Nightline Debate: Does Satan Exist?

[Paulhoff]

My cousin did this to a Book he did not like. Books written under satanic influence deserve to be treated this way.
In this case, it was a Jehovah's Witness publication.
(This is a fake picture I made to illustrate the point)
Burning books to keep them out of the hands of susceptible people is a good thing to do.

Burning is not the thing to do, educating people is the thing to do. Which a lot of religious leaders seem not to what to do. This would most likely show people they don't need any childish ideas of what a so-called god should be.

Paul

 

[kurious_kathy]

KK doesn't seem to realize that by her burning books, she is actually (indirectly) causing the author to gain a slight bit of profit. Instead of taking out her old copies at a local library or nursing home, some sap's going to go buy one from a bookstore, thus rerouting some money his way. Same thing that occurred with J. K. Rowling's books until some sense prevailed.

I believe that burning books did have some merit at some time, when writing a book was done by hand and books were infinitely more valuable. Burning a book then meant that the body of work was gone. Nowadays, books can be printed cheaply in comparison and can be preserved through the internet, even if the book itself was subject to some worldwide ban.

Actually I got rid of those books in a way to be sure I would not be in any way responsible for others reading it.

I also throw movies away that are filled with smut and garbage too! I can't stop the evil Satan has started in this world, but I can certainly voice my opinion about it and try to do my part to fight back.

 

[Ethnikos]

We are naturally the sons of Satan? I thought our religion teaches that we are the creations of God, even if we are estranged from him as a result of the fall. See how this pernicious doctrine of Original Sin has twisted things? If you begin with the assumption that human beings are essentially evil, this allows church authorities to use all sorts of brutality and to abrogate all human rights - all for our own good.

We become adopted as sons through Jesus, who is the true Son. When you believe in God and His Son, you are not ruled by the spirit of Satan. Jesus was sent by God to bring the truth to us and to complete a victory over sin and death. Our faith in him bonds us to Jesus, and the acceptance the Father offers him is shared by us. This status of acceptance gives us the right to share in God's Spirit that Jesus gives us to be better people. We have a better ability to resist the traps of the sinful world and are no longer under Satan's authority.
We should not use our status as sons of God to judge others because we should see ourselves, as we were before we were saved, in the ones yet to find it. Instead of hating them, we should love them because God loved us before we knew Him.

 

[Ethnikos]

In late medieval/early Renaissance Europe most of the beer was brewed by old ladies living alone outside of towns. They wore tall conical hats in market places so they could be easily spotted. At home, they left their brooms propped by their doors to indicate they had beer for sale. Of course they kept cats to minimize the predation from mice and rats upon their grain. As is the case so often in human affairs, the socially well placed and powerful decided there was money to be made. In order to gain a monopoly in beer, the Burgermeisters spread malicious stories about these old ladies, calling them witches, saying they engaged in sex with the devil, and ate small children. This strategy was so effective that even to this day everyone knows exactly what a witch looks like. Of course the townspeople felt free, nay obliged, to kill or drive away these hapless beer makers. It seems clear to me that not only is Satan, the Devil, a mythological character, since no one has to explain to anyone else who they're talking about, but that he is brought into social interactions in order to discredit or destroy someone else.

This was emailed to me by someone who does not like to post directly himself. pAthena (this is an original piece and not just something copied from somewhere) I thought I would put this up to add something a critical thinker might write on the subject of Satan. I do not necessarily subscribe to this but thought sceptical people would enjoy it.

In way of a reply to the above quote, I will point out that something being mythological does not have to mean it is not based on something real. There may be an actual devil and a Satan. The way we think of these characters may be a form of personification to something spiritual that is not easily described in physical terms. You give an example of these women accused of being witches. There may not have been actual witches who meet the definition given, since they were targeting a specific group for destruction. But there could be a few people here and there who really were witches, just not like the stereotype. There could very well be an actual entity, Satan, but not like we imagine, based on the mythology. But I think I get your point though, and it is something similar to what callahan was pointing out. We should not invent a "Satan" to fit our personal enemies, and so perhaps harm innocent people.

 

[paximperium]

Actually I got rid of those books in a way to be sure I would not be in any way responsible for others reading it.

I also throw movies away that are filled with smut and garbage too! I can't stop the evil Satan has started in this world, but I can certainly voice my opinion about it and try to do my part to fight back.

In other words, you believe you have a weak mind who is too cowardly to learn and you are arrogant enough to believe others are as weak as you are.

 

[Ravenwood]

Actually I got rid of those books in a way to be sure I would not be in any way responsible for others reading it.

I also throw movies away that are filled with smut and garbage too! I can't stop the evil Satan has started in this world, but I can certainly voice my opinion about it and try to do my part to fight back.

Wow, I had no idea that torching ink on dead tree guts was a more effective means of combating evil in the world than actually doing some good...My Grandfather was right when He told me after I had announced that I wanted to enter the Seminary, that "Two hands on a shovel will accomplish way more work than a 1000 hands clasped in prayer." It made me think hard about my future & I do not regret listening to him one bit. Wisest man I know...

 

[Ethnikos]

...My Grandfather was right when He told me after I had announced that I wanted to enter the Seminary, that "Two hands on a shovel will accomplish way more work than a 1000 hands clasped in prayer."

It just may be that those prayers are responsible for those two people with shovels being able to do their work. They could have come down with malaria or had a civil war sweeping across the land they intended to dig in. Having a lack of faith because of a lack of readily apparent evidence, seems like a lame excuse to me.
I had someone tell me the other day that he thought he should only pray for himself because he could not see if his prayers for others ever got answered. I told him he might as well be an atheist.

 

[paximperium]

It just may be that those prayers are responsible for those two people with shovels being able to do their work. They could have come down with malaria or had a civil war sweeping across the land they intended to dig in.

Could have. May be. Is that the best of yoru arguments for prayer?

Having a lack of faith because of a lack of readily apparent evidence, seems like a lame excuse to me.

No, that is actually the intelligent and sane thing to do. To make things up without any evidence is the lame excuse.

I had someone tell me the other day that he thought he should only pray for himself because he could not see if his prayers for others ever got answered. I told him he might as well be an atheist.

He should. Your point?

 

[joobz]

Actually I got rid of those books in a way to be sure I would not be in any way responsible for others reading it.

I also throw movies away that are filled with smut and garbage too! I can't stop the evil Satan has started in this world, but I can certainly voice my opinion about it and try to do my part to fight back.

did you burn your bible? IT's filled with smut and suggestions of evil:

Smut:
Ezekiel 23:19-20

Evil suggestions:
Psalms 137:9

 

[Paulhoff]

Actually I got rid of those books in a way to be sure I would not be in any way responsible for others reading it.

I also throw movies away that are filled with smut and garbage too! I can't stop the evil Satan has started in this world, but I can certainly voice my opinion about it and try to do my part to fight back.

Satan, what a convenient little monster he is for you and others, just put the blame on it, not on yourself.

And has joobz has said, get rip of that bible, it is full of crap too. Get the Jefferson Bible, all the magic stuff has been cut out.

Paul

 

[TimCallahan]

We become adopted as sons through Jesus, who is the true Son. When you believe in God and His Son, you are not ruled by the spirit of Satan. Jesus was sent by God to bring the truth to us and to complete a victory over sin and death. Our faith in him bonds us to Jesus, and the acceptance the Father offers him is shared by us. This status of acceptance gives us the right to share in God's Spirit that Jesus gives us to be better people. We have a better ability to resist the traps of the sinful world and are no longer under Satan's authority.
We should not use our status as sons of God to judge others because we should see ourselves, as we were before we were saved, in the ones yet to find it. Instead of hating them, we should love them because God loved us before we knew Him.

Okay, here we come to the crux of this whole idea of Satan. You look out at the world and you see it's a mix of good and bad. However, monotheism, unlike the pagan belief systems which came before it, requires that God be all good. This sets up a conundrum, because the world he supposedly created isn't all good. Therefore, any source of evil must be something other than God. So monotheists invent the Devil, or Satan. However, this really doesn't solve the "problem" of evil, because Satan cannot be allowed either to be God's equal or a separate creation. Thus God - having perfect foreknowledge, has, in creating Satan, deliberately created evil.

I know the argument here is that God gave us - including Satan - free will. Thus, we have the power to choose evil over good. However, if God is all good, then everything he created must be all good as well, and the free will choice every being made by such a perfect creator would necessarily be to choose good over evil.

Since the world is a mix of good and evil, let me posit three possible alternatives:

1) God (or the gods) is not all good or is not all powerful and is thus not abe to banish evil.

2) God is a being beyond such concerns about good and evil. These are largely human constructs. God (or the gods) is only marginally concerned about the human race. Evil exists becccause God isn't all that concerned with human well-being

3) There is no God. The first cause is not a creator god, but rather the universe itself.

Let me also point out that, with your still unresolved conundrum, you imagine a world of threat, run by an inimical being. YOu are therefore doomed to having a seige mentality. In fact, the re is no threat. The world is indifferent to us.

 

[dlorde]

Blessed Gullible is the man who believes but has not seen!!

{ my correction }


I have a famous bridge here you might like to purchase...

 

[Beerina]

Burning books to keep them out of the hands of susceptible people is a good thing to do.

History shows "Who watches the watchmen?" to be by far the greater problem, so I disagree.


Furthermore "Keeps them out of the hands of susceptible people" suggests a proper path from which they are straying. Who decides this path? If it's anything but "leave other people the holy hell alone unless they ask", then that "proper path" is nothing of the sort.

 

[Lrrr]

Actually I got rid of those books in a way to be sure I would not be in any way responsible for others reading it.

I also throw movies away that are filled with smut and garbage too! I can't stop the evil Satan has started in this world, but I can certainly voice my opinion about it and try to do my part to fight back.

But in a previous post (# 249)where I asked why God doesn't just smite Satan, you told me God allows Satan to stay in the world to perform his evil deeds to show people what not to become. Doesn't that make God in the very least an accomplice to this evil?

 

[Ethnikos]

But in a previous post (# 249)where I asked why God doesn't just smite Satan, you told me God allows Satan to stay in the world to perform his evil deeds to show people what not to become. Doesn't that make God in the very least an accomplice to this evil?

How do you know it is evil? Because God says it's evil? What if someone thought that a certain amount of human suffering is worth the price of the much lauded "free will" everyone worships as if it is a god?
Some starving people over here, some other people being raped and murdered over there. What if one person's free will is to rape and murder some other people? They should oblige him, and get raped and murdered, right? Free will. Satan loves free will. Shouldn't we worship Satan for showing us this great thing, free will. How could it possibly be wrong? It sounds nice. Freedom of choice. Someone starving and asks you for food. You can choose to ignore them and go on your way, knowing they will die, while you consider all the fun stuff you can choose to do with the money you chose not to give away. Thank you Satan. I am so glad God did not kill him. What would life be without him. Not much fun at all, going around helping people, how boring.
A grand experiment, that's what it should be. See how it works out for old planet earth. If it turns out to be successful, we should have his "free will" plan everywhere in the universe. We can become missionaries to all the planets in all the galaxies, Oh Lucifer, the great one who brought us understanding and empowered us, to not have any restraints put upon us. Yes, Free-will forever! Even all the churches and popes agree with Satan, free will is the best thing ever. How about Jesus? He loved Satan too, right? Didn't he say, do whatever you want, it's your choice? What? There is no such thing as free will taught in the Bible? It must have been written by kill-joys.
Satan is just too important to kill. Everyone is rooting for him. Freedom from God and rules and thou shalt not's. Just because half the world is enslaved to maintain the lifestyles of the other half, no reason to think the system is flawed. Who cares about the little people.
If God kills Satan, before he has a chance to really show his potential,well, so much for Him. We will just start a bigger rebellion than ever, to show our disapproval. God can't get away with doing that, killing the one who brings light. He opened the eyes of Adam and Eve. How pathetic would they have been, if not for the enlightened one. A dreary sad life, wasted working as caretakers in his Garden. No house or cars, not even clothes. Just whatever food they find in the garden, except one tree. How dare God do that to someone? Blah!! And then, what, just kill someone who we feel should rightfully be worshipped himself, as a God? The world is not watching. Oh, No, that would be too easy. All the worlds in every part of the universe are watching. Lucifer, yes we know him well on our planet. He visits on occasion and we are very impressed with him. He is the most majestic being ever created. He likes to think of himself as being better than that, really. If he says so. Once he is able to demonstrate how free will works, over on earth, we will be happy to oblige him and say he is God. Why not? What did God ever do for us, other than create us and give us life? Lucifer might just have the superior plan, let's wait and see, first, before we start our full scale open rebellion that is universe wide. Of course God will have to allow Lucifer to carry on his experiment. Otherwise, no waiting.

 

[Darth Rotor]

The world needs to see Jesus in the real world and in his disciples lives.

Yep.

The problem I fear is there are not enough believers being properly taught or discipled.

Why don't you buy them your brand of Kilt?

Perhaps I'll move on and dedicate more time to this issue rather than try to convince a bunch of people who refuse to believe the truth of the Gospel!

Praise the Lord.

Oh, wait, you didn't go off and do that.

Sigh.

Your cross to bear.

 

[Paulhoff]

How do you know it is evil? Because God says it's evil?

No, there is no so-called god, so that idea holds no water at all.

Pal

 

[six7s]

Satan loves free will. Shouldn't we worship Satan for showing us this great thing, free will. How could it possibly be wrong? <snip/>

Even all the churches and popes agree with Satan, free will is the best thing ever. How about Jesus? He loved Satan too, right? <snip/>

Satan is just too important to kill

Who or what is this Satan?

There could very well be an actual entity, Satan, but not like we imagine, based on the mythology. But I think I get your point though, and it is something similar to what callahan was pointing out. We should not invent a "Satan" to fit our personal enemies, and so perhaps harm innocent people.

Not something you invented, right?

 

[Ethnikos]

That's understandable. I tell this story by speaking in the third person and then from the first person as an Earthling, then the first person of an other-world inhabitant. Not really all that happy with it, but don't really want to write a book.

Who or what is this Satan?

This is the same story I was telling in a couple of other threads. I just changed it from being an objective view of describing it, to a personal subjective telling of it.
It is my way of trying to answer one of those problems about God, specifically why God allows evil to exist. The way I explain it is that Satan is restricted, at present, to this one planet. He has been allowed to continue to prove that his system only leads to bad things and we would have been better off without him ever getting involved. It's pretty much gotten to a point where the results can be calculated and the test ended. The idea is that the spirit of rebellion will end with the final judgement against Satan. Meanwhile, there are people on other planets who are going to wait for the results because long ago, when Satan was Lucifer, he was allowed to travel freely and many had heard his message and may be wanting to accept it, if it seemed to work out the way he claimed it should.

​

Not something you invented, right?

No, I did not invent this concept of us being a showcase for the alternative to being obedient. You can see KK's comment where she says that Satan is an example of what not to be. The theory I am advocating just takes that a step further by saying that Satan is an example, for everyone, not just people on this planet who are suffering the ill affects of disobedience.
What I was talking about earlier concerning inventing devils has to do with making Satan in the image of people we want to be persecuted. I do not think I am doing that. Unless I am demonizing free willers'. I am about sick of hearing this everywhere, more than I can remember anyone ever talking about it in the past. I do not think it is a good thing to imagine we have free will. Adam and Eve had free will and traded it for something else. They learned to tell the difference between good and evil, but not how to be able to always do the good. God has to give us the desire to be good, meaning we are not saved by our seeking God, but by God seeking us.

 

[Paulhoff]

It is my way of trying to answer one of those problems about God, specifically why God allows evil to exist. The way I explain it is that Satan is restricted, at present, to this one planet.

Just make it up as you go along.........

Paul