www.StopVisionFromFeeling.com - Volunteers Needed

[desertgal]

Actually, it matters quite a lot. This is why we use the scientific method to study medicine instead of the VisionFromFeeling method, otherwise known as making things up. If something you do has an effect, you need to work out how and why it works, what the limits are, what the side effects might be, and so on. If you actually can't do anything, then you need to know that, otherwise you end up believing you actually have magical abilities to cure people and will either end up causing serious harm to someone or simply end up in jail for fraud.

Excellent points.

Do you understand, Anita, that what you claim to have done with this man, and what you are proposing to do with others in the future is illegal? Not only fraudulent and potentially harmful, but also a violation of the medical practice statutes nationwide. You are putting an awful lot at risk here, including your academic career and your right to remain in the United States. You say it "has nothing to do with you", but that isn't the way the authorities would view it.

 

[wardenclyffe]

Thanks, desertgal. I had mis-read what UncaYimmy wrote. In the phrase "Once again, she didn't like that, so she's not talking about F-A-C-T anymore," I mis-read the word "about" as "to." Big difference.

Thanks and sorry,
Ward

 

[Uncayimmy]

On UncaYimmy's website (www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com), he says that VfF has stopped communication with the F.A.C.T. skeptics meet-up group in North Carolina.

First off, if you think something I wrote on the website is incorrect, I encourage you to make an account and post as much in the appropriate thread.

Second, you're wrong about what I wrote. What I wrote was, "Once again, she didn't like that, so she's not talking about F-A-C-T anymore." I stand behind this statement. I never said she wasn't talking to them or not attending meetings. I said she is not talking about them. For a while there it was F-A-C-T this and Dr. Carlson that. Now there's nothing.

Once the Dr. Carlson revealed the results of the study, she became very quiet about them. She promised to post the results of her study, but kept making excuses about not having both sets of papers. She's had them for a while now, but still nothing. It's all new stuff about detecting a person's hand in a bucket of ice or healing migraines by applying voltage to the veins.

This is part of a larger pattern where she makes a big production out of things until it becomes uncomfortable for her fantasies/delusions/lies.

* First it was the IIG ("they can't figure out how to test me").

* Then it was detecting lactobacillus ("oh, but now it makes my head hurt").

* Then it was reading photos ("that's not my main claim anyway").

* Then it was the moderated Interview thread ("Oh, I'm just too busy to respond now even though I have responded to hundreds of other posts").

* Then it was identifying the chemicals in crushed pills ("I spent two hours, but I need more time and I'm just too busy for all these months. Besides, I need uncrushed pills and can't possibly get them from the drugstore myself.").

* Then it was working with F-A-C-T on a big study ("four months is not enough time for me to post the results. Besides, I really did detect Dr. Carslon's missing kidney - I was just too scared to say anything even though when it comes to readings I have never been wrong before in my whole life.").

Part of what my site does is point out these patterns.

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

This has become quite frightening, at least from my perspective. This recent claim she put forth could actually hurt someone. I hope that Anita would, take a step back, and really examine the potential damage she could do with her supposed healing technique.

Thank you for your concern, and I am concerned also of fraud psychics who exploit people in need. However my motives are not greed or scamming, and I am very careful in my approach.

On UncaYimmy's website (www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com), he says that VfF has stopped communication with the F.A.C.T. skeptics meet-up group in North Carolina.

I have not seen that info anywhere else. I assume that this information came from a private conversation between VfF and UncaYimmy. She attended the most recent F.A.C.T. meeting (http://www.meetup.com/f-a-c-t/calendar/10466099/) and I have not heard anything disparaging from her about them. She seems, or seemed, to have admired Dr. Carlson who helps head up the group.

I hope UY is mistaken and she stays in touch with F.A.C.T.. This group (or individual members of it) can be of great assistance in her future studies. If she hopes to claim the IIG's (www.iigwest.org) $50K prize, I think she'll probably have to go through F.A.C.T. first. They were the only people who seemed to be able to convince VfF that she was not making a testable claim. They made progress where no one on this board or at IIG seemed to be able to.

I think the report of her coming in third out of four was made before last month's meeting (I could be wrong), and she still went to the meeting.

So if anyone has further information about the reported "break-up" between VfF and F.A.C.T., please let us know.

I am still attending every FACT meeting and intend to ask them to be involved in a local test once I get that far in the investigation. Before that I wish to have more experience with reading people so that a trend would become more obvious. Of course I admire Dr. Carlson, he is a wonderful scientist, excellent skeptic, and a lovely person.

The fact that I came third out of four in the point scale system of the first study is no reason for me to not attend a FACT meeting. I am not opposed to falsification of the claim, no matter how passionately some JREF Forum Skeptics here would love to insist that I should be, as a paranormal claimant.

As a science student I should know better. I mean, you could be in the chemistry lab and months of work could be "ruined" because you ended up falsifying what had seemed to be a promising hypothesis. No scientist would continue to waste time and resources in pursuing the claim further, trying to ignore the truth of the matter. However, I truly believe that the claim has not been falsified quite yet. And trust me if there is no ability then that will become obvious as I gather more data. No conclusion can be made from just five readings that involved scattered forms of information and flaws in the study procedure.

There are numerous other far more likely possibilities. Firstly, there's the placebo effect. Contrary to what you probably think, that does not mean you did anything, it simply means that a person might feel better (but not actually have any physical improvement) when they think something has been done. It could be regression towards the mean, which is when normal variation in the severity of an ailment can appear to be improvement attributed to a specific treatment that happened to done when the ailment was at its worst. A related problem is confirmation bias - maybe you tried treating him several times and only on the one time there appeared to be an
effect did you report it.

You are right there could be any number of possibilities. I do not take credit for his improvement, yet I want to explore whether other migraine sufferers would experience the same dramatic improvement after seeing me. And even if all I did were to introduce a placebo, I'd be happy to be the source of such a good placebo that really helps. The vast improvement occurred after the first and only treatment that I had given him. I had not even met him prior to that.

Of course, by far the most likely explanation is that you are just lying. You certainly don't have the best track record for honesty.

I might come across as unfocused or incompetent in my investigation, but one thing I am not is a liar, but of course you are entitled to questioning my honesty. After all, you are a skeptic. And skeptics must remain skeptical.

We went from seeing some pretty colours to medical diagnosis to meeting with ghosts to being an alien to magically curing illnesses.

The investigation started with medical perceptions and continues with the same. Later I added description of synesthesia into the search for an explanation. As for communication with ghosts, that was mentioned in other threads where I was discussing my experiences with that topic, and it does not form another claim that I want investigated here.

As for being a Star Person (alien), that is a personal characteristic and should be of not much more interest than my political or religious denomination. Star People are simply individuals who feel a strong connection with outer space on a personal level. It doesn't necessarily mean that we are going to insist that we are from outer space, but we feel that we are. To explain some of what Star People are like, you might like to see http://www.drboylan.com/starkididqstnr.html. I scored between 51 to 60 on the questions, 9 of which are unknown and relate to my early childhood and I would have to ask my mother about them, and 3 no, out of a total possible of 67. It was only brought up since there was a Skeptic site that asks "Are you human?" before you can register and one would have to answer yes. At first I said no and couldn't register. Then I said yes, but then I emailed them and asked them to withdraw my registration and that's where all this mess came from. And as for curing illnesses, we don't know that yet but I am intending to find out if I can. I'm just expressing #24, #25, #26 and #27 on the questionnaire.

Of course, this is not amazingly unusual, there are frauds and liars all of the place claiming similar things. What does seem odd, however, is that you persist in this nonsense despite the fact that not a single person appears to actually believe you. Even the most obvious frauds usually manage to get some kind of following after this length of time, how exactly do you manage to be so unconvincing?

I am not here to gain followers. I am sharing my investigation with skeptics because "psychics" rarely offer any insight and scrutiny into their claims. We are arguing because there is a lack of data.

VisionFromFeeling method, otherwise known as making things up.

Actually, what I call "vision from feeling" are things similar to synesthetic perceptions, I am describing what I perceive and I am not making them up. In the same way as I perceive the number 2 is orange. I don't make it up, I just describe what I see.

If something you do has an effect, you need to work out how and why it works, what the limits are, what the side effects might be, and so on. If you actually can't do anything, then you need to know that, otherwise you end up believing you actually have magical abilities to cure people and will either end up causing serious harm to someone or simply end up in jail for fraud.

I know that. I totally agree, and that is what I am working on.

Do you understand, Anita, that what you claim to have done with this man, and what you are proposing to do with others in the future is illegal?

No I don't understand that. I visualized colored light into the perception I had of the inside of a man's brain. And then I gave a gentle (and quite comfortable and relaxing) massage with my fingertips. Most people would love to sit down and get a massage. Desertgal, just cool down.

Not only fraudulent and potentially harmful, but also a violation of the medical practice statutes nationwide. You are putting an awful lot at risk here, including your academic career and your right to remain in the United States.

I am aware that the incident of attempting to heal a man who was suffering from constant migraines and experiencing a coincidental dramatic improvement in his condition after the treatment might stir things up in my career or VISA status, however, all it was was visualization and a gentle massage and neither of those things are illegal. I charged no money and emphasized that he continue to rely on conventional medicine and medications and that what I do must be considered as nonsense and useless. Yet it either coincided with a dramatic healing or it had some effect, whether placebo or otherwise. A foreign student wanting to give headache sufferers a relieving head massage is definitely not grounds for not granting them employment or for having them deported. It should show that I am a caring individual. Besides, something happened, and I intend to find out whether it can happen again.

 

[Tricky]

It is not very surprising that some of this discussion has drifted away from the discussion of the website. That might be expected when you discuss items on the website. However, there is a thread for VFF's general claims right here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138995
Please try to confine discussions that in no way relate to the www.StopVisionFromFeeling.com website to that thread, not this one.

Thank you
Tricky

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky

 

[Audible Click]

Thank you for your concern, and I am concerned also of fraud psychics who exploit people in need. However my motives are not greed or scamming, and I am very careful in my approach.

I remain concerned,Anita, because what you are doing could actually hurt you and the person/people that you are going to "heal". Can't you see that no matter what you tell them about continuing their medical treatment and meds, that it is entirely possible that someone would not do those things and have a disaterous result? Can you not see you are risking your future both academic and personal?

The fact that I came third out of four in the point scale system of the first study is no reason for me to not attend a FACT meeting. I am not opposed to falsification of the claim, no matter how passionately some JREF Forum Skeptics here would love to insist that I should be, as a paranormal claimant.

You agreed to post the raw data from your FACT study on this forum. I've asked you this question numerous times and I'll ask again: Why have you not posted this data? Not posting it puts you in a very bad light as regards to your honesty and the ability to stand by what you said you would do. Please reply to the question in my post.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

I still have not seen a convincing argument why your site will prevent people who are unable/unwilling to apply simple common sense to listen to an individual who sports zero, repeat: zero, professional credentials.

People motivated by desperation or imminent death do not seem a counterargument because they may have abandoned common sense a while ago.

Phrased a bit more direct: Can you really reach people who are willing to listen to VFF in the first place?

I think you have the resources to come with more than "One has to try."



You saying this struck me:

...
Of course, maybe she never tries because I blocked her path. Good for me.
...

A Freudian Slip or a manifestation of your motivation, Agent Smith?

 

[Apology]

Neither. The fact that those are the only possibilities you consider, neither of which are actually possible (that is, you have no abilities and there is no such thing as a good luck charm), is rather telling. Again you prove that not only do you have no idea about the scientific method and no knowledge in the relevant field, you clearly have no interest in actually educating yourself.

There are numerous other far more likely possibilities. Firstly, there's the placebo effect. Contrary to what you probably think, that does not mean you did anything, it simply means that a person might feel better (but not actually have any physical improvement) when they think something has been done. It could be regression towards the mean, which is when normal variation in the severity of an ailment can appear to be improvement attributed to a specific treatment that happened to done when the ailment was at its worst. A related problem is confirmation bias - maybe you tried treating him several times and only on the one time there appeared to be an
effect did you report it.

Of course, by far the most likely explanation is that you are just lying. You certainly don't have the best track record for honesty. You claim to be investigating your nonsense scientifically yet constantly make up new, ever more impressive, superpowers for yourself. We went from seeing some pretty colours to medical diagnosis to meeting with ghosts to being an alien to magically curing illnesses. Of course, this is not amazingly unusual, there are frauds and liars all of the place claiming similar things. What does seem odd, however, is that you persist in this nonsense despite the fact that not a single person appears to actually believe you. Even the most obvious frauds usually manage to get some kind of following after this length of time, how exactly do you manage to be so unconvincing?



Actually, it matters quite a lot. This is why we use the scientific method to study medicine instead of the VisionFromFeeling method, otherwise known as making things up. If something you do has an effect, you need to work out how and why it works, what the limits are, what the side effects might be, and so on. If you actually can't do anything, then you need to know that, otherwise you end up believing you actually have magical abilities to cure people and will either end up causing serious harm to someone or simply end up in jail for fraud.

These are all good possibilities. I thought of another one that should be added to the list.

The man could have had a brain vascular malformation---basically, a weak capillary. The stress on the capillary (or capillaries) could have caused his headaches. Since Anita's "treatments", one or more of the capillaries could have burst on their own. While this would relieve the headache pain, which would make him feel better, in actuality, his condition would be much worse.

Malformations of this type can be so small that they can't be seen using conventional clinical testing, which explains why a neurologist didn't find anything.

 

[Uncayimmy]

I still have not seen a convincing argument why your site will prevent people who are unable/unwilling to apply simple common sense to listen to an individual who sports zero, repeat: zero, professional credentials.

It seems to me that people unwilling/unable to listen to common sense are actually much more likely to listen to someone with zero, repeat, zero professional credentials. It would be my perfect audience, wouldn't it? As it is I prefer my logic and observations to stand on their own. One need not be a professional to do what I have done, so I don't see where that plays into it.

Phrased a bit more direct: Can you really reach people who are willing to listen to VFF in the first place?

Answered directly: Yes.

I've never met anyone who says that all psychics are real, which is another way of saying that I've met plenty of people willing to listen to someone like VFF who think that there are genuine pyschics/healers/prophets along with some level of (a lot, a few) fake/fraudulent/deluded ones.

And let's say she starts marketing herself and trying to get in the local paper. When the reporter does 10 minutes of research, he finds my site. Most likely he's one of those, "Some are frauds but a few are real" guys. After looking at my site, what do you think he concludes? I'm hoping fraud.

You saying this struck me:

Of course, maybe she never tries because I blocked her path. Good for me.

A Freudian Slip or a manifestation of your motivation, Agent Smith?

Not a Freudian slip by any means. Right before that I wrote, "If she never tries to do so, then maybe I wasted my time. Big deal." To sum it up:

A) I wasted my time - big deal.
B) I did not waste my time - good for me.

I certainly do want to "block her path" when it comes to duping people in the future. Are you saying you're okay with her duping people?

 

[LightinDarkness]

I still have not seen a convincing argument why your site will prevent people who are unable/unwilling to apply simple common sense to listen to an individual who sports zero, repeat: zero, professional credentials.

Because people ignore Sylvia Brown because she has zero, repeat: zero credentials.

 

[Cuddles]

As noted by Tricky, this is not the thread for general discussion of VisionFromFeeling's claims. Please take such posts to the general discussion thread created for that. I apologise for my part in the derail.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles

 

[GzuzKryzt]

It seems to me that people unwilling/unable to listen to common sense are actually much more likely to listen to someone with zero, repeat, zero professional credentials. It would be my perfect audience, wouldn't it? As it is I prefer my logic and observations to stand on their own. One need not be a professional to do what I have done, so I don't see where that plays into it.

Ah, you probably misunderstood: I meant VFF being the one with zero credentials.

If your site is done properly from a journalistic point of view - and so it seems to me so far - you will reveal the sources for your information and make it possible and easy for anyone to retrace your steps. That would be professional enough in my book.

Answered directly: Yes.

I've never met anyone who says that all psychics are real, which is another way of saying that I've met plenty of people willing to listen to someone like VFF who think that there are genuine pyschics/healers/prophets along with some level of (a lot, a few) fake/fraudulent/deluded ones.

And let's say she starts marketing herself and trying to get in the local paper. When the reporter does 10 minutes of research, he finds my site. Most likely he's one of those, "Some are frauds but a few are real" guys. After looking at my site, what do you think he concludes? I'm hoping fraud.

You and me both.

Not a Freudian slip by any means. Right before that I wrote, "If she never tries to do so, then maybe I wasted my time. Big deal." To sum it up:

A) I wasted my time - big deal.
B) I did not waste my time - good for me.

I certainly do want to "block her path" when it comes to duping people in the future. Are you saying you're okay with her duping people?

Classic CFLarsen strategy. You will certainly forgive me if I don't bite, yes?

 

[Cuddles]

Have to say, I think I'm starting to change my mind on this. I originally thought it was rather a pointless waste of time to create a whole website dedicated to someone with a few silly beliefs that she has superpowers. However, given the direction her claims now seem to be going, I'm not so sure. She's gone from making a few silly claims and vaguely thinking about testing them to making claims (probably actually illegal ones) about healing people, on websites other than here and her own, as well as outright refusing to actually test anything or provide the results of previous tests.

I think the turning point was here.

Anita has now joined a migraine support group to give treatments to other migraine sufferers

When she confined her silly claims to here and her personal website that was one thing. When she starts not only making dangerous claims, but also spreading them around to make sure people who could be harmed will see them, that's rather different. Of course, if she never makes it big we'll never know if UncaYimmy's website had anything to do with it. In any case, I no longer consider it to be a bad idea.

 

[Audible Click]

You're welcome to join UY's forum. We're doing our best to get Stop VfF to be near the top on search engines.

 

[wardenclyffe]

Have to say, I think I'm starting to change my mind on this. I originally thought it was rather a pointless waste of time to create a whole website dedicated to someone with a few silly beliefs that she has superpowers. However, given the direction her claims now seem to be going, I'm not so sure......Of course, if she never makes it big we'll never know if UncaYimmy's website had anything to do with it. In any case, I no longer consider it to be a bad idea.

I don't know what has happened at www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com that couldn't have happened here. Its major attribute is that it organizes her claims into an easy to view list. That will be a help for people when they first discover VfF. Any new information it provides could have been provided here. However some of that information seems to come from direct communication between UncaYimmy and VfF. Perhaps that communication exists because of his website.

I never felt his website was harmful. I just didn't see the point. The organization of her claims is a valid point, but even that could probably have been accomplished here. Moderation would have slowed it down, though.

I confess that I read every post and blog entry on his site.

Ward

 

[GzuzKryzt]

... (probably actually illegal ones) ...

Contact the proper authorities then.

 

[Uncayimmy]

I don't know what has happened at www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com that couldn't have happened here. Its major attribute is that it organizes her claims into an easy to view list. That will be a help for people when they first discover VfF. Any new information it provides could have been provided here. However some of that information seems to come from direct communication between UncaYimmy and VfF. Perhaps that communication exists because of his website.

Anita was contacting me privately long before I started my site. Where appropriate I have shared that information here and on StopVFF. You might recall how she publicly chastized me here for not responding to her private messages in a timely manner and how she publicly announced that she was "de-friending" me on Facebook.

The original VFF thread was closed on March 3rd. My site was started on March 28th. I remember the exact thing that Anita wrote on her website that made me pull the trigger:
"One FACT member said that based on what's been taking place a the JREF Forums he doesn't see why I keep going there because it doesn't do me any good, and I said that well, I just go there lately to make fun of the Skeptics there. To have fun with them."

I found that incredibly disrespectful to everyone here. She has since "clarified" what she "really" meant, but I don't believe her spin on it. Reading that quote is when I realized that this board was not adequate to address her. I figured that the new thread she had started would quickly be set to moderated status, and I was right. Moderated threads suck, but I understand why the JREF uses them.

As you pointed out, the big advantage of my site is organization. The first VFF thread is longer than a Harry Potter novel and has no organization. In 10 minutes on my site you can learn all you need to know about VFF. And if you want to discuss things more freely, you can do it.

 

[wardenclyffe]

I remember that you and VfF were privately communicating long before your website. I think your interview thread with her here was an outgrowth of that private communication. Correct me if I'm wrong on the timeline.

My point about your website's relationship to the private messages is this:

We all provoke her with our posts here and on your website. You probably provoke her the most since it's your site. I cannot know the full extent of your private communication with her, but I'm willing to bet it spikes after you or someone else posts some sort of public provocation.

It's harder to provoke her here because of the moderation. Your website allows for faster and more barbed posts, which increases the private communication, which increases the number of her claims. I can only imagine what you know that you are unwilling (for ethical reasons) to share.

So, although you had a private correspondance with her before your website, the moderated status of the threads was not conducive to continuing that relationship. I know the relationship has had its ups and downs both earlier (when she said she was going to unfriend you) and later after you created your website (when she kept trying to contact you over and over after you asked her not to). I assume she has to pay more attention to you when you are a webmaster than when you are one of many posters here. That puts you in a unique position with her---you, to a certain extent, control what the world knows of her.

I'm perfectly willing to be told I'm full of it.

Man, it's late. I gotta hit the sack,
Ward

 

[desertgal]

Contact the proper authorities then.

And then what? One alleged case is not sufficient for the authorities to act upon. It's simply a starting point, and the dissection of Anita's claims on UY's site does and will continue to provide a clearer picture to aid the authorities in conducting an investigation.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

And then what? One alleged case is not sufficient for the authorities to act upon. It's simply a starting point, and the dissection of Anita's claims on UY's site does and will continue to provide a clearer picture to aid the authorities in conducting an investigation.

The point is: If you believe an illegal action took place, the JREF Forum is not the first address to go to.