Canadian Heathcare system sucks!!

[Roma]

That has to be one of the most blatant lies ever posted on this forum I believe.

If there's a hall of fame for such statements, this should be inducted immediately.

David Wong I meant that as humour, I didn't think anyone would take it literaly.

I like the "Hall of Fame" thing though

 

[Roma]

I'll give the triage nurse this : there were probably six other teenaged girls who came in right around the same time my teenager was there, and several elderly patients brought in by ambulance, a little boy with a broken arm, a teen boy who had a head injury and another young woman who walked in by herself with a neck injury from a car accident. Perhaps this was just a busy time.

 

[D'rok]

No. There rather clearly (and trivially) is not. If there were, there would be no waiting lines. Nobody would have to go across the border for treatment. You can argue all you want to about how representative such cases are, but they happen. Which means that supply is not enough to meet any demand. It never is, under any system. One of the differences between systems is how to determine who gets denied treatment when demand exceeds supply. But it always happens, because it must happen. I don't need to understand Canadian health care to know that, I only need to understand reality. Now, you can argue the merits of how the Canadian system makes such determinations, but you cannot (at least if you're honest) deny that this is exactly what it MUST do: deny people treatment. Every system has to do that.

This is the worst argument I have ever seen from you. You asked if there was a mechanism. The answer is yes. A statutory mechanism is a mechanism, like it or not. It is not a market mechanism, therefore that automatically invalidates it in your mind. That is just pure denial.

Your system has a price mechanism, yes? It works by excluding 15% of your population outright and arbitrarily denying treatment to some of those who actually are covered but are deemed too costly when treatment is sought.

So if we are evaluating mechanisms, which is better? Which mechanism best matches supply to demand?

 

[D'rok]

D'rok sweet heart, this is not the first time I have had a dislocated jaw so I was aware of the restriction to the Manitoba Health care system even before I went to the emergency room. I required then what I required now: a letter from the doctor to my social worker so that I can appeal to the government for funding for a $300. TMJ assessment. Then I will need to appeal to my social worker for coverage of all appointments and any maxfillo surgery.
Been there, done that 20 years ago. The whole process took over two years. Probably would have been quicker if I could have afforded to pay for supplemental coverage or had it covered under workers compensation but alas, I am a poor under-insured disabled single mom on welfare so life sucks for me.

As for my 14 year-old daughter she was very lucky to have seen that emerg doctor and to have received such quick and excellent care. My problem was with the triage nurse who was so annoyed and thought she was wasting her time with "premenstral" fatigue.
Unfortunately this type of attitude is not terribly unusual, I'm surprised that you haven't heard of women being treated like second class citizens in this world. I'm 50 years-old now so I'm not so shocked anymore, I just don't let people get away with it. Like being called a liar pal.

TMJ is a dental problem and is not a dislocated jaw. Go see your dentist and quit bothering emergency room doctors.

 

[Roma]

TMJ is a dental problem and is not a dislocated jaw. Go see your dentist and quit bothering emergency room doctors.

Maxfillo surgery to replace a disc in my dislocated jaw required five hours of major surgery in a hospital where my jaw was boken apart into three separate pieces and dismantled, the disc located and sutured back into place, then my jaw put back together and wired shut for four months. That isn't dental care buddy.

 

[D'rok]

Maxfillo surgery to replace a disc in my dislocated jaw required five hours of major surgery in a hospital where my jaw was boken apart into three serperate pieces and dismantled, the disc located and sutured back into place, then my jaw put back together and wired shut for four months. That isn't dental care buddy.

Fair enough. I apologize. Then you need to take action against the doctor who turned you away.

 

[Ziggurat]

This is the worst argument I have ever seen from you. You asked if there was a mechanism. The answer is yes. A statutory mechanism is a mechanism, like it or not.

You seem confused about what my point is.

It is not a market mechanism, therefore that automatically invalidates it in your mind. That is just pure denial.

Strawman. I said nothing of the sort.

Your system has a price mechanism, yes?

Yes, but an inefficient one, since in most cases there are multiple layers between payment and provision of services.

It works by excluding 15% of your population outright

Excluding? No. The uninsured are not excluded from treatment (another example of confusing coverage with treatment).

and arbitrarily denying treatment to some of those who actually are covered but are deemed too costly when treatment is sought.

Once again, you confuse treatment with coverage. It doesn't matter what my insurance covers, if I want treatment, I can get it. Usually with very little wait. If my insurance doesn't cover it, then I need to pay out of pocket, but that's a different issue. That's a price mechanism right there. You complain that I don't understand the Canadian system, but you reveal that you don't understand the US system.

So if we are evaluating mechanisms, which is better? Which mechanism best matches supply to demand?

Indeed, that's a rather central question. You will note that I did not answer that question, because I am well aware of the differences of opinion on that topic, and I am not claiming that my answer is obviously and undeniably the correct one.

 

[lomiller]

"Not denied" doesn't mean "provided".

I thought you were against government actually "providing" the service? How come you don’t want the US government providing medical services when you central criticism of the Canadian system is that the government doesn’t "provide" services?

 

[D'rok]

Strawman. I said nothing of the sort.

Your question:

Is there any requirement that the supply of medical services be large enough to meet any demand?

My answer as you quoted it:

Yes there is.

Your response to that quote:

No. There rather clearly (and trivially) is not

It's all right here on this very page.

I think we're done. My advice: stick to physics. I've learned a lot from your posts in the Science section. I sincerely thank you for that.

 

[lomiller]

I required then what I required now: a letter from the doctor to my social worker so that I can appeal to the government for funding for a $300.

As it happens I grew up in Manitoba and have lived here much of my life. I have never encountered anyone who had to get permission from any branch of government for any medical treatment.

From what I can see you are either misrepresenting your injury, or misrepresenting what the doctors have told you. My suspicion is that instead of medical treatment you are talking about dental work, which is indeed covered though private insurance. In the context of this discussion, therefore, the service you are looking for is provided in exactly the same way it is in the US.

I am a poor under-insured disabled single mom on welfare so life sucks for me.

Then it’s a good thing for your daughter you live in Canada rather then the US.

 

[Ziggurat]

I think we're done.

I suppose we are, if you can't understand that there is no mechanism in the entire universe that can ensure that supply can always meet demand. Not under government control, and not under a free market.

 

[D'rok]

I suppose we are, if you can't understand that there is no mechanism in the entire universe that can ensure that supply can always meet demand. Not under government control, and not under a free market.

Now who's playing with straw?

 

[lomiller]

Once again, you confuse treatment with coverage. It doesn't matter what my insurance covers, if I want treatment, I can get it. Usually with very little wait. If my insurance doesn't cover it, then I need to pay out of pocket, but that's a different issue.

My first comment is that this is really no different in Canada, with the exception that you are always covered for necessary medical treatment.

Second while you can indeed get immediate treatment for just about anything, this is only by bumping someone else down or off whatever list may exist. This may be ok for you personally if you have enough money, but it doesn’t change anything in the broader picture it simply replaced one person getting care with a different person getting care.

 

[D'rok]

@Ziggurat

I think I see my confusion about your point. You were asking if there was a mechanism that perfectly matches supply with demand, yes? I read your question as asking if there was an effective supply mechanism at all. (The placement of the word "any" threw me).

Of course I agree that no supply mechanism can match any demand in the sense that you mean. Supply will never be perfectly matched with demand, no matter what.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well, I've never been in Canada so I can't say, but the claim that a dislocated jaw isn't covered by the country's health service seems very very suspect to me.

Some "gatekeeper" nurses can be absolute dragons, and I suspect that happens everywhere. ....

And there in lies the problem with all these anecdotes used to claim national health insurance is so terrible.

One woman died last year, (on camera) in an ED in the US because the triage nurse ignored the patient. It isn't the only case.

I just had a follow up mammogram because they saw "something" on the screening exam. I had to wait 5 weeks for the follow up test and I have decent health insurance. (fortunately it was nothing)

My son had to wait 2 months for a dermatology appointment. He has the same insurance. But the problem wasn't the insurance. He could go to any dermatologist in the area. There just weren't any with openings any sooner.


Anecdotes of health care horror stories are useless for evaluating health care systems of the US and comparable countries with national health insurance.

 

[Ziggurat]

Second while you can indeed get immediate treatment for just about anything, this is only by bumping someone else down or off whatever list may exist.

The only lists in the US medical system where your inclusion means someone else's exclusion are organ transplant lists. And I didn't say immediate, I said with little wait. Meaning that I don't need to bump anyone to get fairly prompt treatment.

This may be ok for you personally if you have enough money, but it doesn’t change anything in the broader picture it simply replaced one person getting care with a different person getting care.

That's not the way things operate here. I'm not saying that I can pay to jump to the front of the line (you can't, you can only pay to go elsewhere where the line might be shorter), I'm saying waiting isn't part of what rations care here, and so our wait times are short.

 

[pgwenthold]

The average waiting time in the emergency room in the US is 1 hour. Of course, real emergencies get in much sooner than that.

My experience with Derm is the same as reported by skeptigirl, except I only had to wait 6 weeks for an appointment.

 

[Ziggurat]

I think I see my confusion about your point. You were asking if there was a mechanism that perfectly matches supply with demand, yes?

Correct.

I read your question as asking if there was an effective supply mechanism at all.

If there wasn't, then your system would be in total disarray. And despite the drawbacks I see, I'm not about to claim that. I am not unable to see any positives to single-payer systems.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

No problem.

 

[lomiller]

Meaning that I don't need to bump anyone to get fairly prompt treatment.

Did you not just write

I suppose we are, if you can't understand that there is no mechanism in the entire universe that can ensure that supply can always meet demand. Not under government control, and not under a free market.

So if supply is insufficient to meet demand and you go out and pay enough money to get immediate treatment do you believe:
a) someone else had to be denied care
b) magic pixie fairies waved their wands and created extra supply just for you

 

[Ysidro]

Has anybody else had the experience I mentioned above, which is that most insurance plans (in America) would deny a claim for an ambulance trip in the dislocated shoulder situation? It was my understanding that any time you could have just as easily have been transported by a friend or taxi or MediVan service etc, that they wouldn't pay the couple hundred dollars for an Ambulance trip.

Maybe it varies from policy to policy but I have real trouble believing that my plan, for instance, would pay for an ambulance ride because I was feeling nauseous. That's incredibly wasteful and (as has been pointed out) is taking the crews away from what could be a real emergency.

Personal anecdote. Location: USA. Sliced my left hand open. Lots of blood. Insurance did not cover ambulance ride. Was not driving myself to hospital with a towel warped around my hand and couldn't get anyone else to transport me.

Not a long wait for the ambulance, but I was a long time in ER before someone looked at me. Missed most of the Steelers game too.