Holocaust denial: is it conspiracy?

[Thunder]

Edit: And do You know that Jews declared that they lost 6 million Jews during IWW as well?

no....ONE article in the NY Times said that up to 6 million Jews were at RISK.

not killed.

if you are gonna lie...at least do your homework.

 

[Thunder]

Plus these who escaped to Palestina, US, North-Africa. And those who survived in Europe plus Allies comment that they rescued appr 600'000 Jews from death camps.

before ww2 there were about 3.3 million Jews in Poland. after ww2, only 300,000 remained. those 300,000 came to Israel in 1952.

so tell me, where are the missing 3 million Polish Jews?

 

[Nick Terry]

no....ONE article in the NY Times said that up to 6 million Jews were at RISK.

not killed.

if you are gonna lie...at least do your homework.

Some sharp comments on this were made elsewhere

Deniers chronically have math difficulties as they have evolved toward a mathematical system in which all values equal six million. Add up the numbers in this famous post by a famous denier. See if the numbers that are provided in the post will add up to the promised six million. If you find that they do not it is YOUR error for not realizing that all numbers, whether added, subtracted, multiplied or divided = six million. I. E.: 6,000,000 +6,000,000 = 6,000,000

 

[MG1962]

I highly recommend Skeptic magazine's issue about holocaust denial.

The estimates of the number of Jewish victims is somewhere between 5.1 million on the low side, to 6.7 million on the high side, differences depending not only on the sources available to different researchers but the definition of "holocaust victim". On the whole, the old number - about 6 million -- stands up well and is more or less the best figure available.

And historians go to great pain to point that out. It is not like they plucked a number and said that will do. Those same historians also admit they will never produce a definitive number of victims for this tragedy.

And as Parky points out 4 million 5 million 6 million - no matter what number you choose. It is a horrible horrible thing to contemplate

 

[barfly]

Evidence? When and where did "Jews" declare that? Who exactly declared it? Bring it on!

Source: "The American Hebrew" Magazine
Date: Oct 31, 1919
Article: "The Crucifiction of Jews Must Stop!" by Martin H. Glynn
Quote:
"... a bigoted lust for Jewish blood..."
"... six million human beings are being whirled toward the grave..."
"... In this threatened holocaust of human life..."

 

[barfly]

Ok, guys.
As I see we went into another territory here, holocaust denial.
My first question was: why is it criminal act to deny holocaust?
Even if I don't believe that 6 million of Jews were killed (but I'm sure that very large number of Jews were killed) during IIWW, but why I have to go to jail believeing so?

(I edit because my English is so bad I have to edit )

 

[Chaos]

Source: "The American Hebrew" Magazine
Date: Oct 31, 1919
Article: "The Crucifiction of Jews Must Stop!" by Martin H. Glynn
Quote:
"... a bigoted lust for Jewish blood..."
"... six million human beings are being whirled toward the grave..."
"... In this threatened holocaust of human life..."

So you have three phrases taken out of context, which even then do not claim anyone was actually killed? Try again.

 

[barfly]

And again:
please read denials side vho.org/GB/Books/hoh/index.html#Contents
Author: Jürgen Graf
from wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jürgen_Graf)
Jürgen Graf (born August 15, 1951, Basel) is a Swiss Holocaust Denier and researcher. He studied philology at the University of Basel studying French, English, and Scandinavian languages and spent several years working as a school teacher at a prestigious private school. He is fluent in 15 languages. He became acquainted with the Holocaust debate in 1991 and published several books on the subject in the 1990s, three co-authored with his colleague Carlo Mattogno.

Graf and his publisher, Gerhard Förster, were prosecuted by a Swiss court for 'Holocaust denial' in July 1998 and was sentenced to a fine and 15 months imprisonment. He fled the country, initially seeking political asylum in Iran, and finally moved to Russia in August 2000. He married a Belarusian Historian in 2001 and lives in Moscow, working as a translator.

 

[geni]

Source: "The American Hebrew" Magazine
Date: Oct 31, 1919
Article: "The Crucifiction of Jews Must Stop!" by Martin H. Glynn
Quote:
"... a bigoted lust for Jewish blood..."
"... six million human beings are being whirled toward the grave..."
"... In this threatened holocaust of human life..."

Hey why not link to the pice in full?
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.py?orgs/american/american.hebrew/glynn.1919

It uses some fairly emotive language but isn't far wrong.

Of course I understand you must pretend to know nothing of history but surely even you know that World War I had only just ended. Europe was in a complete mess. Large areas on the brink of starvation. Spanish flu ongoing. Russian civil war (where at least some groups where targeting jews in significant numbers) was ongoing. Polish–Soviet War was ongoing putting yet more lives at risk.

And to be fair the article doesn't really pretend to be anything other than a compaining document.

 

[geni]

Ok, guys.
As I see we went into another territory here, holocaust denial.
My first question was: why is it criminal act to deny holocaust?

Because rather a lot of countries decided that the Nazis were a BAD THING. Aparently being the bad guys in the the bloodiest war in human history will do that. As a result it was decided that it was worth takeing whatever steps could be taken to make sure that the nazis were never able to reappear as a political force. Outlawing certian lies was felt to be a reasonable step to take.

Even if I don't believe that 6 million of Jews were killed (but I'm sure that very large number of Jews were killed) during IIWW, but why I have to go to jail believeing so?

Because a democraticaly elected goverment has decided that some lies are not conductive to the continueing existance of a liberal peaceful democracy.

 

[barfly]

Because rather a lot of countries decided that the Nazis were a BAD THING. Aparently being the bad guys in the the bloodiest war in human history will do that. As a result it was decided that it was worth takeing whatever steps could be taken to make sure that the nazis were never able to reappear as a political force. Outlawing certian lies was felt to be a reasonable step to take.



Because a democraticaly elected goverment has decided that some lies are not conductive to the continueing existance of a liberal peaceful democracy.

This was a good answer.
I will not comment this thread anymore.

 

[MG1962]

Because rather a lot of countries decided that the Nazis were a BAD THING. Aparently being the bad guys in the the bloodiest war in human history will do that. As a result it was decided that it was worth takeing whatever steps could be taken to make sure that the nazis were never able to reappear as a political force. Outlawing certian lies was felt to be a reasonable step to take.

I think this is an important point. The country with the stiffest laws and greatest fear of the rebirth of Nazi doctrine is the country that allowed it to happen in the first place

The German people have always put their hand up and accepted what happened. They have never made excuses, never tried to lessen the horror that was visited on the world.

It is clear the German people are deeply troubled and emotionally hurt by what occured. They are equally determined never to let such events unfold again on their watch.

I greatly respect the German people for this position. It is easy to crow about free speech ect. But how many of us come from a culture that has this dark shadow of history hanging over them, and a fear of it ever happening again

 

[skipster]

Um no. Even the prewar russian jewish population was most likely under a million.

Sorry for dragging this subject back up, but the Russian History major in me wants to say that the pre-WWII Jewish population of Russia was around 3 million or so. You need to be at that number to explain the accepted number of 2.5 million Russian Jews killed during the Nazi occupation.

 

[geni]

Sorry for dragging this subject back up, but the Russian History major in me wants to say that the pre-WWII Jewish population of Russia was around 3 million or so. You need to be at that number to explain the accepted number of 2.5 million Russian Jews killed during the Nazi occupation.

Which estimate has 2.5 million russian jews killed?

Since about 3,000,000 were killed in poland and 400K were killed in Hungary 2.5 million russian jews dead isn't consistent with most accepted figuress.

Wikipedia goes for a much lower total:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust#By_country

 

[Nick Terry]

Which estimate has 2.5 million russian jews killed?

Since about 3,000,000 were killed in poland and 400K were killed in Hungary 2.5 million russian jews dead isn't consistent with most accepted figuress.

Wikipedia goes for a much lower total:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust#By_country

the 2.5 million figure applies to the Soviet borders after 1941. This includes about 1.2 million Polish Jews in annexed eastern Poland. The 3 million Polish Jews figure applies to the prewar borders.

 

[I Ratant]

I believe the criminality attached to Holocaust denial comes about because those countries with those laws experienced the fact of the Holocaust, and have no desire to see it repeated.
Something as simple as the insignia of the Finnish Air Force, a white rectangular swastika on a light blue background,(not the "twisted cross" of the Nazis) the coat of arms of the people that donated the first aircraft to Finland in the 1920s was removed from the Finnish airplanes following the end of the war, as they wish to have no possible connection with the horrors Naziism inflicted on all of Europe which were all too evident at that time.
"Never Again" has to be the watchword when the sewers of the earth vomit forth garbage in the form of the deniers.

 

[skipster]

A quick clarification, I should have said Soviet Union, not Russia. Are we all guilty of not making that distinction?

As Nick Terry noted, there were a lot of people moving around at the time and no one was actually counting who died where. All these numbers are estimates. I'm just going on memory of what I researched/discussed in college.

The wiki article actually shows a total estimate of 1.25 million Jewish dead in the various European Soviets (Byelorussia, Ukraine, Russia). The Baltic states were independent pre-WWII, but were annexed by the Soviet Union shortly after the invasion of Poland by Nazi Germany, so that number could be added to the total. It has no mention of Jewish dead in the Caucasus region of the Soviet Union, which was not a big number but was more than zero.

 

[MG1962]

.
"Never Again" has to be the watchword when the sewers of the earth vomit forth garbage in the form of the deniers.

In a cemetary where I grew up is a monument made of polished granite on it are the words

IN MEMORY OF THE 6 MIILION JEWS KILLED BY THE NAZIS DURING THE WAR 1939 - 1945

MAY THE WORLD NEVER AGAIN WITNESS SUCH INHUMANITY OF MAN AGAINST MAN

 

[Liszt]

In a cemetary where I grew up is a monument made of polished granite on it are the words

IN MEMORY OF THE 6 MIILION JEWS KILLED BY THE NAZIS DURING THE WAR 1939 - 1945

MAY THE WORLD NEVER AGAIN WITNESS SUCH INHUMANITY OF MAN AGAINST MAN

But it did happen again...Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc.

I live in Berlin, and around half the cemetaries are Jewish. It is depressing, but they are kept with care (not open to the public though - I looked over a wall the other day at one)

And holocaust denial shouldn't be a crime. Expect more law changes as the EU becomes more powerful (attempts are being made to streamline eruopean law at the moment)

 

[MG1962]

But it did happen again...Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc.

But whats the other option. Ring our hands and nash our teeth and do nothing. For me the Holocaust is not just about the Jews. It is about all people who have been killed in similar manners through history.

Remembering the Holocaust is to remember all those victims.

I wont comment on European laws about the Holocaust. As a German thats your job. Your people will decide what is best for your society. At some point you might say the pain and the threat has eased and emotionally you can move on, confident you wont get fooled again.

But that day will be of your chooseing, no one elses