Give autodidacts and independent learners a chance

[lightfire22000]

MattC,

I disagree. I think that academics are generally terrible at using databases at getting data quickly.

 

[realpaladin]

If someone could do as good a job on a project as a competing employee but would work for a much cheaper rate

And yet you refuse to respond to my remark... selectively blind?

 

[drkitten]

All of those things happen because of government oversight if anything.

Oh, yeah. A mechanic using the wrong part happened "because of government oversight."

Laziness, incompetence, and greed are ONLY the result of government intererence. There has never been a case, for example, of a government inspector catching someone using substandard parts.

Or has there? Maybe there's been more than one? In fact, the problem is quite common, which is why governments have inspector general offices in the first place.

Proven referral agencies over the years would do a much better job of evaluating such things.

No, they wouldn't.

 

[drkitten]

MattC,

I disagree. I think that academics are generally terrible at using databases at getting data quickly.

I disagree. You don't think. Not at all.

And you're wrong about academic and databases, too.

Please keep in mind the Membership Agreement and do not use personal attacks to argue your point.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Lisa Simpson

 

[Toke]

MattC,

I disagree. I think that academics are generally terrible at using databases at getting data quickly.

My last company must have been really dumb.
They hired a historian to work in their archives/recordkeeping.
The idea was that he was litterate and had extensive experince in finding his way around archives.

Any sensible company would hire plumbers instead of some academic to keep their archives updated.

 

[lightfire22000]

The hacker community is a thousand times faster at finding information online or electronically than most "historians" anywhere in the world. Historians exist for spin and for vast knowledge immediately. Their job is to present history in a certain light more often than not. Frederick Jackson Turner had the American frontier spin. Edward Gibbon had the Enlightenment spin. It's not a question of just pure facts. BTW, what company would hire a historian? A museum?

What kind of databases are we talking about here? I assumed we were talking about electronic databases. Preserving old documents is very important and skillful. If this is what you're talking about then your company was wise to hire a historian. However, they shouldn't be legally obliged to do so.

On a side note, anyone who studies history is a historian so your sense of titles is pointless. What should make one a formal "historian."

kitten, none of the articles you provided show how "government" oversight would have prevented the parts from being on the plane. The market is a much better indicator than some bureaucracy. Insufficient oversight is not the problem of the government's but the problem of the manufacturer! In a market system, those manufacturers wouldn't be able to sneak substandard parts by as often as they do. If passengers want to ride on an airplane with "substandard" parts, let them! As long as the airline is willing to pay for crash damages and doesn't lie about their plane's components, LET THEM DO IT! The only reason they tried it was because they thought they could sneak stuff past the government. I bet they often do. Of course, the available portion of the article doesn't even say what the parts were so we have no way of truly knowing if they were substandard or not. Not much thinking on your part. You're getting worse and worse kitten.

 

[lightfire22000]

And yet you refuse to respond to my remark... selectively blind?

Sorry, what was your remark again? I'm missing remarks because I can't live on the forum.

 

[lightfire22000]

Ah! Here we are.

Prove it!

Here in India the system is as follows; you can do pretty much as you like and if you want a government certificate you have to pass their tests (or bribe a few people), but otherwise you can still do as you please.

I am not living in the worlds most innovative country...

Actually, you're living in one of the most innovative countries in the world. Most top engineers are Indian or of Indian ancestry. Many doctors in the US are from India or are second generation and have parents from India. Bangalore is a major technology hub. IITs are elite institutions. I'd say, you're living in an innovative country similar to the US in the 1870s in some respects.

 

[Toke]

The hacker community is a thousand times faster at finding information online or electronically than most "historians" anywhere in the world. Historians exist for spin and for vast knowledge immediately. Their job is to present history in a certain light more often than not. Frederick Jackson Turner had the American frontier spin. Edward Gibbon had the Enlightenment spin. It's not a question of just pure facts. BTW, what company would hire a historian? A museum?

What kind of databases are we talking about here? I assumed we were talking about electronic databases. Preserving old documents is very important and skillful. If this is what you're talking about then your company was wise to hire a historian. However, they shouldn't be legally obliged to do so.

On a side note, anyone who studies history is a historian so your sense of titles is pointless. What should make one a formal "historian."

This is an interresting revelation of your viewpoints.
So, fast goodle-fu beats understanding.

Actually it was a shipping company, there were no legal obligation to hire a historian. It was just market forces deciding that they wanted someone with real skills and understanding.

My "sense of title" stems from title normaly being a garantie of a minimun knowlegde and work ethics. The idea is to have a standardised system where a title/accreditation is generally reconised to come with certain qualifications.

Guess it is unpopular with people who cannot be bothered to take any formal education, but still want a well paying job.

 

[Toke]

Prove it!

Here in India the system is as follows; you can do pretty much as you like and if you want a government certificate you have to pass their tests (or bribe a few people), but otherwise you can still do as you please.

I am not living in the worlds most innovative country...

We had two indian fitters onboard, with a small briefcase of litteraly goldtrimmed certificates. They were fired again rather quickly, and must have cost the company a fortune compard to what work they did.

 

[AWPrime]

kitten, none of the articles you provided show how "government" oversight would have prevented the parts from being on the plane. The market is a much better indicator than some bureaucracy. Insufficient oversight is not the problem of the government's but the problem of the manufacturer! In a market system, those manufacturers wouldn't be able to sneak substandard parts by as often as they do. If passengers want to ride on an airplane with "substandard" parts, let them! As long as the airline is willing to pay for crash damages and doesn't lie about their plane's components, LET THEM DO IT! The only reason they tried it was because they thought they could sneak stuff past the government. I bet they often do. Of course, the available portion of the article doesn't even say what the parts were so we have no way of truly knowing if they were substandard or not. Not much thinking on your part. You're getting worse and worse kitten.

This is an actual honest question: Are you insane?

Your so called system can only catch such things only after its too late. The deaths of hundreds would be become common events instead of freak incidents.

 

[Holler Hoojer]

Lightfire22000,
I still don't understand your point. Pretend I'm slow (hell, I really am) and walk me through it. What exactly do you want to change? I live here in the American rustbelt, I mean midwest, and there is very little government regulation on jobs and credentials, except for the professions. So far as I know (and I do usually pay attention), there is no legislation out there in Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, or Pennsylvania to change the present level of control. If you want to start a water dowsing company, you can credential yourself, advertise, and sell stock. Nobody in power cares - provided you pay taxes. Most of the control comes from within the trades themselves. Maybe not ideal for a newbie, but that's the way democracies work.

 

[MattC]

The hacker community is a thousand times faster at finding information online or electronically than most "historians" anywhere in the world. Historians exist for spin and for vast knowledge immediately. Their job is to present history in a certain light more often than not. Frederick Jackson Turner had the American frontier spin. Edward Gibbon had the Enlightenment spin. It's not a question of just pure facts. BTW, what company would hire a historian? A museum?

Many companies would hire a historian. Someone with experience in the temporal nature of record-keeping and document preservation is always an asset, particularly if your business often refers to older documents (a law firm, for example).

Also, if you prize speed over quality of depth when information is considered then by all means hire a hacker. Someone who can find three hundred articles by searching a database is less valuable than someone who can correctly interpret and evaluate the meaning of one.

~ Matt

 

[lightfire22000]

QUOTE=Holler Hoojer;4830420]Lightfire22000,
I still don't understand your point. Pretend I'm slow (hell, I really am) and walk me through it. What exactly do you want to change? I live here in the American rustbelt, I mean midwest, and there is very little government regulation on jobs and credentials, except for the professions. So far as I know (and I do usually pay attention), there is no legislation out there in Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, or Pennsylvania to change the present level of control. If you want to start a water dowsing company, you can credential yourself, advertise, and sell stock. Nobody in power cares - provided you pay taxes. Most of the control comes from within the trades themselves. Maybe not ideal for a newbie, but that's the way democracies work.[/QUOTE]

There are several advantages and I'm not advocating a particular advantage over another. However, for myself, time and money are the major factors. I study hard generally and I have usually achieved results. I also think that there are many learning styles so it doesn't make sense to declare certain styles to be more effective than others without testing them and judging by results.

The convergence of fields at many levels have given older licensing laws very different and negative meaning today. Nanotech labs are at a severe disadvantage now if they don't have scientists who can legally use the J.D. and/or M.D. title. Oftentimes, compounds are developed first and applications are then determined. This is not ideal, but it happens. When this happens, licensed J.D.s have an unfair advantage when it comes to patents. The patent system is discriminatory and absurd and gives parasitic bureaucrats an unfair advantage. In labs, there are many M.D.s endorsing fake medicines just for money and are living off of their credentials. This was not the benevolent purpose of licenses. J.M. Smucker's patented the PEANUT BUTTER AND JELLY SANDWICH!!! That is not why we have patents.

For drkitten specifically,
what I term tests could certainly qualify as projects also. The tests are not necessarily always written. Projects are tests in a sense.

I'm from Massachusetts originally. I mostly follow that state's standards for business. It is exceptionally corrupt, frequently marked by a legislature determined to grant monopolies for several industries. Recently, someone got in trouble for trying to give dog tracks a monopoly on gambling and got mildly burned for it. Fortunately, they outlawed dog racing afterwards to punish him imo. There was also tremendous corruption involved in dismantling their manufacturing industry. There is exceptional regulation and brutal laws.

The people in the guilds put the people in power in the first place. They'll rig elections, they'll ban people from buying air time, they'll seize property, and they'll do things such as trying to outlaw homeschooling in California.

 

[lightfire22000]

Also, if you prize speed over quality of depth when information is considered then by all means hire a hacker. Someone who can find three hundred articles by searching a database is less valuable than someone who can correctly interpret and evaluate the meaning of one.

~ Matt

That's not hard to do once you find the context of the article and quote. Give me any historical article on US History and most on Medieval Europe. Let's see what I can do with it. I bet I can top your "historian" by providing a more disinterested contextual view.

 

[dudalb]

That's not hard to do once you find the context of the article and quote. Give me any historical article on US History and most on Medieval Europe. Let's see what I can do with it. I bet I can top your "historian" by providing a more disinterested contextual view.

 

[lightfire22000]

This is an actual honest question: Are you insane?

Your so called system can only catch such things only after its too late. The deaths of hundreds would be become common events instead of freak incidents.

No. Not so much. Why would you ever board a plane that experts said was unsafe? Why would an airline finance one? Screwups aren't profitable. As a result, the market dictates regulation. However, it is market-dictated regulation, not government regulation.

 

[AWPrime]

No. Not so much. Why would you ever board a plane that experts said was unsafe? Why would an airline finance one? Screwups aren't profitable. As a result, the market dictates regulation. However, it is market-dictated regulation, not government regulation.

You have absolutely no clue. As I said your assumption relies on people knowing everything and even then it only provides information when its too late.

And there is also the fact that mistakes not only endanger the people in the aircraft but also people on the ground. In reality the cost of sloppy work is way too high. A company that doesn't use the right parts and procedures gets blacklisted and banned from flying in the western world.

 

[realpaladin]

We had two indian fitters onboard, with a small briefcase of litteraly goldtrimmed certificates. They were fired again rather quickly, and must have cost the company a fortune compard to what work they did.

That is prove of the opposite of what lightfire2000 is saying.

The certificates here mean nothing and you can have a million of them. Even university means nothing.

It proves that you need a really stringent body overseeing the whole testing system.

 

[Toke]

That is prove of the opposite of what lightfire2000 is saying.

The certificates here mean nothing and you can have a million of them. Even university means nothing.

It proves that you need a really stringent body overseeing the whole testing system.

Yes, that is the point I was trying to make.
That the value of certificates varies around the world.

I want education and certification of it overseen by a government whose objective is a well educated population.