"Neda". Watched it. Not cool.

[NWO Sentryman]

If we had taken the advice of Jimy Carter, and started more massive alternative energy programs, instead of buying the woo-woo that leaked out of Reagan's necrosing brain, we would not now give a rat's how much the Saudis want for a barrel of oil, two countries would not have been made into war zones, and maybe the WTC would still be standing.

Iran does not belong to us. It belongs to the Iranians. Stay out of it.

the same jimmy carter that gave the soviets carte blanche?

the same jimmy carter that is a baathist apologist?

the same jimmy carter that would have stood by and did nothing while saddam waged war on iran? Oh FYI, the USSR gave saddam his nuke programme and 57% of hia hardware.

 

[JihadJane]

No, the other one.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

No, the other one.

nope. Jimmy carter was one man. I was referring to that man.

And if it is a response to the above, why did you not put it in quotations?

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Are you counting the fact the US imposed sanctions on Chile after Allende was elected as part of your scorn for Allende?
How about the support we gave the truckers to strike?
Are you counting our support for the right wing paramilitary group which carried out attacks on Chile's infrastructure including damaging the trucking industry to encourage the strike?Millions more came from corporate tills. (See the Church Report below.)

And sadly, for the people of Chile, our meddling led to Pinochet's murderous dictatorship. And he never gave the copper mines back to corporate America so he essentially burned the US after benefiting from our intervention.

Pinochet killed ~3000 people. Hardly Mao Tse Tung level democide eh?

pinochet killed mainly shortly after he took power. Comapred to Stalin, suharto and Castro, that is a minnow.

Mitrokhin archives confirm that Allende was a KGB asset. The US had to use any and all means at their disposal to prevent another Cuba (see cuban missile crisis)

 

[leftysergeant]

Mitrokhin archives confirm that Allende was a KGB asset.

Whether we can trust the Mitrokhin archives is irrelevant to the fact that the Chilean people wanted him as president. Too bad for the copper maggots. What we did was a crime against the Chilean people.

And don't snivel about how few people out puppet dirtbag killed compared to Mao. How many people were there alive in Chile when he started murdering them, compared to the number in China, and what percentage of the population do those numbers reflect?

The US had to use any and all means at their disposal to prevent another Cuba (see cuban missile crisis)

Who gave us the right to murder people to protect our corporate maggots?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You're only about 3 decades off the mark, sport. That we had people like you in charge in 1979, serving in Jimma Cahtah's Romper Room administration, is why we have a problem now. Put that in your bong and take a toke.

The evidence does not support your conclusion.

 

[portlandatheist]

Look how well just sitting back and watching worked for us in Eastern Europe.

Were you an opponent to the Radio Free Europe program and covert spy operations inside Eastern Europe? What about our very strong rhetoric: "Tear down this Wall!" by Ronald Regan in 1987? If similarly strong rhetoric isn't called for in this current situation, then when is it called for?
Your assesment of the situation being contained to Iran is also totally wrong.

 

[leftysergeant]

Were you an opponent to the Radio Free Europe program and covert spy operations inside Eastern Europe?

Intelligence gathering is always a valid method of self-defense.

Radio Free Europe was the only way to get accurate information about some events to the people there. Today we have the internet. No government involvement is needed, nor do I think it should be welcomed.

What about our very strong rhetoric: "Tear down this Wall!" by Ronald Regan in 1987?

Gorby was trying to stand down, but the brain-damaged twit from California would not let him do so with dignity. He thought he had to humiliate Gorby and make sure it appeared to the world that he had been overwhelmed by old Tofu-for-Brains' mighty intellect.

The result was years of kakiocracy, rather than an evolution from coercive Leninism to a mixed socialist/ capitalist society in which the needs of the working clases come first, but private profit is encouraged.

All that has gone wrong in Iran in the last thirty years is just the stupidity of previous generations of American meddlers in Iranian affairs coming back to bite us in the buns.

If similarly strong rhetoric isn't called for in this current situation, then when is it called for?

It was called for in 1936.

Generally speaking, when we overturn a popularly-installed regime, the end result is kakiocracy. Stay out of it.

 

[Chaos]

Gorby was trying to stand down, but the brain-damaged twit from California would not let him do so with dignity. He thought he had to humiliate Gorby and make sure it appeared to the world that he had been overwhelmed by old Tofu-for-Brains' mighty intellect.

Not to mention the courageous people of East Germany, Poland etc who stood up to their regimes in order to fight for their freedom are cheated out of the credit for their courage, in favor of some former third-rate actor shouting hollow slogans at the Berlin Wall.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Whether we can trust the Mitrokhin archives is irrelevant to the fact that the Chilean people wanted him as president. Too bad for the copper maggots. What we did was a crime against the Chilean people.

And don't snivel about how few people out puppet dirtbag killed compared to Mao. How many people were there alive in Chile when he started murdering them, compared to the number in China, and what percentage of the population do those numbers reflect?



Who gave us the right to murder people to protect our corporate maggots?

Allende only had a plurality in the elections and was elected by the legislature. Eventually the chilean legislature expressed no confidence in him.

furthermore, that is like saying it was illegal to remove hitler because he was legitimate, loved by the people and elected.

He also had links with Castro. There was a good chance the soviets would place nukes there. Oh BTW, Che actually wanted to use nuclear missiles.

as for the mao comparison, Mao tse tung killed 80 million people. out of a population of ~1 billion, that is 8% over 27 years, or ~3 million a year.

divide that down to 400k a month. Pinochet killed 100X less

Chile had a population of ~12.5 million by the time pinochet left office. for the sake of time, let's say chile had a population of 10 million people.

~3000 is 0.3% of chile's population.

So proportionally, Pinochet killed 13X less than mao. Shows you how great socialism is. National Socialism, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, People's Republic of China etc.

but pinochet was still a nasty man.

where did i say it was about corporations?

Gorbachev knew that the USSR was doomed either way. there was no way russia could magically turn into a utopia that lenin promised. if you could think gorbachev could pull a deng xiaoping, you are clearly deluding yourself.

 

[leftysergeant]

Allende only had a plurality in the elections and was elected by the legislature. Eventually the chilean legislature expressed no confidence in him.

That was none of our business either way.

furthermore, that is like saying it was illegal to remove hitler because he was legitimate, loved by the people and elected.

He went outside his borders in 1936. That was the end of his legitimacy. Pinochet had no legitimacy from day one.

He also had links with Castro.

We had links with Pinochet. That makes our government illegitimate and would have justified a nuclear attack against us, by your reasoning.

where did i say it was about corporations?

You didn't. It's just one of those inescapable facts that our entire involvement in Latin America has always been about what is good for our parasitic class.

Gorbachev knew that the USSR was doomed either way. there was no way russia could magically turn into a utopia that lenin promised.

Well, DUH!

if you could think gorbachev could pull a deng xiaoping, you are clearly deluding yourself.

Never said he could have. He would probably have gone, eventually, in the same direction as Walensa. Would have been a lot better for Russia than the kakiocracy of Yeltsin and Putin.

Let the Iranians decide what they want to build in place of the mullahs. We have no legitimacy in that region any more. The Shrub blew what little we had started to gain.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

That was none of our business either way.



He went outside his borders in 1936. That was the end of his legitimacy. Pinochet had no legitimacy from day one.



We had links with Pinochet. That makes our government illegitimate and would have justified a nuclear attack against us, by your reasoning.



You didn't. It's just one of those inescapable facts that our entire involvement in Latin America has always been about what is good for our parasitic class.



Well, DUH!



Never said he could have. He would probably have gone, eventually, in the same direction as Walensa. Would have been a lot better for Russia than the kakiocracy of Yeltsin and Putin.

Let the Iranians decide what they want to build in place of the mullahs. We have no legitimacy in that region any more. The Shrub blew what little we had started to gain.

The US gave pinochet some support, but did not tell him to go from A to B.

big nations treating little ones like a chessboard. that's the cold war for you.

Em hitler left his borders in 1938, with the anschluss.

What else? Mugabe? is he legitimate because he keeps within his borders?

Fear of communism and other expedients for us policy seem to go hand in glove, i agree.

last i checked, pinochet reluctantly agreed to mount the coup. He did not kill allende, who committed suicide, so the definition of coup means that allende has to be alive when he was overthrown.

em excuse me, Pinochet did not urge america to give him nuclear weapons he could start world war 3.

ETA: Socialism has rarely worked. We have Russia, Cambodia, china, ethiopia and the warsaw pact to prove it

 

[ddt]

Em hitler left his borders in 1938, with the anschluss.

1936: remilitarisation of the Rhineland.

last i checked, pinochet reluctantly agreed to mount the coup. He did not kill allende, who committed suicide, so the definition of coup means that allende has to be alive when he was overthrown.

That last bit is quite overblown, isn't it? At the moment Allende committed suicide, Pinochet's coup was already in progress. Allende just preferred to commit suicide above being arrested by Pinochet and his goons.

I'll leave it to others to remark on the rest of the circumstances of Pinochet's coup, but IIRC, the US substantially supported him to overthrown Pinochet.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

1936: remilitarisation of the Rhineland.


That last bit is quite overblown, isn't it? At the moment Allende committed suicide, Pinochet's coup was already in progress. Allende just preferred to commit suicide above being arrested by Pinochet and his goons.

I'll leave it to others to remark on the rest of the circumstances of Pinochet's coup, but IIRC, the US substantially supported him to overthrown Pinochet.

But it was, in the words of neville chamberlain, germany's "own backyard".

It was within its borders, and the versaillles treaty was dead with the anglo german naval agreement.

 

[leftysergeant]

Uote]

The US gave pinochet some support, but did not tell him to go from A to B.

That is questionable. He could have been fully our critter or just encouraged in his whackadoodlery by us.

It is odd that Friedman and his scum bags were so ready with their ecconomic plan when the shooting was over if it wasn't our doing.

big nations treating little ones like a chessboard. that's the cold war for you.

And itwas wrong and inhumane and not conducive to human dignity, which is why it turned nations against us.

Em hitler left his borders in 1938, with the anschluss.

He also annexed the good resources of Czechslovakia on the flimsy excuse of human rights violations. Google "Sudetenland," then admit that you have some gaps in your understanding of these things.

Mugabe is just not our concern until there is a war that spills over his borders. We spent too many resources supporting white dominated governments in the region to have any say in what happens next.

Fear of communism and other expedients for us policy seem to go hand in glove, i agree.

last i checked, pinochet reluctantly agreed to mount the coup. He did not kill allende, who committed suicide, so the definition of coup means that allende has to be alive when he was overthrown.

This is really far-fetched. A revolutionary leader just decided to off himself for no particular reason and some dirtbag with foreign backing decided that that was the time to make himself dictator and it had nothing to do with foreign manipulations.

[QETA: Socialism has rarely worked. We have Russia, Cambodia, china, ethiopia and the warsaw pact to prove it[/QUOTE]

So? That does not give us an excuse to destroy other countries to make sure that they don't try it.

How is Vietnam doing these days, as far as ecconomic development?

 

[NWO Sentryman]

That is questionable. He could have been fully our critter or just encouraged in his whackadoodlery by us.

It is odd that Friedman and his scum bags were so ready with their ecconomic plan when the shooting was over if it wasn't our doing.



And itwas wrong and inhumane and not conducive to human dignity, which is why it turned nations against us.

He also annexed the good resources of Czechslovakia on the flimsy excuse of human rights violations. Google "Sudetenland," then admit that you have some gaps in your understanding of these things.

Mugabe is just not our concern until there is a war that spills over his borders. We spent too many resources supporting white dominated governments in the region to have any say in what happens next.

Fear of communism and other expedients for us policy seem to go hand in glove, i agree.


This is really far-fetched. A revolutionary leader just decided to off himself for no particular reason and some dirtbag with foreign backing decided that that was the time to make himself dictator and it had nothing to do with foreign manipulations.

[qimg]http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/spanlib/th_doglaugh.gif[/qimg]


[QETA: Socialism has rarely worked. We have Russia, Cambodia, china, ethiopia and the warsaw pact to prove it

So? That does not give us an excuse to destroy other countries to make sure that they don't try it.

How is Vietnam doing these days, as far as ecconomic development?[/QUOTE]

where id i say it justified creating hells in indochina.

The Sudetenland (september) was after the anschluss (march).

Vietnam seems to be doing well, and has actually begun to recover from the horrendous war. Just one of those things that had to descend into a hellhole.

As for my chessboard remark, what was the west to do after Potsdam? give Stalin carte blanche? Start WW3 in a war weary world?

I was saying that Pinochet had some pointers, and just decided to go ahead. Allende saw the writing on the wall in his palace and shot himself as a result. don't apply to conspiracy what could be applied to opportunism. by your logic, the wtc/pentagon attacks were done by the us government.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Were you an opponent to the Radio Free Europe program and covert spy operations inside Eastern Europe? What about our very strong rhetoric: "Tear down this Wall!" by Ronald Regan in 1987? If similarly strong rhetoric isn't called for in this current situation, then when is it called for?
Your assesment of the situation being contained to Iran is also totally wrong.

The whole problem in the middle east is that we did not back Saddam enough right? As Regan's buddy and ally against Iran we needed to give them more weapons to make their war effective. Probably nukes.

 

[leftysergeant]

I was saying that Pinochet had some pointers, and just decided to go ahead. Allende saw the writing on the wall in his palace and shot himself as a result. don't apply to conspiracy what could be applied to opportunism.

Are you going to sat, then, that Friedman and his gang of maggots just knew far enough ahead of time to develop a plan for the corpse of Chile's democracy?

by your logic, the wtc/pentagon attacks were done by the us government.

What an absurd comment.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

The whole problem in the middle east is that we did not back Saddam enough right? As Regan's buddy and ally against Iran we needed to give them more weapons to make their war effective. Probably nukes.

Nope. America only gave a few unarmed Hueys as VIP transport. If America armed saddam, then why were there BMPS, AK-47s, Type-69s, MIGs, Mirages, T-55s, T-72s and other warsaw pact hardware?

Source:

to break it down in country of origin and percentage:

Russia: 57%

China: 12%

France: 13%

Warsaw pact: 12%

Brazil: 2%

Denmark: 1%

Egypt: 1%

USA: 1%

 

[ponderingturtle]

Nope. America only gave a few unarmed Hueys as VIP transport. If America armed saddam, then why were there BMPS, AK-47s, Type-69s, MIGs, Mirages, T-55s, T-72s and other warsaw pact hardware?

Just shows what a bad ally we were in the 80's when cheney was kissing his butt.