Why a one-way Crush down is not possible

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Tony Szamboti said:
It sounds like you don't think the core floor slabs had some form of steel reinforcement in them.

The reinforcement was used to minimize cracking and all of the slabs would have had some form of it in them.
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Morning Tony. Have you got a good theory as to why someone would want to pulverize all the concrete?
Have you ever heard of this technique being used in actual controlled demolitions before? I haven't.

btw, you still haven't explained why or how nanothermite/thermate would make a quieter explosion than other high explosives, even though you postulated that concept a couple weeks ago. Given it any further thought?
 
Tony Szamboti said:
It sounds like you don't think the core floor slabs had some form of steel reinforcement in them.
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The confusion is in what you're referring to as the "core floor slab." Which I presume to involve any inhabitable floor space required to access the utilities which utilized the core region of the towers (IE elevators, electrical equipment, plumbing, etc).

bill seems to be implying that the mesh used in the reinforcement of the concrete should have been in relatively pristine condition following the collapse if I go by his other absurdity with claiming the core columns magically disappearing...
 
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Grizzly Bear said:
The confusion is in what you're referring to as the "core floor slab." Which I presume to involve any inhabitable floor space required to access the utilities which utilized the core region of the towers (IE elevators, electrical equipment, plumbing, etc).

bill seems to be implying that the mesh used in the reinforcement of the concrete should have been in relatively pristine condition following the collapse if I go by his other absurdity with claiming the core columns magically disappearing...
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I don't see any reason it would have been in good condition. However, you have to admit that about 3/4 of a square mile is one heckuva lot of wire mesh and from the photos I have seen it isn't ubiquitous at all.

The use of the term wire mesh is relatively misleading as the welded wire fabric was actually made from high strength .230" diameter steel rod in a 4" x 10" grid pattern.
 
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alienentity said:
Morning Tony. Have you got a good theory as to why someone would want to pulverize all the concrete?
Have you ever heard of this technique being used in actual controlled demolitions before? I haven't.

btw, you still haven't explained why or how nanothermite/thermate would make a quieter explosion than other high explosives, even though you postulated that concept a couple weeks ago. Given it any further thought?
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I don't think all of the concrete was pulverized to a fine dust if that is what you are saying. One can calculate that about 15% of the concrete was actually pulverized into dust by knowing it's percentage by weight in the dust, the estimated amount of concrete in the towers and the estimated amount of gypsum and SFRM in the towers. Most of the dust was gypsum and SFRM.

However, most of the concrete was broken up pretty well into smaller pieces as we don't see many large chunks. Certainly this could have been done by impact especially since the above floors were moving faster than those below and there was a continuous pounding being taken once the collapses were well underway. However, when one looks at the six hundred foot diameter ball of dust around the South Tower, when it has only collapsed about twenty floors down, it does make you wonder.

I do not think it is necessary to break up floors in a controlled demolition.

As for lower noise level explosives being possible, the brisance and gas pressure of nanothermites used as explosives are tailorable by the sizing of the particles and the amount of organics used to generate gas pressure. Finally, it is the gas pressure velocity and it's range which causes the sound levels and the distance it travels.

A report from The 221st National Meeting of the American Chemical Society held during April 2001 in San Diego made the below comment:

At this point in time, all of the military services and some DOE and academic laboratories have active R&D programs aimed at exploiting the unique properties of nanomaterials that have potential to be used in energetic formulations for advanced explosives. Nanoenergetics hold promise as useful ingredients for the thermobaric (TBX) and TBX-like weapons, particularly due to their high degree of tailorability with regards to energy release and impulse management. The feature of “impulse management” may be significant. It is possible that formulations may be chosen to have just sufficient percussive effect to achieve the desired fragmentation while minimizing the noise level.
 
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Tony Szamboti said:
It sounds like you don't think the core floor slabs had some form of steel reinforcement in them.

The reinforcement was used to minimize cracking and all of the slabs would have had some form of it in them.
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sounds like you have no proof and overestimate how large these slabs were
 
Tony Szamboti said:
I don't think all of the concrete was pulverized to a fine dust if that is what you are saying. One can calculate that about 15% of the concrete was actually pulverized into dust by knowing it's percentage by weight in the dust, the estimated amount of concrete in the towers and the estimated amount of gypsum and SFRM in the towers. Most of the dust was gypsum and SFRM.

However, most of the concrete was broken up pretty well into smaller pieces as we don't see many large chunks. Certainly this could have been done by impact especially since the above floors were moving faster than those below and there was a continuous pounding being taken once the collapses were well underway. However, when one looks at the six hundred foot diameter ball of dust around the South Tower, when it has only collapsed about twenty floors down, it does make you wonder.

I do not think it is necessary to break up floors in a controlled demolition.

As for lower noise level explosives being possible, the brisance and gas pressure of nanothermites used as explosives are tailorable by the sizing of the particles and the amount of organics used to generate gas pressure. Finally, it is the gas pressure velocity and it's range which causes the sound levels and the distance it travels.

A report from The 221st National Meeting of the American Chemical Society held during April 2001 in San Diego made the below comment:

At this point in time, all of the military services and some DOE and academic laboratories have active R&D programs aimed at exploiting the unique properties of nanomaterials that have potential to be used in energetic formulations for advanced explosives. Nanoenergetics hold promise as useful ingredients for the thermobaric (TBX) and TBX-like weapons, particularly due to their high degree of tailorability with regards to energy release and impulse management. The feature of “impulse management” may be significant. It is possible that formulations may be chosen to have just sufficient percussive effect to achieve the desired fragmentation while minimizing the noise level.
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Are you accusing the military?

Please show an exampe of thermite of any kind being used in a cd.
 
funk de fino said:
sounds like you have no proof and overestimate how large these slabs were
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It is hard to understand what you are saying here but it sounds like you might be trying to say that the overall area of the welded wire fabric was less than 3/4 of a square mile.

Even without the core floor slabs it is still about 1/2 of a square mile, and significantly larger than the 1/8th of a square mile Bill was originally thinking.
 
funk de fino said:
Are you accusing the military?

Please show an exampe of thermite of any kind being used in a cd.
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I am not accusing the military for one minute. If you read the quote it is obvious that more than military people would have had access to these materials.

All a CD needs is explosives placed in the right spots and gravity does the rest. There is no rule as to what explosive it has to be.
 
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Tony Szamboti said:
As for lower noise level explosives being possible, the brisance and gas pressure of nanothermites used as explosives are tailorable by the sizing of the particles and the amount of organics used to generate gas pressure. Finally, it is the gas pressure velocity and it's range which causes the sound levels and the distance it travels.

A report from The 221st National Meeting of the American Chemical Society held during April 2001 in San Diego made the below comment:

At this point in time, all of the military services and some DOE and academic laboratories have active R&D programs aimed at exploiting the unique properties of nanomaterials that have potential to be used in energetic formulations for advanced explosives. Nanoenergetics hold promise as useful ingredients for the thermobaric (TBX) and TBX-like weapons, particularly due to their high degree of tailorability with regards to energy release and impulse management. The feature of “impulse management” may be significant. It is possible that formulations may be chosen to have just sufficient percussive effect to achieve the desired fragmentation while minimizing the noise level.
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The paper you cite also explicitly states that these materials in a research and development phase as of the time of the article's publication.

The only other application I've been made aware of for such materials is small scale welding, and none of those uses brings it to the level of capability for bringing down a building.

And every known observation of the collapses I've seen rules out any "controlled" measure. The last thing on my list is a CD for that reason.
 
Tony Szamboti said:
It is hard to understand what you are saying here but it sounds like you might be trying to say that the overall area of the welded wire fabric was less than 3/4 of a square mile.

Even without the core floor slabs it is still about 1/2 of a square mile, and significantly larger than the 1/8th of a square mile Bill was originally thinking.
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Tony you were saying that you thought about 15% of the concrete was pulverised. Frank Greening calculated for 120,000 tons of dust spread over Manhatten. Gypsum dust is light so most of that must have been concrrete dust.
Additionally there seems to be very little concrete in the rubble- broken or otherwise. Given this do you think we should see masses os wire mesh reinforcing in the rubble ? There is nothing in the official dynamic to account for it NOT being there surely ?
 
bill smith said:
Tony you were saying that you thought about 15% of the concrete was pulverised. Frank Greening calculated for 120,000 tons of dust spread over Manhatten. Gypsum dust is light so most of that must have been concrrete dust.
Additionally there seems to be very little concrete in the rubble- broken or otherwise. Given this do you think we should see masses os wire mesh reinforcing in the rubble ? There is nothing in the official dynamic to account for it NOT being there surely ?
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I looked at the concrete in the dust issue a couple of years ago with Gregory Urich and Gregory Jenkins. Using percentage by weight of the concrete in the dust, and the estimated amount of it in the towers relative to the other constituents in the dust, showed it was about 15% of the concrete which was actually pulverized to dust.

I agree that it seems strange that we don't see a lot more of the welded wire fabric in the rubble. I don't know what to really think about it but can say that your speculation cannot be ruled out due to whether or not it is a standard thing to do in a CD. If the collapses of the towers were due to controlled demolitions they were not standard CDs to begin with.
 
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Tony Szamboti said:
I looked at the concrete in the dust issue a couple of years ago with Gregory Urich and Gregory Jenkins. Using percentage by weight of the concrete in the dust, and the estimated amount of it in the towers relative to the other constituents in the dust, showed it was about 15% of the concrete which was actually pulverized to dust.

I agree that it seems strange that we don't see a lot more of the welded wire fabric in the rubble. I don't know what to really think about it but can say that your speculation cannot be ruled out due to whether or not it is a standard thing to do in a CD. If the collapses of the towers were due to controlled demolitions they were not standard CDs to begin with.
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Less the 15% you estimate that would leave enough concrete in he rubble to make a single homogenous block of concrete one acre in area and about 10 feet tall. Break that up into the rockery sized pieces I have seen and you should have absolute mountains of the stuff. I see no trace of quantities like this in any photograph I have seen.
 
Bill,
Wouldn't the sublevels have been sufficient to contain the broken up "10' of homogenous concrete" ?
 
Humanzee said:
Bill,
Wouldn't the sublevels have been sufficient to contain the broken up "10' of homogenous concrete" ?
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Right. While it was probably more like the equivalent of 30 feet of homogenous concrete x one acre in area, most of the broken up concrete probably did go into the sub-levels, which were six stories or about 72 feet deep.

As there was 4 inches of concrete on each floor, multiplying that by 110 gives a height of 440 inches x one acre in area. Taking 15% from 440 leaves 374 inches or about 31 feet.
 
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bill smith said:
In WTC2 he damage to he basement levels was relatively minor with goods still on the shelves in the basement mall in some cases.Is here any special reason we should imagine that the basement levels of WTC1 should have been more vulnerable ?.
http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/DEW/StarWarsBeam4.html
http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/DEW/dewpics/Image311.jpg
http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/DEW/dewpics/Image312.jpg
This photo was taken inside the mall. The store sign "innovation" is visible on the left.
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Good point.
 
bill smith said:
In WTC2 he damage to he basement levels was relatively minor with goods still on the shelves in the basement mall in some cases.Is here any special reason we should imagine that the basement levels of WTC1 should have been more vulnerable ?.


http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/DEW/dewpics/Image311.jpg
http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/DEW/dewpics/Image312.jpg
This photo was taken inside the mall. The store sign "innovation" is visible on the left.
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So now you're suggesting it's suspicious that they weren't totally destroyed?:covereyes
 
The mall wasn't under the towers, it was under the plaza and wtc 4 & 5. Innovation luggage was close to 300 ft from WTC2.

WTCmall.png
 
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Thx phunk. I would think the basement levels of WTC1 would be more vulnerable as they were underneath the falling building.
Thx Tony for the info. 1 acre at 31'. Thats alot of concrete.
 
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