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Scientology Exposé from the St Petersburg Times

RandFan said:
Why? Why not simply cover the expenses and perhaps a small profit? This is why I don't think it deserves a tax exemption. It's not as if it doesn't believe that there is a capital value to it's product and so it feels justified to profit hansomly on that product.
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My wife worked for the CoS for about a week, twenty years ago. A week is how long it took her to get them to admit they were only going to pay her a dollar an hour...and that was on a good week, profit-wise.

And yes, they did use the word "profit".
 
I should have said persecution complex. I apologize.
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No need to apologize. (Communicating via writing can be tricky at times.) Are you saying members of the LDS religion have a persecution complex? Or those that have left the church?

I know of people who have complained about the free services they received from Extreme Makeover the Home Edition.
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Really? Interesting.

As to the persecution complex, why are people who leave and are critical of the church described in the most extreme terms?
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Not sure what you mean here. I have been described in some very extreme terms by critics of my religion. Truly low levels of nastiness have been leveled at me. Big deal. I usually don't worry about things I can't change as I'm too busy changing things that I can.


Fred, you seem to be very defensive, as if the JREF posters here are only here to attack your "religion." However, I believe that many here really want you to wake up and see Scientology for what it is. WAKE UP! You can have a better life if you get away from Scientology, you can have a better financial outlook as well (unless you're a top executive, in which case I'd have to say you need to realize you're conning people)
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I don't feel defensive. Maybe I am. Comments like this are clearly lacking in any real knowledge of my circumstances, my life and who I really am. (Sure would like a better financial outlook though! But that is more a function of my career choice and my personal failings than anything else.)

I dare say that with more than thirty years in and around the subject of Scientology, Churches and its members, I have a pretty good base for making my own decisions on the subject.

My life has been pretty good with Scientology in it. Thanks for the well-intentioned advice though.

I have family members and friends who used to be in Scientology and then weren't. Didn't affect my relationship with them one iota. I have had connections with people that were ruthless in making degrading, denying and other hostile remarks to me. I generally sever connections with those people unless they mend their ways. (Its only happened a handful of times in the last thirty years.) I think that not having to deal with that sort of thing in one's personal life is helpful in living a stress free life.

Gotta get back to work...

RandFan - One quick thing. I found this definition for "Persecution Complex" (a mental illness in which someone believes that other people are trying to harm them). Is this the definition that you are using?
 
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fredcarr said:
No need to apologize. (Communicating via writing can be tricky at times.) Are you saying members of the LDS religion have a persecution complex? Or those that have left the church?
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People in the church. Ask any member about the critics and you will soon see it rise to the surface. Same with a number of Scientologists I've observed. Particularly in video's of people picketing.

I have had connections with people that were ruthless in making degrading, denying and other hostile remarks to me. I generally sever connections with those people unless they mend their ways.
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"Ruthless" or just critical?

This, I suspect, is what I mean about persecution. Are you so sensitive to criticism that it is seen as hostile and degrading?
 
fredcarr said:
RandFan - One quick thing. I found this definition for "Persecution Complex" (a mental illness in which someone believes that other people are trying to harm them). Is this the definition that you are using?
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The non-clinical (non-pathological) version. Though I strongly suspect that David Miscavige is pathological (assuming that the many stories about him are true).

It's just odd that there are so many people who tell similar stories. They are either maliciously conspiratorial, share a delusion or are honest (perhaps something else, I don't want to exclude any middle).
 
This, I suspect, is what I mean about persecution. Are you so sensitive to criticism that it is seen as hostile and degrading?
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Lol! That's what I thought you were going to say. Being told I'm a brainwashed cultist, should be shot, killed, etc. and I should be sterilized so I can't have children and that the children I do have should be taken from me so I don't infect them with my religion seems a tad ruthless. Maybe I am too sensitive to such comments. (Not really but you get the point.)

Getting beat up as a child for being of a different faith was surely just another form of criticism. Although that doesn't occur anymore (I'm a big guy) I have heard it expressed by individuals that I deserve it.

This doesn't include the horrible phone calls I have heard at my local church. (Particularly last year when the "anonymous" movement got started.)

The list goes on and on. By people that don't know me and certainly don't have a clue about my religion.

On the other hand the great majority of people i know aren't hostile or critical of me or my religion. These are people that do know me, seen me interact with my family, coworkers, friends, etc. I certainly don't think they are out to get me.

It makes for an interesting observation: People that do know me wish me the best and support what I do which is even more interesting considering that almost none of them are Scientologists and really don't know much about my religion as well. Then there are people that don't know me that wish me ill-will and harm, (Sometimes in truly vitrolic terms.) yet profess to be experts of my religion.

Odd, wouldn't you say?

Thaiboxerken says I need to wake up. (I seriously doubt he knows me personally. Maybe he does as I don't really keep my identity a secret.) My friends, coworkers, family and acquaintances have no such attitude. On the contrary I am often the go to guy when it comes to needing help with some issue ranging from teen on drugs to marriage problems. And this is from people that aren't members of my faith.

If I were to only use, as data to make a decision, the comments made by people that know me and those that don't I think it would be more logical to go with those that do know me.

There really are some preconceived biases on this board. I only offer the possibility that there may be other ways to look at the situation and invite one and all to do the looking.

What you might find is more of a common ground than you currently expect.

Really gotta get back to work now. PM me if you got any serious questions.
 
fredcarr said:
Lol! That's what I thought you were going to say. Being told I'm a brainwashed cultist, should be shot, killed, etc. and I should be sterilized so I can't have children and that the children I do have should be taken from me so I don't infect them with my religion seems a tad ruthless.
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Who has said you should be shot, killed, or sterilized?
 
Fred, Jason Beghe thinks you should wake up, and he was a high-level scientologist that even did the indoctrination film for SEAcorps. Perhaps you should take his advice, if you don't like it coming from me, a guy that "knows nothing about Scientology."
 
thaiboxerken said:
Fred, Jason Beghe thinks you should wake up, and he was a high-level scientologist that even did the indoctrination film for SEAcorps. Perhaps you should take his advice, if you don't like it coming from me, a guy that "knows nothing about Scientology."
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Org. Sea Org.

:D
 
Please don't feed the troll. You won't convince him of anything. He is here to distract.

From the St. Petersburg series:
"Rinder and his wife, Cathy, divorced after 35 years. A Sea Org member for 35 years, Cathy Rinder called her ex-husband's allegation that Miscavige struck him on some 50 occasions "outrageous.''

"I slept with Mike,'' she said, "and I would have seen it.''

The Rinders have two adult children, both Sea Org members. Since he left the church in 2007, Rinder has had no contact with them and didn't know their 24-year-old son battled cancer the past 18 months.

A Sea Org member since he was 18, Rinder is 54 and lives in Denver. He sells cars."
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What I wanted to point out is this is why so many people who have been in scientology (particulary the SeaOrg or staff) stay so long. After a while, all their friends and family eventually are in scientology. Friends and family that do not support scientology are discarded because the scientologist is told that these people are SPs (supressive persons) and that this causes the scientologist to be PTS (a Potential trouble source).

If the scientoloist gets sicks or injured, or the tech is not working...the auditor searches for the reason...and it many times an SP in connection with the scientologist. Thus, they are told to disassociate with the SP. In this manner, scientology, like other cults, removes from the follower's life people that may be critical of scientology. Long time members, if they allow doubt to seep in now have to make a choice...stay in scientology even though they know there is something terribly wrong..or leave and lose all their family and friends. Long time members also have fear about how to work in the "wog" world. Many (in the Sea Org) barely even have a high school diploma, let alone a college degree.

You can see this is very daunting.



Can't post links yet, getting there...but you can search for similar stories. Also, I am still amazed Mike Rinder is speaking. He is not a"goodguy" by any means. But the bad things he did were ordered by Miscavige.
 
Gord_in_Toronto said:
Maybe the organization will implode. [/font]
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Trouble is, there's too much money in it. If the story is true at all, someone will slip on a banana peel and break his neck, and the palace coup will appoint a new leader. Eventually they'll happen on someone competent enough to use his brains instead of his fist.
 
They should pick me as the new head of CoS!! I wouldn't punch people, I know BJJ, so I would just tap them out.
 
fredcarr said:
Lol! That's what I thought you were going to say. Being told I'm a brainwashed cultist, should be shot, killed, etc. and I should be sterilized so I can't have children and that the children I do have should be taken from me so I don't infect them with my religion seems a tad ruthless. Maybe I am too sensitive to such comments. (Not really but you get the point.)

Getting beat up as a child for being of a different faith was surely just another form of criticism. Although that doesn't occur anymore (I'm a big guy) I have heard it expressed by individuals that I deserve it.

This doesn't include the horrible phone calls I have heard at my local church. (Particularly last year when the "anonymous" movement got started.)

The list goes on and on. By people that don't know me and certainly don't have a clue about my religion.
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I can't begin to excuse this behavior. Wrong is wrong. I don't see evidence of it but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

You agree that people from all religions and even atheists are equally likely to suffer such, right?

There really are some preconceived biases on this board. I only offer the possibility that there may be other ways to look at the situation and invite one and all to do the looking.

What you might find is more of a common ground than you currently expect.

Really gotta get back to work now. PM me if you got any serious questions.
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There's simply too much data out there. Too many stories, too much abuse. People who have been branded SP and subject to fair game. There's too much documentation and too much admited by Scientology.

It really scares the hell out of me. Decent people can be enslaved for an idea. It not only scares me but it bothers the hell out of me.

I don't think you can simply dismiss it due to bias.
 
Calculon said:
Please don't feed the troll. You won't convince him of anything. He is here to distract.
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I don't care much for this kind of tactic. I understand it I just don't agree. I don't give a damn that he is never convinced of anything. I've no illusions. Is he a troll? Perhaps. Not as bad as most though. It's a conversation. Dialog. Even if it is obtuse and disengenous (I'm not saying that it is. I don't know).

But thanks. You are entitled to your opinion and you are entitled to persuade others to plonk someone you think is a waste of time. Like I said, I just disagree.
 
fredcarr said:
lol! Your persistent. Really working the fraud angle. Try reading the book first. wikipedia? Are you serious??

btw - The benefits are far greater than those blurbs say.

Like I said you free to find out for yourself if its a fraud. If you haven't already made up your mind that is.
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The Wiki citation is from the book, isn't it?

$cientology, the invention of a pulp science-fiction writer, doesn't have an original thought in all its voluminous printed output. Hubbard's cobbled together a quasi-"therapy" cocktail from disparate sources ranging from Eastern religions to what he understood of psychology and psychiatry as they were practiced in his day.

"Auditing" is nothing more than exploring emotional "hot-button" issues with a so-called auditor -- a person so bereft of knowledge and empathy that they rely on a device, the fabled "e-meter," to discern if the other person is actually feeling anything while they are talking. IMO there's some overlap here with Primal Therapy, another "self-perfection" method developed by an "alpha" male with a penchant for feminine pulchritude and an eye for a quick buck. Hubbard and Janov may have something in common with Rasputin and PT Barnum in that regard. :)

The ever-salient fact is, let the buyer beware! There are no "quick fixes" for emotional and/or psychological problems, and cults like $cientology and PT promise way more than they can ever deliver. But then they know this, and exploit it to the nth degree, hence the constant exhortations to "suck it and see" put out by these cults' shills. Keep in mind that those bleating this rubbish are most likely making their living at it -- how many $cientologists do you know who aren't also working for the cult in order to pay for whatever it is they think they're getting from it?



M.
 
Frank Newgent said:
I think Co$ wants around fifty grand to hear about that.

Simultaneously, the planted charges erupted. Atomic blasts ballooned from the craters of Loa, Vesuvius, Shasta, Washington, Fujiyama, Etna, and many, many others. Arching higher and higher, up and outwards, towering clouds mushroomed, shot through with flashes of flame, waste and fission. Great winds raced tumultuously across the face of Earth, spreading tales of destruction...
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Free here
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Gods, I'm glad Xenu didn't know about Yellowstone, Toba, Owen's Valley, Taupo and La Garita. Could have made a right mess.
 
I wonder what kind of fun tricks one can pull off on a Scientologist auditor in regards to the e-meter? After all, it's just an ohm-meter.
 
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