Why a one-way Crush down is not possible

[Heiwa]

.
You did not answer the question in the slightest.

I didn't ask you the cause of anything.

I laid out in this post: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4900623 the direct consequences of one row of columns (on floor 98) failing.

The method of getting these columns to fail are immaterial for the purpose of this discussion. It could be by buckling or by explosives.

The important point is that, as a direct result to the 3 story columns, plus the 1 story stagger of adjacent column assemblies, the damage to the floors above & below the 98th floor are considerable.

That is, the columns on the 97th and 99th floors are NOT, as you claim, "undamaged".

You have acceded that, "perhaps it's only the the colums below the 96th floor that are undamaged."

This is too far to go with you. I want to hear your comment my damage assessment for the columns, floors & cross trusses IMMEDIATELY AFTER the columns fail, but BEFORE the upper block impacts onto Floor 97.

Tom

???? If local failures of any kind occur in a structure, associated elements will displace, e.g. the ones above move down by gravity when WTC 1 part C drops. The ones that are fixed to ground, part A below, will not start to move. They may get locally damaged at contact ... but they will not move. And they will not be one-way crushed down.

Clear?

Drop any C on A and check yourself.

 

[beachnut]

...
At the perimeter the outside air cools the structure so nothing will happen there.
...

Your ignorance of fire and structures knows no limit. You have no experience in fire science and zero capability to understand high rise structures.

Heiwa says fire can't do this. Proved wrong with a photo on 911.

Perimeter columns failing in fire! Heiwa is wrong; who would guess?

Oops, steel failed in an ordinary office fire. Heiwa is big time wrong.

A building destroyed by fire. A fire fought! A fire not started with 10,000 gallons of jet fuel! Heiwa can't get this right just like his other delusions on 911.

Got some more delusions?

 

[johnny karate]

Who does NIST work for? and who put together the 9/11 commission?

The answer to both of those is the government of course. So are you saying that the 2 agencies/groups that the government tasked to find the answers to 9/11 cannot be considered "the government" when talking about their theories? If not them then who?

The 9/11 Comission Report was released almost three years after 9/11 and the NIST Report was released a year after that. In the interim, what was the "official version", and what was its specific source?

 

[FineWine]

Everyone notice the oft used disinfo tactic here? The constant smear.

Of course most people will not see the irony in his statement



Since you seem to be way to dense to understand (truth is you probably do understand but are simply to dishonest) let's try this a different way...

How many demolition experts (or experts in relevant fields) have come forward to publicly deny the Controlled Demolition theory of 9/11? Those that have not come forward to deny this, according to your own logic must of course support Controlled Demolitions!!

WHAT IS IT, EXACTLY, THAT PREVENTS THESE PEOPLE FROM SPEAKING OUT AGAINST THE CONTROLLED DEMOLITIONS OF THE WTC?

Sorry, you fail as usual. There is no "Controlled Demolition Theory of 9/11." The cynical liars and ignorant lunatics who make up your mad, agenda-driven movement can't come close to promulgating anything even faintly coherent on the subject of explosives. As I stated in a previous post, is it your "theory" that super-powered Jews magically planted tons of soundless explosives without being noticed by anyone to cause the buildings to collapse from the precise floors hit by the planes? No one has to speak out against embarrassingly jejune nonsense. A low-IQ angry kid who announces from his basement that Doctor Doom blew up the towers with super technology stolen from the Krulls will not rouse the community of physicists to issue a dissent. What prevents sober adults from speaking out against your insane movement's fabrications is the self-debunking nature of those fabrications. I listed two dozen demolition companies that reject the absurdities peddled by your insane movement. Find ONE that swallows the snake oil. We notice that you don't like this question.

 

[triforcharity]

Originally Posted by Heiwa
...
At the perimeter the outside air cools the structure so nothing will happen there.


Are you serious??? Do you even understnad fire and heat transfer??

That is the most rediculous and assinine statement I have EVER seen coming from the "Truth" movement. If that were true, you could turn your stove on low, put a pan on it, then turn a fan on and point it at it, and it would be cool to the touch.

Please, heiwa, or Bill, or Steve, I beg you, PLEASE try this and post a video on YouTube. I would Stundie the WHOLE THING in about 2.2 seconds flat.

 

[SteveAustin]

The total absence of voiced dissent indicates the absence of unvoiced dissent.

No it does not.

Here let's rephrase that in "plain english" (my ex's grandfather was a "plain english" translator as a profession who would take detailed and confusing legal terms and re-write them in plain english so the layman could understand. That was 20 years ago and his services are needed even more today with stuff like this being spewed left and right)

What you are saying is the lack of anyone speaking up means everyone agrees with the Official Conspiracy Theory.

Now, let's tackle the problems this belief has.

1 - people have spoken up, many many people. Even people with the requisite qualifications in the requisite fields. As a matter of fact more experts have spoken up against the Official Conspiracy Theory than experts who have spoken up to defend the Official Conspiracy Theory.

2 - Your premise is flawed from the get-go. You cannot make an assumption on someone's belief. Anyone who has not spoken up cannot be classified in either the pro-OCT group or the pro-CDT group.

3 - to try and claim that people who object to the Official Conspiracy Theory would have spoken up ignores the entire human psychological aspect of human nature and of our society. THIS IS A VERY REAL THING. Fear of losing ones job, or fear of being ridiculed by the controlled Mass Media, or even fear for your life (as evidenced by the Cheney assassination ring).

Your comical cowardice in fleeing from every inconvenient question exposes you as a fraud, but it does more than that. It reveals the fatal weaknesses of your insane movement. If no Iranian or North Korean or Russian or Chinese engineers ever dispute anything in the NIST reports, we can safely assume that they haven't found anything to dispute. All the lies churned out by your desperate, dying movement can't paper over that stark reality.

Comical cowardice! hmmm, comical cowardice! Does that mean you will have the courage to come on over to the BBC blog at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2008/10/caught_up_in_a_conspiracy_theo.html?page=1#comments and try and defend your beliefs there away from the safety of having 15 "debunkers" jump in and provide cover for you?

 

[triforcharity]

PS, Talk to any firefighter and ask them to eplain "Exposure" to you Heiwa.

In firefighting, "Exposure" is when another building is exposed to the heat of a fire near it, and catches fire. IE: Take two cars, set one on fire, and park the other one near it. What do you think is going to happen to the second car??? Most likely it also will catch on fire. Der.

Holy cow, PLEASE heiwa, PLEASE list any building you have EVER had a hand in designing, so I can make sure that NOBODY goes into it, as I would SEVERELY question its structural integrity.

 

[FineWine]

I hdn''t actually looked at this link for a year or two. Wow. I think it is getting time for us Truthers to start ridiculing you debunkers.It's going to start happening soon anyway. You know it. That will be fun.
http://patriotsquestion911.com/

Gee, maybe we're not supposed to know that these fraudulent lists contain the names of many politicians and government officials who regard your insane movement with utter contempt. Maybe we should be impressed by the gaggle of America-hating lefties in humanities departments who will blindly sign on to anything that smears America.

Your problem remains a simple, but intractable, one: it is hard for the person who thinks that 2+2=7 to mock the person who understands that the correct answer is 4. You see, your side will always be wrong. Its opportunities for mocking much smarter, vastly better-informed people are limited.

 

[bill smith]

As an extremely dishonest person yourself, you should know more about the concept of dishonesty. The total absence of voiced dissent indicates the absence of unvoiced dissent. Your comical cowardice in fleeing from every inconvenient question exposes you as a fraud, but it does more than that. It reveals the fatal weaknesses of your insane movement. If no Iranian or North Korean or Russian or Chinese engineers ever dispute anything in the NIST reports, we can safely assume that they haven't found anything to dispute. All the lies churned out by your desperate, dying movement can't paper over that stark reality.

I am not 100% sure of the reasons that some of those countries do not rattle America's cage. One of the first things I did when I realised that 9/11 was an inside job was to check what America's enemies were saying. Not much if the truth be told. Just one very intriguing remark from the Iranian President about there being no true list of victims from the WTC. I don't know what he meant but I always bear it in mind. You never know when it might find a place in the puzzle.

Another time was when there was a big 9/11 debate on Russian TV. The Russians floated the notion hat one of their cosmonauts had observed the events from space and might have something new to say. It was just a political gambit though to pressure America about something.

Maybe the main reason is that they do not want to eat an ICBM or have an unfortunate Earthquake.

 

[FineWine]

Deep, how dare you. You know very well that quote mining (not that that's what you did) is the preserve of the JREF "debunkers". We see it all the time from them, but of course how dare I point that out!!!



So, in your OPINION, who exactly over at ae911truth.org does not have the prerequisite backgrounds to competently critique the NIST report? Please list them and why!



Only a dishonest "debunker" would even attempt to use that as a justification.

32 A quick way of getting rid of an opponent’s assertion, or of throwing suspicion on it, is by putting it into some odious category.

Hehe, they are only "baby engineers", not real engineers like we are. Do people actually fall for this stuff?

Do you people see how the disinfo "debunkers" attempt to dismiss experts without having to argue the facts? Simply make up some odious claim that they are not qualified, doesn't matter how ludicrous the claim is because if you state it with enough force and authority most people will believe you.



Why? Someone sees something that seems fishy right off the bat and that makes them incompetent? Your are really really pushing the bounds of disinfo here Tom



Ah yes, the moved goal posts. There were constant screams from "debunkers" that said we had to publish something, then when we do they arbitrarily move the goal posts. BTW Tom those peer reviewed articles have stood up to critique and independent verification, after all there have been no peer reviewed rebuttals of those papers. A non-peer reviewed comment on JREF is not valid, it has ZERO credibility, regardless of what you say. If you want to critique those papers then do it in a peer reviewed journal. All JREF "debunkers" have said how easy it is to have even a non-valid paper published, so you should have no problems publishing a rebuttal!



LOL there goes Tom again using the old...

"38 Become personal, insulting and rude as soon as you perceive that your opponent has the upper hand.
In becoming personal you leave the subject altogether, and turn your attack on the person by remarks of an offensive and spiteful character.
This is a very popular technique, because it takes so little skill to put it into effect."

Seems Tom (and many others here) like to claim that anyone who does not agree with the Official Conspiracy Theory is an immature kid!! ROFL

How many times are you going to try and use that one Tom? Has anyone taken the bait yet? Has anyone fallen for it?

How is your search going for that elusive demolition expert who buys your insane movement's idiocy? How many demolition companies have you called?

What? You've done absolutely nothing? Yup, you're a "truther" all right.

 

[FineWine]

Bill, you were not supposed to actually investigate those. People were simply supposed to take it on faith that they all supported the Official Conspiracy Theory.

Now you are going to get it!

What stopped you from checking them out? Oh, right, you're a "truther." So, now that the nonexistent people who relied on faith have been replaced with real people who understand that you've been caught lying again, what's the next trick? Oops! All of those sources DO reject your conspiracy hogwash. Sorry.

Oh, you forgot to explain how the air traffic controllers; the seismologists at the Lamont-Doherty labs; the forensic examiners in NYC, Arlington, and Shanksville; the simulation teams at Berkeley and Purdue; the metallurgists at Lehigh and MIT; the police and fire departments of NYC and Washington, D.C.; the demolition experts--you know the drill by now--as I was saying, how do these people figure to be part of your imaginary "government" conspiracy.

Not that we suspect you haven't put a minute's worth of critical thought into the nonsense you peddle...

 

[FineWine]

Mmmmm so you are psychic now? If they have not come out and stated what they believe then why would you try and claim what they believe?

This is just more "debunker" dishonesty.

You see folks, "debunkers" and moreso disinfo agents are required to make it look like the Official Conspiracy Theory is solid with no holes and backed by every single thinking human on the planet. That's part of the psyop, that's how the psychology of it works. Always sound sure of yourself and always claim that everyone agrees with you and no one agrees with the loons (and you have to constantly use those terms like "looney" and "nuts"), and of course the sheep follow suit because they have heard the disinfo agent say they then repeat it as a mantra.

Show us a "hole," "truther." In almost eight years, your insane, dishonest movement has produced ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Yes, I can explain. But NIST cannot explain the one-way crush down that followed

They also can't explain the fact that every other box of Cheerios is made of gold, in accordance with Aggle-Rithm's Axiom.

Those morons.

 

[triforcharity]

Bill, do you really believe that there was/is no list of victims that died when the TT were attacked by 19 Dirkas??

Come on, seriously??? Do you believe that garbage???

Linkey.

http://www.alfredny.biz/09-11-2001_Tribute/wtc.htm

Its REALLY long, or I would post it here.


Oh, and lets not forget the 343 of my Brothers who died that day, some of which I knew personally and hung out with on numerous occasions.

http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/091101rescuers.html

Including Paul Pansini, whom I was VERY good friends with, and drank MANY beers with.

 

[aggle-rithm]

???? If local failures of any kind occur in a structure, associated elements will displace, e.g. the ones above move down by gravity when WTC 1 part C drops. The ones that are fixed to ground, part A below, will not start to move. They may get locally damaged at contact ... but they will not move. And they will not be one-way crushed down.

Clear?

Drop any C on A and check yourself.

Can you explain why this does not apply if the local failure is caused by controlled demolition charges?

Remember the video you were shown, that documented exactly this happening?

 

[FineWine]

I am not 100% sure of the reasons that some of those countries do not rattle America's cage. One of the first things I did when I realised that 9/11 was an inside job was to check what America's enemies were saying. Not much if the truth be told. Just one very intriguing remark from the Iranian President about there being no true list of victims from the WTC. I don't know what he meant but I always bear it in mind. You never know when it might find a place in the puzzle.

Another time was when there was a big 9/11 debate on Russian TV. The Russians floated the notion hat one of their cosmonauts had observed the events from space and might have something new to say. It was just a political gambit though to pressure America about something.

Maybe the main reason is that they do not want to eat an ICBM or have an unfortunate Earthquake.

You've been caught lying again (sigh). You never "realized" that 9/11 was an inside job. You can't "realize" something that is utterly fantastic and completely untrue. When the Islamist fundamentalists struck America, you were appalled that the country you irrationally imagine to be the fount of all evil in the world was the victim of an unprovoked attack. Your fairy world was turned upside-down by reality. You were shaken to your core. You proceeded to latch on to every nonsensical fantasy concocted by other America-haters to salvage something of your cherished myth.

Why is a lunatic falsehood from a genocidal maniac "intriguing"? Could have he have secret information that nobody else is aware of showing that the lists of WTC victims are not accurate? Tell us more.

Do you ever look into the mirror and ask, "Why do I make such an ass of myself to support blatant idiocy that can't possibly be true"?

 

[bill smith]

You've been caught lying again (sigh). You never "realized" that 9/11 was an inside job. You can't "realize" something that is utterly fantastic and completely untrue. When the Islamist fundamentalists struck America, you were appalled that the country you irrationally imagine to be the fount of all evil in the world was the victim of an unprovoked attack. Your fairy world was turned upside-down by reality. You were shaken to your core. You proceeded to latch on to every nonsensical fantasy concocted by other America-haters to salvage something of your cherished myth.

Why is a lunatic falsehood from a genocidal maniac "intriguing"? Could have he have secret information that nobody else is aware of showing that the lists of WTC victims are not accurate? Tell us more.

Do you ever look into the mirror and ask, "Why do I make such an ass of myself to support blatant idiocy that can't possibly be true"?

You are quite wrong. If anything I was a supporter of America before 9/11. I still am a supporter of he notion of real American values and the Constitution. But I am not a supporter of yor goverment as you may have noticed. I consider them murderous swine.

And I DID realise that 9/11 was an inside job all on my own.

 

[FineWine]

Don't tell me- these are the scientists who worked under contract to NIST ? The ones who individually investigated small discrete areas of investigation and had no say in what way Shyam Sunder and his gang pulled all the seperate threads of information together ?
Not enough I'm afraid.

No, Bill, for an agenda-driven crank, the number of experts rejecting the woo-woo is never enough. Tell us why nobody speaks out.

As I understand it, the thousands of scientists, engineers, air traffic controllers, seismologists, metallurgists, chemists, avionics techs, forensic examiners, firefighters, etc., who are cowed by your imaginary conspiracy are afraid of something. But your imaginary conspiracy has to hide to avoid what? The all-powerful evildoers fear someone: who and why? How does your imaginary Gestapo function if the existence of its members can't be verified?

 

[Justin39640]

You are quite wrong. If anything I was a supporter of America before 9/11. I still am a supporter of he notion of real American values and the Constitution. But I am not a supporter of yor goverment as you may have noticed. I consider them murderous swine.

with 0 evidence

And I DID realise that 9/11 was an inside job all on my own.

no kiddin, really? lol

 

[bill smith]

No, Bill, for an agenda-driven crank, the number of experts rejecting the woo-woo is never enough. Tell us why nobody speaks out.

As I understand it, the thousands of scientists, engineers, air traffic controllers, seismologists, metallurgists, chemists, avionics techs, forensic examiners, firefighters, etc., who are cowed by your imaginary conspiracy are afraid of something. But your imaginary conspiracy has to hide to avoid what? The all-powerful evildoers fear someone: who and why? How does your imaginary Gestapo function if the existence of its members can't be verified?

'' The common wisdom is that "you can't keep secrets in Washington," and that someone always deliberately leaks or inadvertently blabs. But, says Ellsberg, who was privy to some of the most top-secret material for years, "the fact is that the overwhelming majority of secrets do not leak to the American public.

This is true even when the information withheld is well known to an enemy and when it is clearly essential to the functioning of the congressional war power and to any democratic control of foreign policy... Secrets that would be of the greatest importance to many of them can be kept from them reliably for decades by the Executive Branch, even though they are known to thousands of insiders."
http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/ellsbergs-secrets.htm