Deeper than primes

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It is curious how Doronshadmi and now Mosheklein want to believe so badly that a line is somehow atomic, totally indivisible, and, most importantly, not a collection of points.

Then again, Doronshadmi has claimed there are no more real numbers than there are rationals, so maybe a distorted concept for infinity is at the root. But I digress....

Now, given this totally indivisible line that is not a collection of points, Doron and Moshe are still able to divide into line segments and locate points on it.

Curious, no?
 
So you think wrong, because your verbal-only reasoning can't get the direct perception that enables it, in the first place.

Doronshadmi,

Why are you being so childish? "I know you are, but what am I?" Is your position really so vacuous that you have no defense other than these playground retorts?
 
Doron & Moshe... you bunch of plagiarites: http://ione.psy.uconn.edu/MC.pdf

(and that academic paper on direct perception makes more sense!)


I found that the other day but haven't had the chance to finish reading it yet. Been quite occupied today so haven’t had time for chit-chat. Just making my way thought the past 24hrs worth of posts to get back up to speed.
 
doronshadmi said:
No, it is always a linkage between Non-locality and Locality, no matter what dimension degrees of dimansions are used.
realpaladin said:
Does this make sense in your language? I do not understand it.
Sorry my typo mistake, the right one is:

"No, it is always a linkage between Non-locality and Locality, no matter what degrees of dimensions are used."

For example:

1/2 is the ratio between 1 and 2.

2/4 is the ratio between 2 and 4.

Pi/sqrt(2) is the ratio between pi and sqrt(2).

37/100 is the ratio between 37 and 100.

In general, no one of the values (x or y) of the ratio x/y has to be broken into pieces in order to define the result of x/y ratio, and no one of the results is made of broken pieces. It is all based on ratio, and this is exactly the reason of why 2/4 = 1/2.

Furthermore, if the result is based on the amount or size of elements that can cover another element, then the covered element is non-local w.r.t any element that covers it, if this element < the covered element.

No covered element and no element < the covered element are made of broken pieces.
 
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OK, excuse me for expressing myself with 'verbal thinking', but forum posting is a verbal activity. So far I've 'got' the basic generation of ONs - as the sum of the 'distinctions' of the partitions of a number. I've also 'got' the principle of OM - it requires 'direct perception'. 'Direct perception' involves no thought - it comes before thought and directs and organises thought. To 'get' OM, you must directly perceive a claimed truth ('fact'), or truths, presented by Doron - that, incidentally, is/are contradictory to classical maths and common-sense. IOW you must accept the 'fact' of OM and its axioms. If you do this, your perception will be changed and you will 'become an OM supporter' (Moshe's words) and see how it can change the world and enable all creatures to 'communicate smoothly' (hmm...Tower of Babel anyone?).

So grasping OM requires unthinking acceptance of a 'fact' or set of 'facts' as presented. Let's be honest what this means - it's asking for faith. It's the classic call to faith, in new clothes - as espoused by religions, snake-oil salesmen and carnival barkers.

[W.C. Fields]"Ordinary maths? No sirree, this is special maths, imbued with the multiple and manifest miracle never-before-seen distinctions of a number - this numerological wonder will make world peace, smooth communication between all creatures, cause moral, ethical, and cultural enlightenment across all boundaries, and cure lumbago. Yes, indeed sir, it is a Paradigm Shift, a renaissance in our ecosphere, a portent of Things To Come! Carry it with you at all times."[/W.C. Fields]

[W.C. Fields]"You want to see it work, watch it in action? Why, you only have to accept the fact and it is so - and your unthinking Direct Perception will guide you to the truth. Its implications? why you can think about its implications afterwards. Yes sir? You'd like an example sir? Some evidence? Why, er, no - bless you sir, no, we couldn't possibly do that - this is a commercial venture, with proprietary secrets - we can't just give it away, no sirree. Oh yes, indeedy, this here is a miracle, a true revelation - we can save the world... for a price. We'll target the children first."[/W.C. Fields]

They are saying you must have faith to understand it. Faith in a simple mathematical concept as a miracle cure for the worlds ills. But it's practical use is commercially sensitive, even though it could save the world.

[Dan Brown]He found it odd... odd that Doron and Moshe, for all their apparent superficial differences, were so similarly opaque and obscure in their evasiveness when it came to the real-world applications, the practicalities, the usage. They were as mysteriously alike as two peas in a pod when it came to excuses, misreadings, misunderstandings, misinterpretations, twistings, evasions, misdirections, misquotes, reposts, pointless links, and general slipperiness. Avowedly religious, claiming to conceal the commercial secrets of an apparently mundane mathematical technique that hid a faith-based but scientific solution that could change the world for the better (and presumably make them rich). Could it be a single, subtle, bi-faceted Mandelson-like entity, come to buy gullible souls, or worse, their very consciences ? something told him he was scratching the surface of a vast conspiracy, and this was only the beginning...[/Dan Brown]

It reads like a fantasy novel (perhaps a hint of L. Ron Hubbard ?) - except that common-sense jumps in to remind us that we should always prefer Cockup over Conspiracy, especially when the claims are absurd and unsupported by plausible evidence.

The truth is that it's the posting of a mathematical wonder cure for bad communication that has failed to communicate with the very people it's aimed at. 'Direct Perception' :rolleyes:

Year two - leave him alone Snodgrass - year two, who can tell me the difference between silence and a thought about silence? Yes, Kevin, that's right. Silence is no sound, and a thought about silence is a thought about no sound. Tomorrow we'll talk about ego and displacement. Now go and play.
 
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Doron & Moshe... you bunch of plagiarites: http://ione.psy.uconn.edu/MC.pdf

(and that academic paper on direct perception makes more sense!)

This paper has not reached the fundamentality of OM.

OM enables to demonstrate direct perception by the linkage between non-local and local building-blocks (that stands at the basis of any verbal-based bla bla bla ... description).

This paper is still based on verbal-only descriptions of direct perception and misses direct perception itself.

You still do not get the difference between silence and a thought about silence.

But generally you gradually exposed to the idea of direct perception (which is a good first-step) even if an idea (some thought) about direct perception is not direct perception.
 
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OK, excuse me for expressing myself with 'verbal thinking', but forum posting is a verbal activity.
Not at all.

Forum posting is nothing but some particular representation of direct perception.

You are not able to gather two thoughts into a one idea without the direct perception that stands at the basis of it.


For example : thought thought thought

As you see your verbal activity cannot be done without direct perception, which its simplest researchable form is at least Non-locality\Locality linkage.

dlorde said:
So grasping OM requires unthinking acceptance of a 'fact' or set of 'facts' as presented.
No,

Grasping Om requires self awareness of how direct perception is the basis of organized thoughts (no matter what these thoughts are).

By getting this simplest basis one enables to be aware of the finest relations between different thoughts, and develops his\her ability to re-form and organize them into long term agreement between Complex systems, which reinforces the linkage between Complexity and Simplicity.

dlorde said:
(hmm...Tower of Babel anyone?)
The Tower of Babel is a beautiful metaphor of a civilization that lost its ability to communicate on the basis of direct perception, and as a result it lost its ability for smooth communication between its individuals (where smooth communication is not based on verbal-only skills).

The people in that metaphor, that built The Tower of Babel , built it exactly as a result of their loss of communication on the basis of direct perception.

The myth of the Garden of Eden is exactly the same story.

In this story Adam and Eve eat from the tree of knowledge and lose their ability to get direct perception (known by the name "innocence") as the basis that organizes any knowledge (they became verbal-based creatures).

dlorde said:
Let's be honest what this means - it's asking for faith. It's the classic call to faith, in new clothes - as espoused by religions, snake-oil salesmen and carnival barkers.
No.

Faith is a state of mind of a man that has lost his ability to use direct perception in order to organize his thoughts.

As a result he gets anything only on the verbal level, and needs faith in order to find his way.
 
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You and Doron keep going on about this. The line is not made from points.

The line is not made, defined (and any other bla bla bla ... verbal description that you wish) by points, exactly because a line is the simplest representation of a non-local building-block, and a point is the simplest representation of a local-building block.

This notion is organized thoughts that are based on direct perception, where direct perception itself is not a thought.
 
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Forum posting is nothing but some particular representation of direct perception.
Excellent, in which case you should be able to provide us with a particular (forum) representation of the direct perception of some practical use of OM in specific calculations.

You are not able to gather two thoughts into a one idea without the direct perception that stands at the basis of it.

For example : thought thought thought

As you see your verbal activity cannot be done without direct perception, which its simplest researchable form is at least Non-locality\Locality linkage.
Indeed, and of course - all of which means I must be doing it all the time when perceiving anything - including OM, which I perceive as moonshine.

Faith is a state of mind of a man that has lost his ability to use direct perception in order to organize his thoughts.

As a result he gets anything only on the verbal level, and needs faith in order to find his way.
So faith is verbal reasoning, and non-thinking 'direct perception' of so-called 'facts' is not... yes, very Lewis Carroll.
 
And you asked what a type 2 infinity was?

Pull. Off. That. Sock. Now!


Good morning ! I wake up.

When I was a teenager I ask my self the following question: does the operation of addition + and multiplication * have a third operation say @ with satisfy to following roll:

x@y=y@x
x@(y@z)=(x@y)@z
x@(y*z)=(x@y)*(x*z)

after I solve this challenge positively I ask could it be that the traditional mathematics is a first step to another type of mathematics ?


Way do you need the diagonal method of Cantor to see the line clearly?

Moshe

I will not use the link that you share with me since I am looking to direct connection with Bill Gates. ( he can buy OM , since it is like windows but for the brain)
 
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Good morning ! I wake up.

When I was a teenager I ask my self the following question: does the operation of addition + and multiplication * have a third operation say @ with satisfy to following roll:

x@y=y@x
x@(y@z)=(x@y)@z
x@(y*z)=(x@y)*(x*z)


And did your teenager self recognize that the question has a trivial solution, or did you seek out something more convoluted?
 
Good morning ! I wake up.

When I was a teenager I ask my self the following question: does the operation of addition + and multiplication * have a third operation say @ with satisfy to following roll:

x@y=y@x
x@(y@z)=(x@y)@z
x@(y*z)=(x@y)*(x*z)

after I solve this challenge positively I ask could it be that the traditional mathematics is a first step to another type of mathematics ?


Way do you need the diagonal method of Cantor to see the line clearly?

Moshe

I will not use the link that you share with me since I really search now to a direct connection with Bill Gates. ( OM is like windows but for the brain)

Good morning Moshe.

This @ operation that you proposed so many (or so few) years ago, does it carry any particular attributes as an operation? Is it simply a place holder for some operation you hoped to find later in life, which I must surmise you found in OM? Now it seems to have an ordering dependence in your post. So I ask you again why are ordering distinctions exclude in OM or simply the ‘On’ calculations that form the basis of OM?


ETA:
Of course knowing 61 areas of math like the back of your hand, you do know that addition and multiplication are not different operations but just one is a simpler form of the other representing the same operation?
 
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(I know I am going to regret this....)

Why are you bringing up Turing machines?

Haven't to understand already that the only and really the only connection between OM and traditional mathematics is the symbols of the letters.
and even the space between the letters is different ?


Do you realize your response has nothing to do with my post? This is a technique perfected by Doronshadmi, but you can lay claim to being an expert at it as well.

You raised the issue of Turing machines -- yes, I do know quite a bit about them. Why did you raise the issue?

Your aside about spaces and letters was non-responsive to my question.
 
Do you realize your response has nothing to do with my post? This is a technique perfected by Doronshadmi, but you can lay claim to being an expert at it as well.

You raised the issue of Turing machines -- yes, I do know quite a bit about them. Why did you raise the issue?

Your aside about spaces and letters was non-responsive to my question.

ok. Becase with OM there is posibility to creat new type of computers!
 
Good morning Moshe.

This @ operation that you proposed so many (or so few) years ago, does it carry any particular attributes as an operation? Is it simply a place holder for some operation you hoped to find later in life, which I must surmise you found in OM? Now it seems to have an ordering dependence in your post. So I ask you again why are ordering distinctions exclude in OM or simply the ‘On’ calculations that form the basis of OM?


ETA:
Of course knowing 61 areas of math like the back of your hand, you do know that addition and multiplication are not different operations but just one is a simpler form of the other representing the same operation?

you can't get OM since you admite here that a line is made from points
no value to talk about distiction with you


@ have no connection with OM

infact I discover that there is infinit number of operators @1, @2, @3, @4...
were :

@1 = + ( x+y)
@2= * (x*y)
@3 = @ ( x^.. let's wait to jsfisher answer)
 
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you can't get OM since you admite here that a line is made from points
no value to talk about distiction with you


@ have no connection with OM

infact i discovert that there is @1, @2, @3, ...

were @1 = +
@2= *

and @3 is the solution to my original problem ( le'ts wait to jsfisher answer)

You misconstrue agian, I have never said (or admitted as you put it) that a line or line segment is made from points, simply that it is defined by points and that is a major distinction. A distiction that most elemetry grade geometry students are able to understand within the first lecture. I have specifically said (as others have) that a line segment is made of other less expansive line segments. Have you some other way of defining a line segment then with points or other less expansive line segments? I would certainly be glad to hear it. I apologize that my pervious post surmised some association of your @ operation with OM. I should have asked first, entirely my fault. I’m also sorry to say that I am still unclear about distinctions in OM, as it appears to be simply a very limited form or set of distinctions (focusing only on associative, or as you put it parallel distinctions) such that certain specific distinctions are excluded, at least in the calculations of “On“s. I am also unsure as to how what should be a common understanding between us, that you understand 61 forms of math, hopefully geometry being one of them, somehow precludes you from discussing distinctions with me, simply because you consider OM to be a 62nd from of math. If your are not comfortable discussing them with me in that 62nd framework, then we can just start with distinctions in general and work from there. Alternatively, simply discussing your @ operation as you must feel it relevant to OM in some way or I doubt you would be bringing it up. Unless of course you are simply inferring that you were looking for your own paradigm shift, new operation, new math or whatever but found something else in OM.

The latter part of you post seems to indicate your @ operation as simply multiplication or @2 as in X @2 simply means X+X or X*2. So I’m not sure how this simplifies anything or does anything different then current multiplication notation representing a simpler form of some ‘n’ series of additions. Meaning where n=1; Xn = X, where n=2; Xn= X+X, where n=3; Xn = X+X+X so on and so forth. Basically Xn or X@n is just X*n.

I am not sure if Doron precisely explained the nature of this forum to you, but it is one primarily populated by skeptics, so expect to have assertions you make responded to with, well, skepticism.

I don’t know if you know much about the United States, but one of our states, Missouri, is called “The Show Me State“. You could consider this the show me forum, so please show me.
 
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Sorry my typo mistake, the right one is:

"No, it is always a linkage between Non-locality and Locality, no matter what degrees of dimensions are used."

For example:

1/2 is the ratio between 1 and 2.

2/4 is the ratio between 2 and 4.

Pi/sqrt(2) is the ratio between pi and sqrt(2).

37/100 is the ratio between 37 and 100.

In general, no one of the values (x or y) of the ratio x/y has to be broken into pieces in order to define the result of x/y ratio, and no one of the results is made of broken pieces. It is all based on ratio, and this is exactly the reason of why 2/4 = 1/2.

Furthermore, if the result is based on the amount or size of elements that can cover another element, then the covered element is non-local w.r.t any element that covers it, if this element < the covered element.

No covered element and no element < the covered element are made of broken pieces.

Good! Btw. You should kick Moshe because he stated that the symbols you are using this are nonsense in OM.

So, you are saying that if I had a 1-dim element and I do that math and it turns out to be 1/2 1-dim element, then I did not have a 1-dim element to begin with?
 
A line is not composed of points it contains points. This is similar I guess to an interval which is not composed of numbers, it contains numbers. By the way speaking of intervals, Moshe: do you share the same thinking as Doron that there is no immediate successor to [3,5)?
 
This paper has not reached the fundamentality of OM.
That 7-page thingy of yours?

OM enables to demonstrate direct perception by the linkage between non-local and local building-blocks (that stands at the basis of any verbal-based bla bla bla ... description).
It does nothing of the sort.


You still do not get the difference between silence and a thought about silence.

No, you do not get that the thought/concept of silence is enough to communicate to others that it is meant 'that moment of no sound'.

That is what communication does.

Do not blame your tool, blame the craftsman. (Man, I would have loved to write "Do not blame the tool, tool.", but that would have gotten me a mod-action and would have been lost on Doron anyway).
 
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