleasant aspects of hell.
6) "The gates of hell will not prevail against it", "it" meaning the church. This would be, in one aspect of the saying, the fact that the death of individuals of the church is not their ultimate end, since Jesus had conquered death by being raised from the dead. The other aspect of the saying has to do with the concept that the death of individuals by the forces of evil will not abolish the church, as it will always exist, even if it is but a remnant of its former self.
7) Like I said in my earlier post, having a difference of opinion is not always an indication that someone has fallen from the faith, it just may be that their original faith always was of that opinion. Being different does not always make someone automatically wrong. There is a lot of variation between the doctrines of different denominations. The fact that exists does not make everyone wrong by default. If that was true, your denomination would be wrong too, just by the fact that you exist.
8) I looked up Emergent in Wikipedia and it seems to be some sort of "post-modernist" phenomenon that I am sure I am not part of.
9) I believe in hell, just that it says it is destroyed.
10) Give me a link to an example and I will examine it.
11) I think the parables of Jesus were meant to be spiritualized. I hope you do not think you should cut off your hand and pluck out your eye, literally.

End of round one

Peanuts!

Hot Dogs!

Popcorn!

Beer!

Get 'em in folks! This one's gonna go the full 15!

 

[Ethnikos]

Oh, yeah, by the way, KK. How'd you like to answer this one? I've asked it of you several times.

he made a covenant with the Jews, but you seem to be saying that he broke that covenant when he sent Jesus to earth.

Paul, as in the Apostle Paul in the New Testament, should have some sort of answer.
Jesus worked to carry out the promise to Abraham. After all it was most likely the pre-incarnate Jesus who transmitted the word of God to Abraham, in the first place, as the representative of God. Jesus did say that before Abraham, he was.
Jesus was the seed of Abraham and Jesus made a great nation that is worldwide, by allowing all to be adopted. Paul says grafted onto the tree.
So Jesus could be likened to a second Abraham, just like in Hebrews where it is said Jesus is a priest of the order of Melchizedek. That was the King of Salem who Abraham paid tithes to. Jesus is our high priest and is our advocate before God, and he can only be that because we become his nation, which is the extended version of Abraham's.
I am all for gentiles being saved. That's my posting name, which is the word used in the Greek New Testament for gentile and do not ever imagine myself being a literal Jew. Paul goes against normal human understanding by saying, "there is no longer a distinction between Jew and gentile." To me, that kind of disqualifies the notion of a dispensation of the gentiles.

 

[Ethnikos]

End of round one
This one's gonna go the full 15!

I do not want to beat up Kathy.
I realize she had a vision of Hell and that it was something similar to what she believes it would be like. I do not want to dispel her belief that her vision was accurate. But unless her vision lasted eternally, there is no way to tell how long exactly one would remain in this state of having flames wrapped around your body, or whatever the image is.
My explanation of the final judgement and destruction of the wicked allows for a certain duration of painful experience to be felt, according to the severity of pain that a person had inflicted on others during their lifetime.
Kathy's vision, I would hope, is a little hypothetical, as in she may have had a glimpse at how someone who was really bad would feel when they get theirs. This may have lasted for some time. So, she can keep her vision and I am not knocking it. Just this horrific scene of judgement would be enough for me, even without the actual burning part, to not want to be involved in it. I do not feel at all like wanting to make it worse than it already is.

 

[Flo]

I do not want to beat up Kathy.

At least not in front of all those atheists who are having a ball seeing two peddlers of woo trying to outpreach one another ... But you sure both would love to convince each other of the superiority of your personnal delusions.

 

[six7s]

I do not want to beat up Kathy

You can't... against her ducking and weaving, even Muhammad would sting like a butterfly and float like a brick

 

[Nonpareil]

What about the issue being that we are eternal beings meant to have fellowship with God? Our souls were meant to go on for eternity, one place or the other.

a) Prove that we have souls (I believe it, but I can't support the belief, and neither can you)
b) Prove that Heaven and Hell exist
c) Prove that the soul goes on for eternity (see a.)
Jesus did not die in vain my friend No. He didn't die at all. a) he didn't exist and b) he came back, and KNEW he'd come back. It was an empty gesture., and if people have no fear of God or hell being real why would they even consider they are sinners who need to repent?

If they don't believe in God, then they don't believe they need to repent. Give one example of an atheist who repented their sins because they believed they would go to hell.

Your view makes no sense to Christianity what so ever.

Your view makes no sense to reality whatsoever.

Christians who stray from the teachings on hell are a BIG concern to me. Are you sure your not Emergent? These guys don't believe in hell either so you appear to be just like them to me.

There are Christians who don't believe in Hell. Several of my family members, for example. They do believe in perpetual Purgatory, however.

You cannot just spiritualize everthing in scripture either as that seems to be where sometimes scripture gets twisted and misunderstood too often.

You're not allowed to spiritualize scripture? WTF? Isn't that the POINT?

Please remember one of Satans favorite games is twisting the Word!

If you actually respond to any of this, I will be astonished.

Tonight! On Randi! It's a Double-Trouble Tag-Team Throwdown! Kurious_Kathy takes on Ethnikos and Pure_Argent!

...

Or whatever.

 

[TimCallahan]

Okay Mr critical thinker,
What about all the prophesies fullfilled in scripture?
What about all the archeological evidence?
What about all the scientific proof?

1) If you read my book, Bible Prophecy: Failure or Fulfillment?, you will find strong, specific evidence that, indeed, the Bible's prophecies are either too vague to be tested, demonstrably written after the fact or plainly and simply flat out wrong. Several people on this thread have already challenged you to come up with one fulfilled biblical prophecy. Let's hear it.

2) As to the archaeological evidence, it's largely equivocal. On another thread, I've pointed out that the archaeological evidence that should be there to support the Exodus and the conquest of Canaan by Joshua simply isn't there. This is particularly striking because the archaeologists who discovered this unfortunate fact were Christians, who went to Palestine for the express purpose of finding the evidence of Joshua's conquest. Many of them, being honest men, suffered a crisis of faith when they found that either cities listed in Josua weren't inhabited at the time of the conquest or that the cities supposdely destroyed show no signs of destruction at that period.

We do have the Merneptah Victory Stela, whose inscription mentions a tribal group called "Israel" living in Canaan ca. 1200 BCE, and the Tel Dan inscription, made in all probability by Hazael, prince of Damascus, which mentions the "king of the House of David." In addition we have Assyrian records mentioning various kings of Israel and Judah. However, there is absolutely nothing in either archaeoloy or history to support either the united kingdom of Israel and Judah under David and Solomon or the destruction of the Assyrian army under Sennacherib.

As far as the "empty tomb" of Jesus, in the year CE 70 the Roman army under Titus utterly flattened Jerusalem. Any tomb that might have housed the body of Jesus was either flattened along with everything else or buried in rubble.

So, of what archaeological proof are you speaking?

3) What about the scientific proof? What scientific proof are you talking about? The fact that the earth is billions of years old, rather than a few thousand years old? The worldwde flood, that science has demonstrated did not happen (see Dr. Donald Prothero's lecture to the Skeptics Society, "The Breathtaking Inanity of Flood Geology")? I do hope you're not going to trot out that tire bit of tripe about Joshua's missing day.

So, again, give us one piece of scientific evidence that supports your position.

Okay, Kathy, here's your golden opportunity to flatten me with the evidence. Again: that's one specificly fulfilled prophecy, one bit of archaeological evidence backing a biblical text and one piece of scientific data supporting either the Bble or the exisence of a god.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Oh, yeah, by the way, KK. How'd you like to answer this one? I've asked it of you several times.

Elizabeth if you knew God you would know he doesn't lie because lieing is a sin and he can't sin.

If you will read in the Bible Matt. 21: 43-44 43"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."[a]

& Matt. 23:35-39 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'[a]"

I believe you can see more clearly what happened to Isreal in these two passages. This clearly states why salvation is more available to the gentile nations rather than the Jews. We are still in the church age and at the end more Jews will come to know Christ and be saved than ever before. God isn't through yet!

 

[six7s]

Elizabeth if you knew God <circularIllogicSnipped/>

Fixed that for you

Yes, it's a big if... i.e. it seems highly likely that no-one knows god... cos in all probability, all gods are mythological...

Bearing in mind that NONE of your posts even come close to suggesting otherwise, I am curious to know why you post on this forum

 

[kurious_kathy]

Please show some evidence to support your claims. Since you haven't, we reserve the right to disregard your claims.

You guys have seen much of the evidence already and all you do is deny it. Why do we even try to reach you when you choose to be blind to all the evidence that is available?

Have you even checked out the articles I have linked to on alwaysbeready.com's website? http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=71
Many men have already spent time and energy making these documents available for you to read so I will challenge you to go read.

Also What about Josh McDowells book, "Evidence Thant Demands A Verdict?" If you haven't read this yet I think you need to if you are truly open to the proof! I will even spend my own money mailing you this book if you'll read it? And that goes for anyone on this board who is open to read the historical eveidence on Jesus. If you are interested just PM me your mailing info I I would be happy to send this to you.

 

[Hokulele]

Also What about Josh McDowells book, Evidence Thant Demands A Verdict?" If you haven't read this yet I think you need to if you are truly open to the proof! I will even spend my own money mailing you this book if you'll read it? And that goes for anyone on this board who is open to read the historical eveidence on Jesus. If you are interested just PM me your mailing info I I would be happy to send this to you.

You have some gall, asking people to read books.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Elizabeth if you knew God you would know he doesn't lie because lieing is a sin and he can't sin.

If you will read in the Bible Matt. 21: 43-44 43"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."[a]

& Matt. 23:35-39 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'[a]"

I believe you can see more clearly what happened to Isreal in these two passages. This clearly states why salvation is more available to the gentile nations rather than the Jews. We are still in the church age and at the end more Jews will come to know Christ and be saved than ever before. God isn't through yet!

None of your blether changes the fact that, according to the Bible, God made a promise to the Jews, then, according to you, took that promise back. So either (a) He lied when He made the promise in the first place, so how can you believe a thing He says now? or (b) He changed His mind, so you have nothing to count on, since He could always change it again.

Think about it: if your minister said to you, "I know you and your husband are having a hard time, so here is a house for you. It's yours forever - here's the title and the key to the front door and everything," then came back ten years later and said, "I found some people I like better so I'm taking the house back and giving it to them," would you ever trust a word he said again?

 

[joobz]

Elizabeth if you knew God you would know he doesn't lie because lieing is a sin and he can't sin.

Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

there's a problem here. I wonder where it is.