Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

Status
Not open for further replies.
so great new book out there called "Jesus Interrupted" by Bart. Ehrman. It's not an atheist view of the NT ... it's an honest view of ALL the contridictions and why they are there. It puts a human face and timeline on when each book was written, some were before others, and why for instance Matthew and Paul disagree.

The focus is on how this very flawed book, still can show the basic belief of what Jesus was saying. But, only by accepting that the book was written over a vast time frame and by very different people, and not basing our belief or faith on a flawed work (if you have to prove the Bible is perfect you will so not be able to do so), but basing your belief on something beyond a human written book with biases... well just for the fundies out there...this would be a lovely book for them to read. Not as an attack on Christianity, but as actually a defense. By blindly accepting the Bible as Gods unerring truth, Christians lose before they are out of the starting gate. Fundies want to know why people get turned off by your sad attempts to convert them? You rely too much on the Bible. as Julia Sweeney once said "have you READ it?"
 
So you are now saying that this beloved apostle {John} was just a child
No I'm not, I said there is a good chance the youngest apostle (John) was a teenager when he traveled with Jesus. And after a long lifetime of probable reflection of his times with the greatest man in history he became the bishop of the Greek speaking city of Ephesus and he then wrote the most spiritual of all the gospels in his old age. But even being the most spiritual gospel he still gave highly detailed geographical information and other detailed information about the area Jesus preached in.

ETA: The book sited in post #1 gives 59 highly detailed facts reported in the Gospel of John. Also the following site does. Here are 15 of them:

1. Archaeology confirms the use of stone water jars in New Testament times (John 2:6).

2. Given the early Christian tendency towards asceticism, the wine miracle is an unlikely invention (John 2:8).

3. Archaeology confirms the proper place of Jacob's Well (John 4:6).

4. Josephus (Wars of the Jews 2.232) confirms there was significant hostility between Jews and Samaritans during Jesus' time (John 4:9).

5. "Come down" accurately describes the topography of western Galilee. (There=s a significant elevation drop from Cana to Capernaum.) (John 4:46, 49, 51).11

6. "Went up" accurately describes the ascent to Jerusalem (5:1).

7. Archaeology confirms the proper location and description of the five colonnades at the pool of Bethesda (John 5:2). (Excavations between 1914 and
1938 uncovered that pool and found it to be just as John described it. Since that structure did not exist after the Romans destroyed the city in A.D. 70, it=s unlikely any later non-eyewitness could have described it in such vivid detail. Moreover, John says that this structure Ais in Jerusalem,@ implying that he=s writing before 70.)

8. Jesus' own testimony being invalid without the Father is an unlikely Christian invention (5:31); a later redactor would be eager to highlight Jesus= divinity and would probably make his witness self-authenticating.

9. The crowds wanting to make Jesus king reflects the well-known nationalist fervor of early first-century Israel (6:15).

10. Sudden and severe squalls are common on the Sea of Galilee (6:18).

11._?Christ's command to eat his flesh and drink his blood would not be made up (6:53).

12. The rejection of Jesus by many of his disciples is also an unlikely invention (6:66).

13. The two predominant opinions of Jesus, one that Jesus was a Agood man@ and the other that he Adeceives people,@ would not be the two choices John would have made up (7:12); a later Christian writer would have probably inserted the opinion that Jesus was God.

14. The charge of Jesus being demon-possessed is an unlikely invention (7:20).

15. The use of ASamaritan@ to slander Jesus befits the hostility between Jews and Samaritans (8:48).

The other 44 detailed facts from the Gospel of John can be seen on this site:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=51643
 
Last edited:
so great new book out there called "Jesus Interrupted" by Bart. Ehrman. It's not an atheist view of the NT ... it's an honest view of ALL the contridictions and why they are there.

There is also a book that talks of the fallacies of Bart Ehrman's book "Misquoting Jesus". It's called:

Misquoting Truth: A Guide to the Fallacies of Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus" (Paperback)
by Timothy Paul Jones

http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Truth-Guide-Fallacies-Ehrmans/dp/0830834478
 
Last edited:
The other 44 detailed facts from the Gospel of John can be seen on this site:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=51643
How the hell are they FACTS, because they are in the bible, a book written by men and not a so-called god. One book does not make evidence.

Paul

:) :) :)

There are The Seven Books of Harry Potter, more written about him then Jesus in the Bible, so then with your logic Harry Potter is real.
 
Last edited:
No I'm not, I said there is a good chance the youngest apostle (John) was a teenager when he traveled with Jesus.
In an attempt to explain away the strange line of "laying at the breast", you claim that John was an innocent youth who viewed Jesus as a brother. Regardless of age, such an argument works if we assume the person in question has the mentality of a prebuescent child. If The apostle at his breast is an older teenager, than we are back to the clearly questionable sexual nature of the lying at breast discription.

So, we are left with one thing, if you are right, and John was a child (teenager) who viewed Jesus as a brother and this John wrote the gospel, than the gospel loses all credibility. Do you really trust a person to remember truthfully the chidish fantasies they hold?

Further, if you are right and John was a teenager, then that makes Jesus even more creepy. Jesus convinced John and James to leave their father to follow him. If John was an innocent kid, than it makes the story of John following Jesus a child abduction case.



And after a long lifetime of probable reflection of his times with the greatest man in history he became the bishop of the Greek speaking city of Ephesus and he then wrote the most spiritual of all the gospels in his old age.
And you trust a person to remember their child hood beliefs accurately? Like I said, you just gave the perfect reason why the Gospel of John (if it had been written by JOhn) isn't reliable as a first hand account.
But even being the most spiritual gospel he still gave highly detailed geographical information and other detailed information about the area Jesus preached in.
So DOC, instead of these non sequitors, why not explain which it is:

Was John an innocent child who idolized jesus, and therefore unreliable when it comes to the magical accounts?
or was he a young man, and possibly the lover of Jesus?
 
ETA: The book sited in post #1 gives 59 highly detailed facts reported in the Gospel of John. Also the following site does. Here are 15 of them:


Let us see how they stack up...
(n.b. When I say "proves nothing", I mean that the "fact" proves nothing in regards to the accuracy of the Jesus story. Mostly this applies to irrelevant details. I've given examples of other works of myth and fiction that have similar accuracies. Such accuracies do not prove Harry Potter is real. Implying that they prove Jesus is real makes them non-sequiturs.)



1. Archaeology confirms the use of stone water jars in New Testament times (John 2:6).

Proves nothing. The Iliad has historically accurate details.


2. Given the early Christian tendency towards asceticism, the wine miracle is an unlikely invention (John 2:8).

Opinion, not fact. The word "unlikely" gives it away.


3. Archaeology confirms the proper place of Jacob's Well (John 4:6).

Proves nothing. Rome and Juliet has historically accurate details.


4. Josephus (Wars of the Jews 2.232) confirms there was significant hostility between Jews and Samaritans during Jesus' time (John 4:9).

Proves nothing. Harry Potter has historically accurate details.


5. "Come down" accurately describes the topography of western Galilee. (There's a significant elevation drop from Cana to Capernaum.) (John 4:46, 49, 51)

Proves nothing. The Count of Monte Cristo has geographically accurate details.


6. "Went up" accurately describes the ascent to Jerusalem (5:1).

Proves nothing. The Odyssey has geographically accurate details.


7. Archaeology confirms the proper location and description of the five colonnades at the pool of Bethesda (John 5:2). (Excavations between 1914 and 1938 uncovered that pool and found it to be just as John described it. Since that structure did not exist after the Romans destroyed the city in A.D. 70, it's unlikely any later non-eyewitness could have described it in such vivid detail. Moreover, John says that this structure is in Jerusalem,@ implying that he's writing before 70.)

Proves nothing. The stories of the Greek Gods have geographically accurate details. Also opinion, not fact. Note all the "unlikely"s floating around.


8. Jesus' own testimony being invalid without the Father is an unlikely Christian invention (5:31); a later redactor would be eager to highlight Jesus' divinity and would probably make his witness self-authenticating.

Opinion, not fact. "Unlikely"? "Probably"?


9. The crowds wanting to make Jesus king reflects the well-known nationalist fervor of early first-century Israel (6:15).

Proves nothing. Les Miserables reflects on the political situation of it's setting, too.


10. Sudden and severe squalls are common on the Sea of Galilee (6:18).

Proves nothing.


11.Christ's command to eat his flesh and drink his blood would not be made up (6:53).

Opinion.


12. The rejection of Jesus by many of his disciples is also an unlikely invention (6:66).

Opinion.


13. The two predominant opinions of Jesus, one that 'Jesus was a good man' and the other that he 'deceives people,' would not be the two choices John would have made up (7:12); a later Christian writer would have probably inserted the opinion that Jesus was God.

Opinion. Resting on assumption (you have not yet proven that John wrote the gospel bearing his name).


14. The charge of Jesus being demon-possessed is an unlikely invention (7:20).

Opinion.


15. The use of 'Samaritan' to slander Jesus befits the hostility between Jews and Samaritans (8:48).

Proves nothing. Gone with the Wind has details befitting the hostility between the Confederates and the Union.



The other 44 detailed facts from the Gospel of John can be seen on this site:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=51643


Of the 15 so-called "facts" you've listed,
None prove a thing about the accuracy of events in the New Testament.
9 are non-sequiturs.
5 are merely opinion.
1 is both an opinion and a non-sequitur.


The other 44 are of the same vein.
 
ETA: The book sited in post #1 gives 59 highly detailed facts reported in the Gospel of John. Also the following site does. Here are 15 of them:

1. Archaeology confirms the use of stone water jars in New Testament times (John 2:6).

2. Given the early Christian tendency towards asceticism, the wine miracle is an unlikely invention (John 2:8).

3. Archaeology confirms the proper place of Jacob's Well (John 4:6).

4. Josephus (Wars of the Jews 2.232) confirms there was significant hostility between Jews and Samaritans during Jesus' time (John 4:9).

5. "Come down" accurately describes the topography of western Galilee. (There=s a significant elevation drop from Cana to Capernaum.) (John 4:46, 49, 51).11

6. "Went up" accurately describes the ascent to Jerusalem (5:1).

7. Archaeology confirms the proper location and description of the five colonnades at the pool of Bethesda (John 5:2). (Excavations between 1914 and
1938 uncovered that pool and found it to be just as John described it. Since that structure did not exist after the Romans destroyed the city in A.D. 70, it=s unlikely any later non-eyewitness could have described it in such vivid detail. Moreover, John says that this structure Ais in Jerusalem,@ implying that he=s writing before 70.)

8. Jesus' own testimony being invalid without the Father is an unlikely Christian invention (5:31); a later redactor would be eager to highlight Jesus= divinity and would probably make his witness self-authenticating.

9. The crowds wanting to make Jesus king reflects the well-known nationalist fervor of early first-century Israel (6:15).

10. Sudden and severe squalls are common on the Sea of Galilee (6:18).

11._?Christ's command to eat his flesh and drink his blood would not be made up (6:53).

12. The rejection of Jesus by many of his disciples is also an unlikely invention (6:66).

13. The two predominant opinions of Jesus, one that Jesus was a Agood man@ and the other that he Adeceives people,@ would not be the two choices John would have made up (7:12); a later Christian writer would have probably inserted the opinion that Jesus was God.

14. The charge of Jesus being demon-possessed is an unlikely invention (7:20).

15. The use of ASamaritan@ to slander Jesus befits the hostility between Jews and Samaritans (8:48).

The other 44 detailed facts from the Gospel of John can be seen on this site:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=51643

Big whoop. Anybody who lived in the area - and whoever the author of the Gospel of John was, he most likely lived in the area - would be aware of the geography of the surrounding region.

I know two authors who write murder mysteries set in San Antonio, Texas, and their descriptions of the locale are often very accurate. That doesn't mean that one event depicted in their books ever really took place.

Why do you think knowing the geography of Palestine proves anything about the accuracy of the events described in the Bible?

WHY would Jesus' command to eat his flesh and drink his blood not be made up? Such symbolic rituals were (and are) common in cultic ceremonies.

WHY would the charge of Jesus' being demon-possessed be "an unlikely invention"? Superstitious people are always attributing things they cannot understand to a supernatural cause. Look at all the idiots who say the Harry Potter books promote satanism and wizardry.

Are you really as ignorant of the world as your posts make you look?
 
No I'm not, I said there is a good chance the youngest apostle (John) was a teenager when he traveled with Jesus.
So Jesus was not only gay but a child molester?

1. Archaeology confirms the use of stone water jars in New Testament times (John 2:6).
As they had done for several hundred years and kept right on doing for several more hundred years. The only thing that it proves is that the writers lived within a few centuries of Jesus, but we already knew that.

2. Given the early Christian tendency towards asceticism, the wine miracle is an unlikely invention (John 2:8).

No. Simply, no.

a) First of all, the wine was commonplace and not associated with luxury.

b) Christians did not invent the rite, the ritual existed in many older traditions and the Christian adopted it.

c) Orgininally the tradition was about the 'wine of David' not the blood of the Christ, it is a later explanation that Christian made up to justify their tradition. In both case, only wine would have worked, the metaphor relying on the dark-red colour of the wine, reminiscent of that of blood. Suggesting it could be replaced by water is just plain silly.



3. Archaeology confirms the proper place of Jacob's Well (John 4:6).

WHAT?
The only location we have about the well in the new testament is that it is around the city of Tell Balata. Any well within a few miles of the city would have fit the description just as well.

In fact, this location is not very logical. We know that Jesus rested there on his way to the city. It seems strange to rest while within less than a hundred yards of your destination.

The well was already a Jewish tradition. People were familiar with it. If somebody write a story about visiting Paris and mention the Eiffel tower, it's hardly a proof of great insight. Everyone knows that the Eiffel tower is in Paris, just like every Jews knew about the well of Jacob in Tell Balata.


4. Josephus (Wars of the Jews 2.232) confirms there was significant hostility between Jews and Samaritans during Jesus' time (John 4:9).

And a few centuries before. And after. cf point 1.


5. "Come down" accurately describes the topography of western Galilee. (There=s a significant elevation drop from Cana to Capernaum.) (John 4:46, 49, 51).11

Ok; so the writer knew about the basic topology of the region.

6. "Went up" accurately describes the ascent to Jerusalem (5:1).

Same thing, except that most Jews should be familiar with the topography of Jerusalem. It was their holy city after all. And one that had been 'in the news' just a few years ago.


7. Archaeology confirms the proper location and description of the five colonnades at the pool of Bethesda (John 5:2). (Excavations between 1914 and
1938 uncovered that pool and found it to be just as John described it. Since that structure did not exist after the Romans destroyed the city in A.D. 70, it=s unlikely any later non-eyewitness could have described it in such vivid detail. Moreover, John says that this structure Ais in Jerusalem,@ implying that he=s writing before 70.)

Actually... no it's the exact other way around:
Archaeologically, the reference to five porticos is not yet fully understood, as the only applicable structure found in the pools themselves has three porticos rather than five. The closest alternative match is to the five colonnades of the asclepieion itself[23]; Origen, writing in the 3rd century, claims to have seen the five porticos, but since the site was by then Hadrian's construction, this must refer to the 2nd century version of the Asclepieion[13], requiring the authorship of the Gospel of John to be dated after 130.


8. Jesus' own testimony being invalid without the Father is an unlikely Christian invention (5:31); a later redactor would be eager to highlight Jesus= divinity and would probably make his witness self-authenticating.

That's retarded apologetics. When you ask somebody to prove his allegations, by definition, his own testimony is not enough.


9. The crowds wanting to make Jesus king reflects the well-known nationalist fervor of early first-century Israel (6:15).

a) When, exactly, does the crowd want to make him king? I remember it being an accusation, not to have actually happened.
b) It only prove that the writer was familiar with the 1st century situation in the region. Considering they just had fought a war about it, most people in the Eastern Mediterranean would be.
It's about as impressive as an American today being aware of the occupation of Iraq.

10. Sudden and severe squalls are common on the Sea of Galilee (6:18).

As in the Eastern Mediterranean or just about any body of water in the region. It's not something so unique to the Sea of Galilee that the writers would not have been familiar with the concept.


11._?Christ's command to eat his flesh and drink his blood would not be made up (6:53).

Except that it was. By pagans. A long time before Christ.

12. The rejection of Jesus by many of his disciples is also an unlikely invention (6:66).

Not really. It actually fit the theme of the story very well.

13. The two predominant opinions of Jesus, one that Jesus was a Agood man@ and the other that he Adeceives people,@ would not be the two choices John would have made up (7:12); a later Christian writer would have probably inserted the opinion that Jesus was God.

Which help illustrating the fact the early Christian did not believe in the concept of a divine Jesus and that the myth build up over time.


14. The charge of Jesus being demon-possessed is an unlikely invention (7:20).

Why? How so?
In fact, demon-possession seems to have been the go-to diagnostic for just about everything in firt century Jewish culture; from mental illness to acne to haemorrhoids...

15. The use of ASamaritan@ to slander Jesus befits the hostility between Jews and Samaritans (8:48).

cf. point 4.


So, all this 'evidence' only suggest that the writer was Jewish or at least very familiar with Jewish culture and lived around the first century. Modern scholars, already know that and their estimate are, if anything, more precise.

If anything, it push the writing back to after 130AD which is hardly the objective of the apologetic...
 
DOC, regarding this latest splurge of trivial "facts" from the book of John, do you understand that while a book purporting to be history may have some details correct, that doesn't make the wilder aspects of the tale true?

For example, Kim Jong-Il is said to be widely revered in North Korea. There is an official biography of the man written, published and distributed by the government. Naturally, it is in their best interest to portray this man in such a way as to support the reverence they want him to receive. Regarding his birth, the official biography states that his father was Kim Il-Sung, his mother was Kim Jong-suk, he was born on Baekdu Mountain, his birth was announced by a swallow, and as he was born, a double rainbow gleamed over the event and new star shone in the sky.

Since some of these facts are true, do you accept that the birth of Kim Jong-Il happened exactly this way? Why or why not?

Now you know why so few of the people posting in this thread accept your propaganda as completely true.
 
Wait.

Traveled with teenage boys? Shared a bed with them?

If Michael Jackson returns from the dead tomorrow (Today? I lost track of time.), we will know that the Christ has returned. Of course, he might be a little pissed off due to some missing bits fom the autopsy...

Well, that explains a lot about Jesus juice..
 
so great new book out there called "Jesus Interrupted" by Bart. Ehrman. It's not an atheist view of the NT ... it's an honest view of ALL the contridictions and why they are there. It puts a human face and timeline on when each book was written, some were before others, and why for instance Matthew and Paul disagree.

The focus is on how this very flawed book, still can show the basic belief of what Jesus was saying. But, only by accepting that the book was written over a vast time frame and by very different people, and not basing our belief or faith on a flawed work (if you have to prove the Bible is perfect you will so not be able to do so), but basing your belief on something beyond a human written book with biases... well just for the fundies out there...this would be a lovely book for them to read. Not as an attack on Christianity, but as actually a defense. By blindly accepting the Bible as Gods unerring truth, Christians lose before they are out of the starting gate. Fundies want to know why people get turned off by your sad attempts to convert them? You rely too much on the Bible. as Julia Sweeney once said "have you READ it?"

Have you read it? I read some of it everyday but I normally gravitate to the parts I need at any given moment. Like todays chapter I am pondering Galatians 5. We are told how to walk in the spirit rather than fulfilling the desires of the flesh and it is a constant reminder to me to reflect what sins keep us from God or getting into heaven as it is more important for us to be doers of the word than merely hearing it.

Galatians 5:16-25
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

And as for the OP and how this passage relates, everyone can see there is a big difference in people if they live life in the spirt verses the flesh. The word applies to everyone and the most loving people I know are the ones who bear the fruit of the spirit. Isn't it obvious the Bible (& NT) holds much truth?
 
Last edited:
Have you read it? I read some of it everyday but I normally gravitate to the parts I need at any given moment. Like todays chapter I am pondering Galatians 5. We are told how to walk in the spirit rather than fulfilling the desires of the flesh and it is a constant reminder to me to reflect what sins keep us from God or getting into heaven. Galatians 5:16-25
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
Stop spamming irrelevant garbage.
 
Have you read it? <snippety> Isn't it obvious the Bible (& NT) holds much truth?

That made me think...maybe I am an atheïst because I love debauchery, fornication and basically, well... the *good* stuff in life...?

On the other hand, I usually reject the whole biblical things when I am most rational....

But don't worry hon, if I ever make it to Hell (assuming I am wrong), trust me, there will be a party or Hell is over!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom