Nightline Debate: Does Satan Exist?

[kurious_kathy]

Really? There are numerous documented cases of people who were somehow never exposed to the Christian religion having an experience with Jesus?

Links please.

If you were in the church or fellowship with believers (like I am) you would meet people and hear these types of testimonies all the time. I could try to get a list of some together for you but if you are truly seeking this info you could discover them yourself as God's people are everywhere, and Jesus isn't hiding!

The first one I am thinking of is Ravi Zacharias. Have you heard of this man? He was suicidal when Jesus intervened in his life and save him. If you want to find him Ravi is easy to find as he has been traveling the globe sharing Christ with others ever since he got saved. His backround was he was raised in India in a different religion prior to his conversion to Christianity. Check out RZIM ministry if you want more info on his life and testimony. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjf5PaS7-SQ

How about Lee Strobels testimony? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AT_bMuFBfs

How about this one about a Messianic Rabbi who accepted Jesus? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdZP0UPoFVo

How about another one here of an ex devout Muslim who becomes a Christian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f88KtXJsmkI

Here's another one I found of a Ex-Hindu's testimony http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbTo...49A9AA7D&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=28

 

[Lucian]

I became a Christian because God saved me. He's not just words on a page, Christianity and Jesus are the truth and once Jesus makes himself known to a persson you know without any doubt the reality of his death and resurrection.

Jesus changed my life one night for good 4+ years ago and I'll never question him being there ever again! If you had heard the Saviors voice (like I have) you would know too. Jesus does what no one else or no other religion does, saves men (& women) from their sins. It's not religion or because a person is raised in a Christian home that makes them a Christian either, Jesus saves people from all tribes and nations. How do you explain that?

But he only saves women parenthetically.

 

[joobz]

I became a Christian because God saved me.

But you said that you had to believe first? So, God didn't save you, you simply believed he saved you.

It's not religion or because a person is raised in a Christian home that makes them a Christian either, Jesus saves people from all tribes and nations. How do you explain that?

But you said that you had to first believe in order to believe. Now you are saying some people are just saved without believing and then they start to beleive?

Why does god make such random selections of who is or is not worthy of saying? Why is your version of god so inconsistent?

 

[Cavemonster]

If you were in the church or fellowship with believers (like I am) you would meet people and hear these types of testimonies all the time. I could try to get a list of some together for you but if you are truly seeking this info you could discover them yourself as God's people are everywhere, and Jesus isn't hiding!

The first one I am thinking of is Ravi Zacharias. Have you heard of this man? He was suicidal when Jesus intervened in his life and save him. If you want to find him Ravi is easy to find as he has been traveling the globe sharing Christ with others ever since he got saved. His backround was he was raised in India in a different religion prior to his conversion to Christianity. Check out RZIM ministry if you want more info on his life and testimony. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjf5PaS7-SQ

How about Lee Strobels testimony? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AT_bMuFBfs

How about this one about a Messianic Rabbi who accepted Jesus? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdZP0UPoFVo

How about another one here of an ex devout Muslim who becomes a Christian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f88KtXJsmkI

Here's another one I found of a Ex-Hindu's testimony http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbTo...49A9AA7D&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=28

No, I didn't ask if any people had ever converted, of course people have converted.

I asked, if Jesus and God exist as entities separate from the human culture and religion, and texts, has anyone been saved by Jesus directly, without other humans telling them about Jesus.

In the two thousand years of Christianity, if Jesus actually acts independantly of Christian culture being spread, surely there is some record of someone in a small village that had never heard of the bible being directly converted by Jesus. right?

 

[Foster Zygote]

I became a Christian because God saved me. He's not just words on a page, Christianity and Jesus are the truth and once Jesus makes himself known to a persson you know without any doubt the reality of his death and resurrection.

Jesus changed my life one night for good 4+ years ago and I'll never question him being there ever again! If you had heard the Saviors voice (like I have) you would know too. Jesus does what no one else or no other religion does, saves men (& women) from their sins. It's not religion or because a person is raised in a Christian home that makes them a Christian either, Jesus saves people from all tribes and nations. How do you explain that?

I met a guy who was killing himself with drugs and alcohol but has been sober for nine years because he discovered Islam. He now has a good job, a loving wife and a couple of adorable children. How do you explain that?

 

[Lrrr]

I became a Christian because God saved me. He's not just words on a page, Christianity and Jesus are the truth and once Jesus makes himself known to a persson you know without any doubt the reality of his death and resurrection.

Jesus changed my life one night for good 4+ years ago and I'll never question him being there ever again! If you had heard the Saviors voice (like I have) you would know too. Jesus does what no one else or no other religion does, saves men (& women) from their sins. It's not religion or because a person is raised in a Christian home that makes them a Christian either, Jesus saves people from all tribes and nations. How do you explain that?

And you still didn't address the points even though you quoted them. You just spouted more Vogon poetry.

 

[Lrrr]

Yes I'm saying once you are saved you enter the war zone more because Satan doesn't like knowing he can't take you to hell with him anymore so he comes against you even harder than ever. Unsaved people do not seem to struggle like we do as Christians and I believe it's because Satan does everything he can to discredit the testimony of a believer. Satan can't steal our salvation, but he does everything he can to make our lives harder because he is furious. You would think he would get tired of accusing us day and night but he must get off on it or something.

I also know Satan can't do anything to me that God does not allow him to do so I find peace in knowing God is in control of my life. No matter what this world throws at me, God is for me not against me.

So why doesn't God just smite Satan and be done with it? Is it because without Satan, God doesn't have a fall guy/scapegoat to push people toward him? Without Satan, who would do all the evil in the world?

 

[TimCallahan]

Yes I'm saying once you are saved you enter the war zone more because Satan doesn't like knowing he can't take you to hell with him anymore so he comes against you even harder than ever. Unsaved people do not seem to struggle like we do as Christians and I believe it's because Satan does everything he can to discredit the testimony of a believer. Satan can't steal our salvation, but he does everything he can to make our lives harder because he is furious. You would think he would get tired of accusing us day and night but he must get off on it or something.

I also know Satan can't do anything to me that God does not allow him to do so I find peace in knowing God is in control of my life. No matter what this world throws at me, God is for me not against me.

I pretty much knew that this would be your answer, since I've heard it before, but I wanted to be sure. So, let's look at the logic of your argument. If you belive in God and Jesus, you suffer for it. In your words, you enter a war zone. However, God could, but does not, stop this. Your words are: "I also know Satan can't do anything to me that God does not allow him to do . . . ."

Frankly, any parent who allowed some fiend to torment their child, or any teacher who allowed a otrmentor to attack the children in his or her charge, would face criminal prosecution and would hadf the children in question taken from them. Yet you say God lets Satan torment his believers, up to a point.

Another flaw in your argument is this: I know a number of Christians - those who walk the walk, rather than just talk the talk - who are not involved in any of this demonic attack nonsense. So, given what you assert about believers entering a "war zone," are you saying these people aren't really Christians?

 

[kurious_kathy]

So why doesn't God just smite Satan and be done with it? Is it because without Satan, God doesn't have a fall guy/scapegoat to push people toward him? Without Satan, who would do all the evil in the world?

Seems to me fallen people do not need Satan to help them be evil. Don't you think God uses Satan to show us what we do not want to turn into?

 

[joobz]

Seems to me fallen people do not need Satan to help them be evil.

No. We just need god for that.


Isaiah 45:6-7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things"

 

[kurious_kathy]

I pretty much knew that this would be your answer, since I've heard it before, but I wanted to be sure. So, let's look at the logic of your argument. If you belive in God and Jesus, you suffer for it. In your words, you enter a war zone. However, God could, but does not, stop this. Your words are: "I also know Satan can't do anything to me that God does not allow him to do . . . ."

Frankly, any parent who allowed some fiend to torment their child, or any teacher who allowed a otrmentor to attack the children in his or her charge, would face criminal prosecution and would hadf the children in question taken from them. Yet you say God lets Satan torment his believers, up to a point.

Another flaw in your argument is this: I know a number of Christians - those who walk the walk, rather than just talk the talk - who are not involved in any of this demonic attack nonsense. So, given what you assert about believers entering a "war zone," are you saying these people aren't really Christians?

No, just because Christians talk about spiritual warfare does not mean they aren't Christians. Thats the trouble these days churches aren't teaching enough about it to prepare Christians how to counter Satans attacks so we do not stumble or fall away. It's about knowing who we are in Christ that makes the difference.

And if you were to support Voice of The Maryrs Ministry like I do you would see a lot more of the evil that happens to Christians to this day in other countries. People are still beaten and killed for their faith in Christ, why is that?

 

[joobz]

People are still beaten and killed for their faith in Christ, why is that?

People are still beaten and killed for X, why is that?

where X equals
1. Faith in Allah
2. Being homosexual
3. Being a specific race
4. Being a specific gender
5. Fighting against tyrrany
6. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time

 

[kurious_kathy]

But you said that you had to believe first? So, God didn't save you, you simply believed he saved you.


But you said that you had to first believe in order to believe. Now you are saying some people are just saved without believing and then they start to beleive?

Why does god make such random selections of who is or is not worthy of saying? Why is your version of god so inconsistent?

No I am saying I know exactly when God saved me as he intervened in a very powerful way in my life. One night I just remembered his love for me and he showed up. I guess the truth was there barried for a long time but God needed to create the right circumstances to make me see my need for him. He knows how to a humble us all when he wants to save us. I was humiliated and humbled at the same time. Sin had gotten me in a very bad place and God was the one who showed me what I did to myself to make me want to repent and have him in my life. Without him I was lost and on my way to hell, this I know without a shadow of a doubt. Now I am here to be a witness to the truth of the Gospel, if God can save me he can certainly save you.

God is not incosistent if you ask me, I just see how he meets people in different places and in different circumstances all the time. Nobody has the exact same testimony as another,why is that? I believe is because we are all unique to God and he loves us with an everlasting love! If you have a heart to know him he will find you!!

 

[kurious_kathy]

People are still beaten and killed for X, why is that?

where X equals
1. Faith in Allah
2. Being homosexual
3. Being a specific race
4. Being a specific gender
5. Fighting against tyrrany
6. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time

Well isn't the real question who is doing this killing and why? Murder is wrong and God condemns murder so why do people still want to kill eachother? Can't you see this is what the Bible calls sin? People are sinners and without God they keep doing what is evil.( I also see how Satan is behind this too filling mens hearts with evil).

If God was to show or convict all who murder others of just this one sin, wouldn't the world be a better place because these guys who naturally want to kill others would stop? I pray the Lord will open all murderers eyes to their sin so they can repent, in Jesus Name, Amen.

 

[joobz]

Well isn't the real question who is doing this killing and why?

So when Christians kill muslims, they aren't being christian? What about when they "Fagbash" or "lynch"?

Couldn't a Mulsim claim the same thing? That when a Muslim kills, he's not following Allah?

How am I to know which of you are being truthful and which are simply using No-true scottsman like post hoc arguments?

If God was to show or convict all who murder others of just this one sin, wouldn't the world be a better place because these guys who naturally want to kill others would stop? I pray the Lord will open all murderers eyes to their sin so they can repent, in Jesus Name, Amen.

there would be a lot less christians if god did that.

 

[Foster Zygote]

People are still beaten and killed for their faith in Christ, why is that?

People have been beaten and killed for being Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Jainist an so on. Why is that Kathy? I'm sure you will ignore this question because you really need to believe that the willingness of Christians to suffer for their beliefs validates those beliefs. But, as you have shown repeatedly, you refuse to acknowledge the fact that people are willing to suffer for beliefs other than Christianity. This is an example of that lack of thought that you are so proud of.

 

[joobz]

No I am saying I know exactly when God saved me as he intervened in a very powerful way in my life. One night I just remembered his love for me and he showed up.

So now you are changing the story or are you merely attempting to rephrase your argument to make it less of a tautology?

I guess the truth was there barried for a long time but God needed to create the right circumstances to make me see my need for him.

Wouldn't it be much simpler if god simply showed up and didn't need to play schoolgirl mindgames?

He knows how to a humble us all when he wants to save us. I was humiliated and humbled at the same time.

So god enjoys humiliating us? I didn't realize that Schadenfreude was a virtue.

Sin had gotten me in a very bad place and God was the one who showed me what I did to myself to make me want to repent and have him in my life. Without him I was lost and on my way to hell, this I know without a shadow of a doubt.

So you screwed up and you realized you made an error. Did you stop doing what was bad?
Why do you need god for that?

Now I am here to be a witness to the truth of the Gospel, if God can save me he can certainly save you.

Saving from what? I have not done anything warrenting eternal damnation.

God is not incosistent if you ask me, ...

You claimed that you must first beleive in order to see Jesus. Then you claim that others converted because they saw Jesus before they believed. THAT'S DIRECTLY CONTRADICTORY and inconsistent.

I believe is because we are all unique to God and he loves us with an everlasting love!

But he must first humiliate you before you can receive his love.

Is god's motto, Smell the glove?

 

[vIQleS]

I can't wait for mine! But I really can't make up my mind...hand or forehead? I mean, look at that debacle with that girl and all those tattooed stars on her face. No thanks.
And it might be harder for me to get a job with the MARK OF THE BEAST on my forehead.

But if I get it on my hand, I'll have to take my gloves off in the winter every single time I want to buy and sell. That could get to be a real pain. And it's certainly going to clash with my slave bracelet jewelry.

I just don't know. But I am sure it's gonna rock, either way! Bring it on!

Dude - I'm so there. I'm getting mine in my wrist - seems the most convenient.

My only concern is that RFID will be superceeded by something better and we'll all have to go in and get the new technology... and so on and so forth - eventually I'll be more chip than man.

 

[TimCallahan]

And if you were to support Voice of The Maryrs Ministry like I do you would see a lot more of the evil that happens to Christians to this day in other countries. People are still beaten and killed for their faith in Christ, why is that?

As noted by a number of others posting on this thread, people are being killed for espousing a number of faiths. One cease in point is that in the wake of the break up of Yugoslavia, the Eastern Orthodox Serbs murdered Roman Catholic Croats and Muslim Bosnians. All of these people shared a common language and ethnic ancestry. The were all Savs from the same region, all of whom spoke Serbo-Croatian. The only thing that really divides these people is religion.

I believe it was in the late 1980s that there were riots in Bombay between Hindus and Muslims, resulting in a lot of deaths.

In neither or these instances, nor in the Holocaust, nor in any other atrocity occuring either in history or in the present, do I see the need to invoke Satan. Thus, the fact that, "People are still beaten and killed for their faith in Christ," is scarcely a proof of either the existence of Satan or the reality of spiritual warfare.

 

[Ethnikos]

Ephesians 6:10 - 16. Let us just consider verses 11 and 12 for a start:
Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

So, do you believe that you are actually day-to-day locked in spiritual warfare with demons? Do you believe that the "world rulers of this present darkness" refers to actual national leaders of today, and, if so, which ones? Finally, if you do believe at least in the gist of the verses above, what is your evidence of spiritual warfare and demonic atttack?

Jesus being tempted in the wilderness would be an example of spiritual warfare being used against him. We are not equally attacked by Satan. Those who are spiritually neutral can be ignored. Satan is using his slaves in high positions to round up the apathetic for destruction. God sends in prophets among the sheep to guide them away from the snare, leaving them no excuse.