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Scientology Exposé from the St Petersburg Times

Oh, come on Fred.

LRon makes a number of specific claims about the abilities of a Clear in his magnum opus, Dianetics: One of my Best SF Books Ever. Just show us one Clear with any one of these amazing abilities. Quick before the "Church" tries to buy up and "correct" all the copies. I'll sell mine for somewhat more than the 10 cents I paid for it.
 
That's a worthy goal I'm in favor of. Still very curious about what control over MEST means, in practical terms.
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I think I can answer this. (This is my interpretation and should not be taken as canon.)

A person may have difficulty driving a car. If his ability was improved in this regard then his ability to be cause over matter, energy, space and time could said to be improved as well. It may be a small improvement in that is is more aware of the car and the various vibrational feedback he is getting in a turn. A skill which is vital to a race car driver. Or it could be a large improvement in that he is no longer terrified to get in and drive a car at all.

Some people could be said to have more control over animals than another. Some people are more competent at handling different aspects of the material universe. (I'm sure anyone can think of their own examples.)

In Scientology absolutes are conceived of as being unobtainable. Its really a question of how much better can an individual get in his own estimation at handling the universe around him or herself. The better one is able to do so then the better chance that person has at surviving and leading a better life.

In today's fast paced world not being able to handle the universe around one can be tantamount to suicide. Not being able to control a car at 75 mph can lead to some serious consequences.

That's a practical look at the subject of increasing a persons awareness to be in better control of the physical universe around him.

As an aside it appears the general manners in this place haven't improved much:) (Jimtron - Just to be clear I wasn't referring to you btw.)
 
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fredcarr said:
In today's fast paced world not being able to handle the universe around one can be tantamount to suicide. Not being able to control a car at 75 mph can lead to some serious consequences.
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What about not being able to handle a race car going 600 MPH on Planet Marcab? I thought the only consequence was you're reborn and get to re-enter the race.
 
fredcarr said:
I think I can answer this. (This is my interpretation and should not be taken as canon.)

A person may have difficulty driving a car. If his ability was improved in this regard then his ability to be cause over matter, energy, space and time could said to be improved as well. It may be a small improvement in that is is more aware of the car and the various vibrational feedback he is getting in a turn. A skill which is vital to a race car driver. Or it could be a large improvement in that he is no longer terrified to get in and drive a car at all.

Some people could be said to have more control over animals than another. Some people are more competent at handling different aspects of the material universe. (I'm sure anyone can think of their own examples.)

In Scientology absolutes are conceived of as being unobtainable. Its really a question of how much better can an individual get in his own estimation at handling the universe around him or herself. The better one is able to do so then the better chance that person has at surviving and leading a better life.

In today's fast paced world not being able to handle the universe around one can be tantamount to suicide. Not being able to control a car at 75 mph can lead to some serious consequences.

That's a practical look at the subject of increasing a persons awareness to be in better control of the physical universe around him.

As an aside it appears the general manners in this place haven't improved much:) (Jimtron - Just to be clear I wasn't referring to you btw.)
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Fred: I do appreciate your patience as I'm sure it's not so fun to post here with so many fierce critics of Scientology.

I don't understand your response above. Yes, some people are better able to control animals. You can teach someone to drive a car faster or safer or whatever. You can teach someone about training animals. Where does the control over MEST come in? Is teaching someone to drive a car well an example of control over MEST? If so, how does it differ from non-Hubbard teaching techniques?

With all due respect, your response makes it sound like control over MEST doesn't really mean anything.

eta: Another way of asking this: what can an OT do that a non-OT can't do, if anything? Do OTs have special powers, or no?
 
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Gord_in_Toronto said:
Oh, come on Fred.

LRon makes a number of specific claims about the abilities of a Clear in his magnum opus, Dianetics: One of my Best SF Books Ever. Just show us one Clear with any one of these amazing abilities. Quick before the "Church" tries to buy up and "correct" all the copies. I'll sell mine for somewhat more than the 10 cents I paid for it.
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Funny, that. Back in the 70s you could pick up a paperback copy of Dianetics for less than the price of its printing cost here in Australia. Guess they didn't need the money back then.


M.
 
The absolute genius of Scientology lies in those courses; I'm convinced that's why this kooky movement outlived its creator, unlike the LaRouche Cult which will dissolve when Lyndon finally shuffles off the mortal coil.

I have often thought that a good religion could be made out of conspiracy theories, with intensive training in JFK and RFK prior to moving up to 9-11, the Fed and the Bilderbergers.
 
Moochie said:
$cientology is going down. Big time.


M.
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I dunno about that. There seem to be enough people who get sucked in hook line and sinker to a lot of these "self help" type cults. Look at the Church of Oprah. Plus, a lot of people who have defected from the church proper continue to practice their "religion" while keeping their wallets from being drained.

What I think (my opinion only) is Miscavige will have to step down soon and Mr Cruise will take over. Miscavige doesn't seem like the type of guy who'd do that willingly, though. There'll be a coup, I am sure and a new, "gentler" $cientology will emerge.

Just an aside - Miscavige LOOKS like a little monster though... those psychopathic eyes kinda creep me out.

Mon$ter
 
Dear Jimtron - I hear ya.

I think the car example was meant as an example of how increased control over the physical universe would equate to a "practical" application. In my eyes it means a lot as the physical universe is the playing field for this game we like to call life.

(Not sure how to compare to non-Hubbard techniques as that could cover a lot of ground and I'm sure we would find a lot of overlap as well.)

I can't really comment about any supposed special powers Scientologists may have acquired. I can't fly or levitate anything with my mind if that is what your asking? (Sure wish I could manipulate time like Hero does in Heroes.)

I must admit when I was a kid I thought having abilities like that would be neato!

Now something else is much more important to me - a true understanding of who I really am. Am I just a meat body doomed to die after a few years of a mortal existence to hopefully be reminded by a couple generations of my off spring? Is there something more to this universe than the purely physical? And even more importantly, at least to me, who or what is the other fellow all about? Is he just a collection of chemicals? What makes a person uniquely him? Is it just a sum of genetics and environmental influences?

By increasing my understanding of myself I also increase my understanding of others.

In "Scientology: Fundamentals of Thought" I believe it says this: "The only richness there is is understanding. That is all that Scientology has to give."

That pretty much sums it up for me.

Jimtron - You mentioned that you have a couple books. Do you have "Scientology: The Fundamentals of Thought"?


 
fredcarr said:
In "Scientology: Fundamentals of Thought" I believe it says this: "The only richness there is is understanding. That is all that Scientology has to give."
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Do you have permission to quote that copyrighted sentence? If not, the Church of Scientology might sue you.
 
I think the car example was meant as an example of how increased control over the physical universe would equate to a "practical" application. In my eyes it means a lot as the physical universe is the playing field for this game we like to call life.
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What increased control over the physical universe...please specify exactly in what way an OT has control over the physical universe. They can drive better? I honestly don't understand, and I want to.

By increasing my understanding of myself I also increase my understanding of others.
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What I'm asking about is the science of Dianetics (a term LRH used), and about the specifics of OT tech. Increasing an understanding of yourself to better understand others is pretty universal--I think most religions and philosophies and scientists and psychiatrists would agree.

If Dianetics is revolutionary science, why haven't Hubbard's discoveries been confirmed by other scientists in the half century since it was discovered?

If the existence of engrams is scientific, how come there's no empirical evidence for them?

In "Scientology: Fundamentals of Thought" I believe it says this: "The only richness there is is understanding. That is all that Scientology has to give."
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I don't think I have that book--but I'll check. If the above quote was all Scientology claimed, I would have no qualms. But in Dianetics, LRH claims that his tech can heal illnesses. And there is the control over MEST claims we've been discussing. If the church said up front to people, "we're a religion, and all we have to offer is richness of undrestanding" or something like that, I wouldn't have a problem. But going up the bridge costs a lot of money, and Hubbard made lots of claims about his tech curing illnesses and providing special powers.
 
If the church said up front to people, "we're a religion, and all we have to offer is richness of undrestanding" or something like that, I wouldn't have a problem. But going up the bridge costs a lot of money, and Hubbard made lots of claims about his tech curing illnesses and providing special powers.
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Well that's pretty much what I was told. Can't comment upon what every individual was told or not told of course. Its for sure Mr. Hubbard said a lot of things. (A lot of which is far more wild and radical than I have ever heard any critic mention.) We could discuss those things for the next millennium and about the only thing would would be able to agree upon is he sure said a lot of things:)

No one has represented to me that I would get any super powers besides an increased understanding of myself and life. And that I have gotten in spades. I would love it if I could wave a magic wand and give the benefits I have gotten to others but its taken a lot of hard work on my part to get what I have gotten.

Almost forgot..Mr. Hubbard said something else as well. Find out for yourself if Dianetics and Scientology are valid subjects.

"...Nothing in Dianetics and Scientology is true for you Unless you have observed it
And it is true according to your observation.
That is all."


http://www.doctrinalhubbard.com/page003.htm


What increased control over the physical universe...please specify exactly in what way an OT has control over the physical universe. They can drive better?
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Exactly. Driving better is a perfect example. A race car driver might equate it to a faster reaction time.

Re Engrams: (Defined as a moment of pain and unconsciousness recorded in a persons mind) Its easy enough for one to determine if they exist or not. Study up on Dianetics and apply it and see if it works. If after doing so you decide its bunk then so be it.

Far from being a brainwashed cultist I am painted to be on the internet I do the same thing. I learn various principles of Scientology and apply them to some facet of life and see what the result is. I sure haven't done this with everything in Scientology so reserve judgement about many aspects of it. Why? Well, for one reason it seems sensible and the other is that is exactly what Mr. Hubbard requested. I've listened to him several times in lectures state that he wants no person to "believe" in Scientology. Most people get into Scientology by doing what I just outlined: Read a book on it, apply some of its principles and see if they work. Others just scoff and (more recently) quote some passage gotten from the internet. Some few 'critics' will even read a book or two (maybe) but I am unsure how well they did so nor if they even applied it correctly.

Ron has mentioned many times that any benefits such as relief from an accident or illness is a side effect compared to the goal of Scientology which I have stated above.

Those links of the three videos really lays this out.

As far as independent verification I could care or less. Its simple not important to me. Somebody telling me something is true or not is not a good enough substitute for my own knowing what is true or not. Remember I said its one's own understanding that is increased not someone else's.

On the other hand who knows if there haven't been discoveries made or will be made that concur with things Ron has said and or discovered. Mr. Hubbard has 40 million words of written and spoken words recorded. Thats a lot of ground of which I haven't covered all of.

The "Fundamentals of Thought" really cover the way we view the spirit in relationship to the physical universe. I think you may well find the answers you are looking for there. I can only say what I think.

I of course will not be able to convince anyone of anything I say (especially here.) Its up to them to find out for themselves.

Let me know if you need a copy of the "Fundamentals of Thought" and I'll send one off to you if you wish.

Hope that helps.
 
fredcarr said:
Well that's pretty much what I was told. Can't comment upon what every individual was told or not told of course. Its for sure Mr. Hubbard said a lot of things. (A lot of which is far more wild and radical than I have ever heard any critic mention.) We could discuss those things for the next millennium and about the only thing would would be able to agree upon is he sure said a lot of things:)

No one has represented to me that I would get any super powers besides an increased understanding of myself and life. And that I have gotten in spades. I would love it if I could wave a magic wand and give the benefits I have gotten to others but its taken a lot of hard work on my part to get what I have gotten.

Almost forgot..Mr. Hubbard said something else as well. Find out for yourself if Dianetics and Scientology are valid subjects.

"...Nothing in Dianetics and Scientology is true for you Unless you have observed it
And it is true according to your observation.
That is all."


http://www.doctrinalhubbard.com/page003.htm




Exactly. Driving better is a perfect example. A race car driver might equate it to a faster reaction time.

Re Engrams: (Defined as a moment of pain and unconsciousness recorded in a persons mind) Its easy enough for one to determine if they exist or not. Study up on Dianetics and apply it and see if it works. If after doing so you decide its bunk then so be it.

Far from being a brainwashed cultist I am painted to be on the internet I do the same thing. I learn various principles of Scientology and apply them to some facet of life and see what the result is. I sure haven't done this with everything in Scientology so reserve judgement about many aspects of it. Why? Well, for one reason it seems sensible and the other is that is exactly what Mr. Hubbard requested. I've listened to him several times in lectures state that he wants no person to "believe" in Scientology. Most people get into Scientology by doing what I just outlined: Read a book on it, apply some of its principles and see if they work. Others just scoff and (more recently) quote some passage gotten from the internet. Some few 'critics' will even read a book or two (maybe) but I am unsure how well they did so nor if they even applied it correctly.

Ron has mentioned many times that any benefits such as relief from an accident or illness is a side effect compared to the goal of Scientology which I have stated above.

Those links of the three videos really lays this out.

As far as independent verification I could care or less. Its simple not important to me. Somebody telling me something is true or not is not a good enough substitute for my own knowing what is true or not. Remember I said its one's own understanding that is increased not someone else's.

On the other hand who knows if there haven't been discoveries made or will be made that concur with things Ron has said and or discovered. Mr. Hubbard has 40 million words of written and spoken words recorded. Thats a lot of ground of which I haven't covered all of.

The "Fundamentals of Thought" really cover the way we view the spirit in relationship to the physical universe. I think you may well find the answers you are looking for there. I can only say what I think.

I of course will not be able to convince anyone of anything I say (especially here.) Its up to them to find out for themselves.

Let me know if you need a copy of the "Fundamentals of Thought" and I'll send one off to you if you wish.

Hope that helps.
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Fred, Fred?

In Dianetics: A Lunatic's Ravings, LRon claims that when you become "Clear" you will have all sorts of super-human abilities. If this were true, the Church of Scamology should be able to produce one such person. It hasn't. I can't. Dianetics is ********. Scientology is ********. If LRon ever said a true word in his life, it must have been by accident. Prove me wrong.
 
Again, what about the UFO-aliens who are controlling my life? I want to hear more about that?

Because if you Scientologists are the OPPOSITION to those space aliens, I am on THEIR side.

I know evil when I see it.
 
BenBurch said:
Again, what about the UFO-aliens who are controlling my life? I want to hear more about that?
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I think Co$ wants around fifty grand to hear about that.

Free here

...seventy-five million years ago, Xenu was the ruler of a Galactic Confederacy which consisted of 26 stars and 76 planets including Earth, which was then known as "Teegeeack".[5][11] The planets were overpopulated, with an average population of 178 billion.[1][4][6] The Galactic Confederacy's civilization was comparable to our own, with aliens "walking around in clothes which looked very remarkably like the clothes they wear this very minute" and using cars, trains and boats looking exactly the same as those "circa 1950, 1960" on Earth.[16]

Xenu was about to be deposed from power, so he devised a plot to eliminate the excess population from his dominions. With the assistance of psychiatrists, he summoned billions[4][5] of his citizens together under the pretense of income tax inspections, then paralyzed them and froze them in a mixture of alcohol and glycol to capture their souls. The kidnapped populace was loaded into spacecraft for transport to the site of extermination, the planet of Teegeeack (Earth).[5] The appearance of these spacecraft would later be subconsciously expressed in the design of the Douglas DC-8, the only difference being: "the DC8 had fans, propellers on it and the space plane didn't."[14] When they had reached Teegeeack/Earth, the paralyzed citizens were unloaded around the bases of volcanoes across the planet.[5][11] Hydrogen bombs were then lowered into the volcanoes and detonated simultaneously.[11] Only a few aliens' physical bodies survived. Hubbard described the scene in his film script, Revolt in the Stars:

Simultaneously, the planted charges erupted. Atomic blasts ballooned from the craters of Loa, Vesuvius, Shasta, Washington, Fujiyama, Etna, and many, many others. Arching higher and higher, up and outwards, towering clouds mushroomed, shot through with flashes of flame, waste and fission. Great winds raced tumultuously across the face of Earth, spreading tales of destruction...

The now-disembodied victims' souls, which Hubbard called thetans, were blown into the air by the blast. They were captured by Xenu's forces using an "electronic ribbon" ("which also was a type of standing wave") and sucked into "vacuum zones" around the world. The hundreds of billions[5][17] of captured thetans were taken to a type of cinema, where they were forced to watch a "three-D, super colossal motion picture" for thirty-six days. This implanted what Hubbard termed "various misleading data"' (collectively termed the R6 implant) into the memories of the hapless thetans, "which has to do with God, the Devil, space opera, et cetera". This included all world religions, with Hubbard specifically attributing Roman Catholicism and the image of the Crucifixion to the influence of Xenu. The two "implant stations" cited by Hubbard were said to have been located on Hawaii and Las Palmas in the Canary Islands.
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jimtron said:
That's a worthy goal I'm in favor of. Still very curious about what control over MEST means, in practical terms.
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The goal of Scientology is misdirection in the face of unanswerable questions.
 
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