Holocaust denial: is it conspiracy?

[~enigma~]

No.

Then is your problem jealousy?

 

[Skeptic]

In many countries its criminal act to deny holocaust.
What is there so sacred? Do I have to take holocaust as a fact?

No.

You can remain an ignorant idiot.

Hey, it's a free country.

 

[dudalb]

Of course you can question the Holocaust.
You can also question whether the Earth is Round, whether the Earth revolve around the Sun, and whether man actually went to the moon or not. You will look like complete wackjob and idiot if you do, but you can question them.
BTW, I fell that although I despise nothing more then a Holocaust denier, to legally prosecute them is wrong. It allows them to play the "Matyr for Free Speech" card, and I don't want to give them that advantage.

 

[Chaos]

erm...
There have been christian god deniers for 2000 years and do we send them to prisons in 21-st century?

This must be the most pointless and nonsensical reply I´ve had here, which is quite an achievement in this forum.

(English isn't my first nor my second language)

So is there any language in which you can make a coherent argument? Certainly someone will be found who can translate for you.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

In many countries its criminal act to deny holocaust.
What is there so sacred? Do I have to take holocaust as a fact, like Christian god was The Creator?
Is there any other conspiracy theories that is forbidden by governments?

You can't do anything in life without there being consequences.

 

[geni]

vho.org/GB/Books/hoh/index.html#Contents

It's the "denials" side of the history.
I don't say it is the true, but always examine essays of opponents.

My concern still is: why denial of holocaust is criminal act in more than 10 countries in Europe?

You lie and you know you lie. The alturnative would require you to be too stupid to operate a computer. Your post editing makes it clear enough what you are trying to do. The law is not your real concern otherwise you would not have made the arguments you did (and don't claim to have just been bringing them up your post pre-editing shows otherwise). You want to pretent the holocaust did not happen. Why?

 

[Gaspode]

Discussion on free speech split to new thread.

Posted By: Gaspode

 

[Oliver]

Which facts, Oliver?
Only number of poor people who has died.
But all facts that crematories can't "deal" with such numbers of slaughtered humans.

For example:
Biggest death camp had 8 crematories. Most advanced crematory today can "handle" 25 dead bodies in 24 hours.

8 x 25 x 365 x (max 3 years) = 219'000
and we're told that 1,6 million of humans are burnt there.
I have some doubts.

(I will not erase my answer, but I will say that the fact of holocaust is not questioned. Question is: why can't I deny holocaust? As I understand, everything can be questioned)

Well, the crematories itself are a fact you obviously acknowledge. Then there are videos and photos of piles of dead bodies being shot without being cremated, there are thousands of eyewitness reports from victims and perpetrators, there were piles of clothes, toothgold, human hair etc.

Personally the most compelling evidence is my Grandmother telling me what happened to the Jewish Population in White Russia when the Nazis came in, which was: many of them being killed on the spot. And to me it isn't imortant at all if the victims were killed by gas or not. It's no argument to start with in light of the evidence, including detailed documents the Nazis wrote to document the progress, if they didn't "disappear" instantly without anyone taking written notice - a fact that Holocaust denier often miss since they believe it all happened in concentration camps only.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_Reinhard

 

[Oliver]

ETA: [concerning my [German] Grandmothers eyewitness account]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941_Odessa_massacre

1941 Odessa massacre
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Odessa massacre was the extermination of Jews in Odessa and surrounding towns in Transnistria during the autumn of 1941 and the winter of 1942 in a series of massacres and killings during the Holocaust by Romanian forces, under German control, encouragement and instruction. Depending on the definition, it can either refer to the events of October 22 - October 24, 1941 in which between 25,000 and 34,000 Jews were shot or burned alive, or to the murder of well over 100,000 Ukrainian Jews in the town and the areas between Dniestr and Bug rivers, over the course of the Romanian and German occupation.

 

[Oliver]

Are there any figures about how many Jews died within Konzentrationslager and how many were killed elsewhere during the Holocaust?

 

[barfly]

Are there any figures about how many Jews died within Konzentrationslager and how many were killed elsewhere during the Holocaust?

That is my question as well.
Before IIWW there were appr 8-10 million Jews in Europe and Russia.
Jews themselves estimated after IIWW that there were appr 6 millions Jews in Russia itself.
Plus these who escaped to Palestina, US, North-Africa. And those who survived in Europe plus Allies comment that they rescued appr 600'000 Jews from death camps.
So: how many Jews died then?

Some of countries were declared as Judenfrei (No Jews) by Germans, but as far as I know, Jews were there then and their children and grandchildren are living there today.
Including my homeland (declared as Judenfrei during IIWW).

Edit: And do You know that Jews declared that they lost 6 million Jews during IWW as well?

 

[Chaos]

That is my question as well.
Before IIWW there were appr 8-10 million Jews in Europe and Russia.
Jews themselves estimated after IIWW that there were appr 6 millions Jews in Russia itself.
Plus these who escaped to Palestina, US, North-Africa. And those who survived in Europe plus Allies comment that they rescued appr 600'000 Jews from death camps.
So: how many Jews died then?

So you´re playing the old "there are some minor discrepancies, therefore the Holocaust never happened" BS. Can it, we´re not going to fall for that.

Some of countries were declared as Judenfrei (No Jews) by Germans, but as far as I know, Jews were there then and their children and grandchildren are living there today.
Including my homeland (declared as Judenfrei during IIWW).

So? The Nazis did their utmost to make it so. No amount of obfuscation on your part can change that.

Edit: And do You know that Jews declared that they lost 6 million Jews during IWW as well?

Evidence? When and where did "Jews" declare that? Who exactly declared it? Bring it on!

 

[geni]

That is my question as well.
Before IIWW there were appr 8-10 million Jews in Europe and Russia.
Jews themselves estimated after IIWW that there were appr 6 millions Jews in Russia itself.

Um no. Even the prewar russian jewish population was most likely under a million.

Plus these who escaped to Palestina, US, North-Africa. And those who survived in Europe plus Allies comment that they rescued appr 600'000 Jews from death camps.
So: how many Jews died then?

Somewhere around 5.1 million.

Eichmann who was in a fairly good position to know estimated about 6 million.

Edit: And do You know that Jews declared that they lost 6 million Jews during IWW as well?

What a lovely big lie you have there. In the real world no such claim was made.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

mihgt i also suggest that he is in denial simply to make Nazism a viable political ideology once again.

Listen, you are finished. You have ZERO Peer-reviewed Evidence for your cases on September 11 and the Holocaust. Before you say thermite paper, that is a joke. Thermite C A N N O T defy gravity.

 

[Oliver]

That is my question as well.
Before IIWW there were appr 8-10 million Jews in Europe and Russia.
Jews themselves estimated after IIWW that there were appr 6 millions Jews in Russia itself.
Plus these who escaped to Palestina, US, North-Africa. And those who survived in Europe plus Allies comment that they rescued appr 600'000 Jews from death camps.
So: how many Jews died then?

Some of countries were declared as Judenfrei (No Jews) by Germans, but as far as I know, Jews were there then and their children and grandchildren are living there today.
Including my homeland (declared as Judenfrei during IIWW).

Edit: And do You know that Jews declared that they lost 6 million Jews during IWW as well?

Well, personally and due to the terrible stories I heard from my Grandparents, I never cared if there were 6 Million or 500,000 Jews being murdered in the Holocaust to know that the Holocaust happend. Who seriously cares if it was 5 or 6 Million to prove that the Holocaust was real or not?

In other words, let's assume that "only" 1 million Jews died during the Nazi-Period. How in the world would that be an argument that the Holocaust didn't happen? And what would it proof if someone lied to us about the actual numbers?

I asked the question about "Konzentrationslager-victims and Jewish victims being killed on the spot" in my previous Post because I suspect that more Jews have been killed on the spot without deportation into Konzentrationslager. Thus the Holocaust-Deniers babbling about the Konzentrationslager itself would be pretty much irrelevant.

 

[Nick Terry]

I asked the question about "Konzentrationslager-victims and Jewish victims being killed on the spot" in my previous Post because I suspect that more Jews have been killed on the spot without deportation into Konzentrationslager. Thus the Holocaust-Deniers babbling about the Konzentrationslager itself would be pretty much irrelevant.

More than 2 million were shot, about 700,00 died in ghettos and labour camps, and about 2.6 million were killed in the extermination camps. So your suspicion is basically accurate; "the gas chambers", which are all that deniers ever care about, were not even responsible for 50% of the victims, and my estimate of 5.3 million is on the low side; any increase would mean more non-gassing deaths.

 

[Thunder]

"6 million Jews could not have been killed in gas chambers" is a wonderful strawman that Holocaust-deniers use.

No one claims 6 million Jews were killed in gas chambers only.

 

[MG1962]

Um no. Even the prewar russian jewish population was most likely under a million.

I think it may have been well below that actually. The Jews were restricted in Tsarist Russia to an area near Kiev known as the Pace. Following the upheavels of the 1890's in the area. The government began systematic removal of the Jews from the area.

After Stalin took control I am not so sure of the situation. Stalin hated everyone, so while the Jews would not have been singled out, they certainly would not have been left alone either

 

[Skeptic]

I highly recommend Skeptic magazine's issue about holocaust denial.

The estimates of the number of Jewish victims is somewhere between 5.1 million on the low side, to 6.7 million on the high side, differences depending not only on the sources available to different researchers but the definition of "holocaust victim". On the whole, the old number - about 6 million -- stands up well and is more or less the best figure available.

 

[Thunder]

I highly recommend Skeptic magazine's issue about holocaust denial.

The estimates of the number of Jewish victims is somewhere between 5.1 million on the low side, to 6.7 million on the high side, differences depending not only on the sources available to different researchers but the definition of "holocaust victim". On the whole, the old number - about 6 million -- stands up well and is more or less the best figure available.

keep in mind "6 million" is not an exact figure. it is an accepted sort of round number.

5.1....6....6.5.....its still horrible and massive.