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Give autodidacts and independent learners a chance

drkitten said:
That is probably what the opening poster wants the point to be, although he's managed to make a true dog's breakfast of the actual point.



... and this would be much more heartstring-rendering and tear-jerking if there were a shred of evidence that it were actually true.

So far, the actual evidence presented on this thread has suggested that there is no job at all that you can't get on the basis of knowledge and experience if you're willing to jump through enough hoops to do it. The problem is that most of the jobs under discussion are both difficult and dangerous if messed up, dangerous enough that we don't want half-trained people performing them, and difficult enough that even people who have no trouble in a formal education setting are often unable to do them. (Which, of course, is why the formal specialist programs exist in the first place.)

Any fool can get a college degree. Any fool can even get an accredited college degree. Whether or not you can turn that degree in underwater basketweaving into a PE card or membership at the bar is up to you. The channels exist -- but it's certainly no easier to become an attorney via self-education than it is through formal law school.

Given the percentage of law students who wash out because they can't handle the material, I'm truly astonished that the OP thinks that we should make a special privileged path for those who don't even want to try handling the material....
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We haven't covered lawyers in many states without LOSC and I don't think we've covered physicians and most healthcare practices.

Many lawyers are the biggest drain on society. Crooked lawyers are the cause of most of the world's problems. Name a problem and there's a good chance it can be traced to sleazy attorneys. Law students don't wash out because they can't handle the material. They leave because they don't want to study law.
 
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lightfire22000 said:
Many lawyers are the biggest drain on society. Crooked lawyers are the cause of most of the world's problems. Name a problem and there's a good chance it can be traced to sleazy attorneys. Law students don't wash out because they can't handle the material. They leave because they don't want to study law.
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Evidence?

Because the ABA says differently; in fact, they track "academic" and "non-academic" attrition rates for every accredited law school in the country. And those are, in fact, two different categories.
 
lightfire22000 said:
Many lawyers are the biggest drain on society. Crooked lawyers are the cause of most of the world's problems. Name a problem and there's a good chance it can be traced to sleazy attorneys. Law students don't wash out because they can't handle the material. They leave because they don't want to study law.
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This is a claim, in fact it's a bunch of claims:
  1. Many lawyers are the biggest drain on society.
  2. Crooked lawyers are the cause of most of the world's problems.
  3. Name a problem and there's a good chance it can be traced to sleazy attorneys.
  4. Law students don't wash out because they can't handle the material. They leave because they don't want to study law.

This thread and your others contain an awful lot of this. I hope you realize that without evidence these claims are meaningless. If you keep posting claims and then refusing to back them up no one here will take you seriously. Here's an example.

Law students don't wash out because they can't handle the material. They leave because they don't want to study law. Bad

Law students don't wash out because they can't handle the material. They leave because they don't want to study law. Here's a link to a study of exit interviews from law schools where students self report their reasons for leaving. Here's a breakdown from a major law school of their dropout rate segemented into those who were failing multiple classes and those who were not. Good!
 
LF,

I still can't get a handle on which credentials you are looking at, but I happened to run across something yesterday that shows the situation might not be so dire as you fear.

Suppose you are an analog circuit designer. You can find employment almost anywhere, even in these bad times, if you really know what you're talking about - let's say you can be cranking out Gerber files by lunch of your first day and there are no mistakes. If you're good, you know about parasitic capacitance and grounds and microinductance instabilities and all that stuff, nobody will care about education or diplomas; many won't even ask. You'll run into such folks with only high school diplomas. In fact, some hiring managers may not even want a university degree since those courses typically stink on ice for analog. You could well have the title Electronic Engineer or you might not. And, you'll be paid well.

If you're reasonably lucky, and hard-working year after year, you can end up getting a PE license in many states. That PE license will be close to useless for an analog circuit designer, but I suppose it might help you move to a new job path.

So, I don't see the gripe. This is one job area where an autodidact can get ahead. There should be others.
 
Belz... said:
Why am I not surprised by this comment ?

Most of your posts belie a certain paranoia about established laws and procedures. It's no wonder you think lawyers are evil, now.

Perhaps we should move this thread in the CT forum ?
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Some lawyers, not all. They manipulate people into enormous legal fees when they didn't do anything. Not to mention, they destroy many people's lives. Take Mike Nifong.
 
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lightfire22000 said:
Some lawyers, not all. They manipulate people into enormous legal fees when they didn't do anything. Not to mention, they destroy many people's lives. Take Mike Nifong.
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So your claim is really that crooked lawyers cause many large problems.

Can you see how that's remarkably different from "Most of the world's problems"?
 
Belz... said:
"They" destroy lives. "They" manipulate. Sounds like a conspiracy to me.

You make it sound like no one has a choice, here.
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No one does when they're arrested. You also have to pay thousands of dollars even when you win your case in criminal court.
 
lightfire22000 said:
No one does when they're arrested.
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Wrong. You have the right to defend yourself without a lawyer although only nutjobs do so.
You also have to pay thousands of dollars even when you win your case in criminal court.
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So? Isn't that your Libertarian fantasy? Oh wait, courts won't exist in such a world, nevermind.
 
paximperium said:
So? Isn't that your Libertarian fantasy? Oh wait, courts won't exist in such a world, nevermind.
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Not quite right, the term "holding court" is feudal or older, but would be equally valid for the Don Corleones of Libertopia.:D
 
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lightfire22000 said:
You also have to pay thousands of dollars even when you win your case in criminal court.
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No, you absolutely do not have to pay anything if you win your case in criminal court.

The Miranda Rights said:
"You have the right to an attorney present during questioning. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you."
Wikipedia: Miranda Rights
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IHave you really never heard of the Public Defender?
 
theprestige said:
No, you absolutely do not have to pay anything if you win your case in criminal court.

Have you really never heard of the Public Defender?
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Not quite. As much as I hate to agree with lightfire, he's righter than you are in this instance.

You only have a right to a public defender if you can't afford a lawyer; if you have a job, for instance, you can't typically get a PD (at least in my state). So even if you win your case, you're still likely to be out attorney's fees.
 
paximperium said:
Wrong. You have the right to defend yourself without a lawyer although only nutjobs do so.
So? Isn't that your Libertarian fantasy? Oh wait, courts won't exist in such a world, nevermind.
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Courts would exist. You'd just be allowed to secede your property from their jurisdiction.

Being wrongfully placed in a situation where you should represent yourself or go into debt is hardly a fair situation.
 
drkitten said:
Evidence?

Because the ABA says differently; in fact, they track "academic" and "non-academic" attrition rates for every accredited law school in the country. And those are, in fact, two different categories.
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They're partly wrong. If someone loses interest, their loss of interest could very well translate into academic problems. You don't know how hard those students are trying.
 
lightfire22000 said:
They're partly wrong.
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But you, of course, have personally interviewed every single law student who has washed out over the past five years....

This is like a game show. Coming soon to MSNBC : "Is Lightfire dumber than someone who is dumber than a fifth grader?"
 
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