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Split Thread Libertarianism

drkitten

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Mar 19, 2004
Messages
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Courts would exist. You'd just be allowed to secede your property from their jurisdiction.

Ah, I see. So I can secede myself from the jurisdiction of every court in the world -- and then I can rob, pillage, and murder to my heart's content, simply because I'm legally untouchable.

Finally, we see the true Libertopian fantasy come out.
 
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Ah, I see. So I can secede myself from the jurisdiction of every court in the world -- and then I can rob, pillage, and murder to my heart's content, simply because I'm legally untouchable.

Finally, we see the true Libertopian fantasy come out.
I'm pretty sure that mainstream libertarian theory allows for the use of force against bandits. Indeed, most of the conversations I've had with acquaintances who promote libertarianism identify "national defense" as one of the very few things a central government is good for, and one of the very few things that even a libertarian society, properly understood, would have.
 
I'm pretty sure that mainstream libertarian theory allows for the use of force against bandits. Indeed, most of the conversations I've had with acquaintances who promote libertarianism identify "national defense" as one of the very few things a central government is good for, and one of the very few things that even a libertarian society, properly understood, would have.

Of course there's a range of beliefs. DrKitten was responding to the specific view of the most vocal posters (particularly lightfire) in the "Why the derision.." thread who have argued for fully private courts and police.
 
Of course there's a range of beliefs. DrKitten was responding to the specific view of the most vocal posters (particularly lightfire) in the "Why the derision.." thread who have argued for fully private courts and police.
Yeah, but it's a bizarre response: You can rob pillage and murder to your heart's content... because the police are private contractors?

I mean, it's a total non sequitur.

As far as I can tell, Libertarians aren't arguing that people can perpetrate shenanigans without fear of being stopped. It's just that they propose to privatize the stopping methods, and to recognize a much broader individual right to take such matters as stopping bandits into one's own hands:

Statist:
  1. A bandit invades your home, assaults your person, and steals your property.
  2. You appeal to the state, which may or may not have any success in bringing the criminal to justice.
  3. Meanwhile, the state limits the scope of actions you can take on your own behalf.

Libertarian:
  1. A bandit invades your home, assaults your person, and steals your property.
  2. You hire bounty hunters to track the bandit down, confiscate his loot, and return a portion of it to you. Assaulting the bandit's person is at the bounty hunter's discretion. Alternatively, you do the job yourself.
  3. Meanwhile, the local community instructs the sheriff's service they've contracted to consider the bandit persona non grata within city limits, and to shoot him on sight if he trespasses again. The local community also considers reducing the sherriff's annual bonus, on account of he didn't prevent your home invasion to begin with.

I'm not saying the Libertarian method is better. I am saying that I'm pretty sure Libertarians don't actually propose that dr. kitten be free to perpetrate shenanigans at will, while the rest of the community wrings their hands and bemoans the lack of a nanny state to make the bad man go away.
 
Yeah, but it's a bizarre response: You can rob pillage and murder to your heart's content... because the police are private contractors?
Yes.
I mean, it's a total non sequitur.
<snip>
I'm not saying the Libertarian method is better. I am saying that I'm pretty sure Libertarians don't actually propose that dr. kitten be free to perpetrate shenanigans at will, while the rest of the community wrings their hands and bemoans the lack of a nanny state to make the bad man go away.
Nope. A court or private police with no authority, HAS NO AUTHORITY.
If I have a bigger army then your pathetic little "private" court and police, in Libertopia I do get to rob, pillage and murder to my heart's content as long as my army of thugs is bigger than yours.

Didn't you see "The Three Amigos" or any Western?:rolleyes:
 
Yes.
Nope. A court or private police with no authority, HAS NO AUTHORITY.
Uh, okay.

But a private police force still has whatever resources its client pays for, and can carry out whatever tasks its client sets for it (and funds). That seems pretty authoritative to me. It's also not that much different than what we currently have, except that it lacks an overarching state with an even bigger and better-funded police force, that limits what local police missions you, as a client of your local police force, can fund and assign to your police force.

And a private court would probably look more like an arbitrator, whose decisions contracting parties would agree to abide by, and whose services those parties would agree to pay for in the event of a contract dispute.

And of course in the event of a gross breach of contract, a private police force could be easily tasked with the mission of hunting down the deal-breaker.

I'm not saying the Libertarian way is better. I am saying that a nanny state is not necessary to accomplish certain goals.

Not everybody is inclined to be an anti-social bandit. I'm sure that you, were you put into a lawless situation, would prefer to band together with other like-minded people and forge a peaceful, prosperous community, that pooled its resources to drive off bandits and sought out civil and profitable connections with other such communities. And I'm equally sure that although dr. kitten threatened to take up banditry in such a situation, that was just to score rhetorical brownie points, and she'd actually rather join you than beat you.

And you're not the only ones. The so-called lawless regions are full of such people, and overall they do pretty well for themselves (though there is sometimes a period of adjustment). You want proof? That's easy enough: You need look no farther afield than Hollywood!

Didn't you see "The Three Amigos" or any Western?:rolleyes:
Oh. I see you're already there.

How about "The Magnificent Seven"? A poor farm town is oppressed by bandits. At first they rely on the nanny state to save them, but the nanny state fails. So they pool their resources, hire private contractors, and succeed in driving off the bandits. In the process they learn a valuable lesson about self-reliance, and acquire several of the tools and skills necessary to keep their own peace on their own terms. None of them turn into murderous bandits in the absence of a nanny state or the breakdown of the statist legal system.

In fact, the Westerns are full of these kinds of people: Peaceful folk who desire nothing more than civil society, and who are willing to hire sherriffs, and form posses, and otherwise use their own resources to defend their peaceful way of life, in the absence of a nanny state to tax their wealth and do their dirty work for them.

:rolleyes:
 
But a private police force still has whatever resources its client pays for, and can carry out whatever tasks its client sets for it (and funds). That seems pretty authoritative to me. It's also not that much different than what we currently have, except that it lacks an overarching state with an even bigger and better-funded police force, that limits what local police missions you, as a client of your local police force, can fund and assign to your police force.
Wrong. Local police forces have overarching rules that are watched by the County, State and then the Feds. If a local police breaks those rules, the next upper ups come in and enforce them. A local private police is under no such obligation or jurisdiction unless we're back to a big bad central police again.
And a private court would probably look more like an arbitrator, whose decisions contracting parties would agree to abide by, and whose services those parties would agree to pay for in the event of a contract dispute.
And what exactly is going to enforce this "arbitration"? Well wishes and happy thoughts?
And of course in the event of a gross breach of contract, a private police force could be easily tasked with the mission of hunting down the deal-breaker.
Unless I pay them off. Oops, who's going to stop them?
I'm not saying the Libertarian way is better. I am saying that a nanny state is not necessary to accomplish certain goals.
There's a False Dichotomy and Excluded Middle all wrapped up into one here.
Not everybody is inclined to be an anti-social bandit. I'm sure that you, were you put into a lawless situation, would prefer to band together with other like-minded people and forge a peaceful, prosperous community, that pooled its resources to drive off bandits and sought out civil and profitable connections with other such communities. And I'm equally sure that although dr. kitten threatened to take up banditry in such a situation, that was just to score rhetorical brownie points, and she'd actually rather join you than beat you.
And what's going to stop Dr Kitten and his huge bandit army from stomping on your little band?

Sorry tried that with Feudalism, I'm not interested in that world again.

How about "The Magnificent Seven"? A poor farm town is oppressed by bandits. At first they rely on the nanny state to save them, but the nanny state fails.
And the "Nanny State" fails because? A lack of power isn't it? A Libs answer is to take more power away, very smart indeed.
So they pool their resources, hire private contractors, and succeed in driving off the bandits. In the process they learn a valuable lesson about self-reliance, and acquire several of the tools and skills necessary to keep their own peace on their own terms. None of them turn into murderous bandits in the absence of a nanny state or the breakdown of the statist legal system.
Facepalm. Sorry, I'm really not interested in living in such a world or local strong arm forces. What's going to stop them from having slaves? Legalizing rape? Tried that and done that, not interested in such an anarchic system.
In fact, the Westerns are full of these kinds of people: Peaceful folk who desire nothing more than civil society, and who are willing to hire sherriffs, and form posses, and otherwise use their own resources to defend their peaceful way of life, in the absence of a nanny state to tax their wealth and do their dirty work for them.:rolleyes:
Yes really :rolleyes:. If you consider such a world your happy fantasy land or even half assed ideal without a "Nanny State", not only do I disagree, I will actively work against such a pathetic barbaric world from returning again.
 
But you, of course, have personally interviewed every single law student who has washed out over the past five years....

This is like a game show. Coming soon to MSNBC : "Is Lightfire dumber than someone who is dumber than a fifth grader?"

What exactly gives them legitimacy again?
 
I'm pretty sure that mainstream libertarian theory allows for the use of force against bandits. Indeed, most of the conversations I've had with acquaintances who promote libertarianism identify "national defense" as one of the very few things a central government is good for, and one of the very few things that even a libertarian society, properly understood, would have.

Yes. Force in self-defense is always moral.
 
Uh, okay.
And a private court would probably look more like an arbitrator, whose decisions contracting parties would agree to abide by, and whose services those parties would agree to pay for in the event of a contract dispute.

It isn't that absolutely everyone would want to rob and cheat everyone else, it's that law would suddenly be based on the desires of whoever was paying for it, not any overarching laws.

Even to the extent that most of those desires would be similar to our current law there's there's room for difference of opinion that can escalate without end.

Let's say my cousin and your cousin go driving together. There's an accident and your cousin is killed.

You're sure that my cousin was at fault so you hire a bounty hunter to kill him.
I'm sure he was innocent and you've just had my cousin murdered for no reason, I hire a bounty hunter to go after you.

When are these sides satisfied?

Right now this kind of behavior only happens in the US in gangs, but at points in the past and in parts of the world without strong central authority, it's quite common.

Our system takes the decision out of the hands of people emotionally involved, it has a clear process and clear guidelines designed to put the cap of finality on disputes.
 
It isn't that absolutely everyone would want to rob and cheat everyone else, it's that law would suddenly be based on the desires of whoever was paying for it, not any overarching laws.

Even to the extent that most of those desires would be similar to our current law there's there's room for difference of opinion that can escalate without end.

Let's say my cousin and your cousin go driving together. There's an accident and your cousin is killed.

You're sure that my cousin was at fault so you hire a bounty hunter to kill him.
I'm sure he was innocent and you've just had my cousin murdered for no reason, I hire a bounty hunter to go after you.

When are these sides satisfied?

Right now this kind of behavior only happens in the US in gangs, but at points in the past and in parts of the world without strong central authority, it's quite common.

Our system takes the decision out of the hands of people emotionally involved, it has a clear process and clear guidelines designed to put the cap of finality on disputes.

When one believes that he needs to use force to defend himself, he certainly is moral for using it.
 
Ah, I see. So I can secede myself from the jurisdiction of every court in the world -- and then I can rob, pillage, and murder to my heart's content, simply because I'm legally untouchable.

Finally, we see the true Libertopian fantasy come out.

No, that's stealing other people's property.
 
Can you be a bit more specific? which "he" are you talking about?

The "he" refers to the hypothetical you, who hires a bounty hunter, in the example above. If you believe you need to use that bounty hunter and violence for the overall self-defense because he will drive again and kill other people, it is indeed not only moral, but your moral obligation to hire the bounty hunter. Self defense can refer to the prevention of future crimes and others defense as well.

Bottom line, it's your obligation to do what you believe to be right in your heart.

However, if you hire the bounty hunter for revenge. You're behaving immorally.

Can we shift this to another thread? It's off topic.
 
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The "he" refers to the hypothetical you, who hires a bounty hunter, in the example above. If you believe you need to use that bounty hunter and violence for the overall self-defense because he will drive again and kill other people, it is indeed not only moral, but your moral obligation to hire the bounty hunter. Self defense can refer to the prevention of future crimes and others defense as well.

Bottom line, it's your obligation to do what you believe to be right in your heart.

However, if you hire the bounty hunter for revenge. You're behaving immorally.

You understand that this isn't an issue of whether any killing involved is "morally right" but the fact that since each side believes that they are morally right, the conflict will continue to escalate.
 
You understand that this isn't an issue of whether any killing involved is "morally right" but the fact that since each side believes that they are morally right, the conflict will continue to escalate.

When two parties believe that they are defending themselves, it may be moral for a conflict to emerge on occasion, but I doubt it. People tend to work together to resolve conflicts. Even when they choose to compete, they often compete because it is mutually beneficial. Of course, how is this different from politicians fighting in fascist Russia, or genocidal Uighurs fighting the centralized Chinese government?

I have faith in people's ability to see that when conflicts cause dire consequences, no one defends himself through excessive violence. Then, they defend themselves through sweet lady reason.

Cooperation is critical since no one has ever won a war.
 
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When two parties believe that they are defending themselves, it may be moral for a conflict to emerge on occasion, but I doubt it. People tend to work together to resolve conflicts. Even when they choose to compete, they often compete because it is mutually beneficial. Of course, how is this different from politicians fighting in fascist Russia, or genocidal Uighurs fighting the centralized Chinese government?

I have faith in people's ability to see that when conflicts cause dire consequences, no one defends himself through excessive violence. Then, they defend themselves through sweet lady reason.

Cooperation is critical since no one has ever won a war.
Your distance from reality grows daily. Must be fun to live in fantasy land.
 
I have faith in people's ability to see that when conflicts cause dire consequences, no one defends himself through excessive violence. Then, they defend themselves through sweet lady reason.

Cooperation is critical since no one has ever won a war.
Conclusion; Libertopia will work because lightfire has "faith" that it will work.
 

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