Give autodidacts and independent learners a chance

[lightfire22000]

Cheating is well-known to be rampant on the Chinese tests, which is why almost no one, not even the Chinese, particularly trusts the outcomes.

I didn't know that, but the Chinese seem to be just fine in terms of their education. China boasts many self-taught scientists and engineers and are rapidly emerging in those fields. I would go far enough to say that their willingness to learn on their own without institutional dependency or even sovereignty is integral to their success.

We've already seen the effects of this kind of policy in operation DIPSCAM; companies crawl out of the woodwork to offer valueless credentials, and other companies crawl out of the woodwork to offer valueless certifications of the valueless credentials.

It can look like that, but DIPSCAM resulted from people imputing too much significance in a college degree. If employers judged applicants by their skills and not their titles and degrees, there would be no demand for phony degrees.

 

[martu]

Martu again makes good points.

Your company wouldn't have to administer the tests! Other private companies would quickly emerge and administer the tests, or until then, the government could issue competency tests that would be open to everyone. This is the case in China.

Why would we trust them?

There are private tests at the moment, Microsoft for example run a certification program that shows at least a basic competency in their software tools. But I'll tell you now they don't mean much - Google 'braindumps' and 'MCSD' and you'll find all the answers you ever need to become certified very quickly.

Discipline can come from the tedious, but it doesn't always.

Not always no but how is it in my firm's interest to cater for a tiny minority of the population? How else do you suggest I judge your discipline from a CV?

Another point that I'd like to address is that many people with college degrees in one field also would like experience in what's considered another field. For instance, I'm studying hoping to be a pharmacist, but I would also like to show that I am a capable engineer.

As long as you don't die first you'll be able to do this somehow. Why are you so impatient?

 

[lightfire22000]

Not always no but how is it in my firm's interest to cater for a tiny minority of the population? How else do you suggest I judge your discipline from a CV?

How is it not in your firm's interest? Running these tests would give you access to tons and tons of untapped talent! Also, think of the labor saving cost.

 

[Rasmus]

How is it not in your firm's interest? Running these tests would give you access to tons and tons of untapped talent!

Why would a company even want tons and tons of untapped talent?

I do occasional hire people and assist others in hiring. Those are mostly low level positions for fairly unskilled labour but I think my point should transfer well to most hiring situations:

Companies hire because they have specific needs and want them to be met quickly. I.e. there is work that needs to be done, so they look for somebody with the skills that it takes to do that work.

When looking at candidates I want to be able to quickly decide who does and doesn't meet my criteria. I will usually not even care about anyone with phantastic skills as long as they aren't the skills I am looking for.

What good would it do me to find out lots about a lot of people whos skills I am not interested in? Even if I should need those skills at some point in the future, it is unlikely that the same person will

a) still be available
b) still be interested
c) still have all of the required skills and
d) won't be outperformed by somebody else.

The possibility of d) alone means I'll have to recruit all over again, anyway. (Exceptions are possibly, of course.)

Also, think of the labor saving cost.

de-centralisation and de-standartisation saves labour now'

 

[martu]

How is it not in your firm's interest? Running these tests would give you access to tons and tons of untapped talent! Also, think of the labor saving cost.

We get many more applicants than we can interview for jobs as it is why do you think we need more applicants? We don't struggle to find good applicants either.

What labour saving cost?

 

[drkitten]

I didn't know that, but the Chinese seem to be just fine in terms of their education. China boasts many self-taught scientists and engineers and are rapidly emerging in those fields. I would go far enough to say that their willingness to learn on their own without institutional dependency or even sovereignty is integral to their success.

"Without institutional dependency or even sovereignty"? What on earth does that mean?

The reason that the Chinese are doing so well in terms of education is because they have something like 100 state-run colleges and universities, graduating something like six million people per year. They're creating so many college graduates that most of them fail to find places in Chinese graduate schools and instead try to find places abroad (which is why something like 25% of US graduate students are Chinese citizens).

That's hardly a sign of "willingness to learn on their own." It's a well-functioning state-run educational system.

 

[Holler Hoojer]

Thanks for the response. You make a good point about TESC and I had only vaguely heard of it and I knew nothing of its nature. What do you teach? If you doubt me, I bet I can answer most problems you ask if they are in math or science. My grades are decent, but I was derailed and hampered by a series of seizures, or so the doctors think. Also, I defend my description of lectures. Professors in classes often spend a disproportionate time on minutia. For instance, all of analyzing circuit schematics depends upon determining relationships between sources and elements and equations. It has nothing to do with capacitor manufacturing as far as the problem is concerned.

There are a few things wrong with your post drkitten. One, the biggest reasons for wanting to allow legal recognition based on open testing are time and money. It's not that I want to just cut class and sleep in all day. Two, you avoid the issue of accreditation all together. Accreditation creates an extremely bureaucratic environment in academia. Without it, many effective schools would emerge and many people who don't presently have skills to pass necessary tests would if there could be more schools and no restraints on trade. Don't forget that a lot of people can still learn "independently" without learning by themselves. Likely, this is how many lab based classes would work(and would work much better than current lab classes.)

Three, I could have a degree from TESC, which I had only vaguely heard of before thanks, but I think many or most trades would still be blocked with that degree. I am considering it though. A degree from TESC is not “all the credentials could desire.” Many accreditation laws either directly or indirectly ban the use of degrees of TESC(except for the BS in Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness, in which I'm not well versed.) I don't know about Nursing. However, in light of your information I must concede that Nursing is not as protected as I had previously thought.

If you are interested in nursing, forget regional accreditation. You need to pay attention to NLNAC accreditation (I suspect any school that is NLNAC accredited is also regionally accredited, but don't know that). TESC has (or had, last time I looked) NLNAC accreditation. So does Excelsior in New York. But, there is gonna be a clinical component. Nobody wants a nurse who can just pass written tests.

What sort of discrimination is there against TESC? Examples?

A few years ago, I got "downsized" (a nice way of saying fired for getting old) and had to scramble like hell to keep health insurance. I put in some time in career schools. To this day, I check the Medical Assistant's school BEFORE I check the physician's school when I go to a new office.

 

[lightfire22000]

Sorry about the long wait, but I've had work and school.

We get many more applicants than we can interview for jobs as it is why do you think we need more applicants? We don't struggle to find good applicants either.

What labour saving cost?

If someone could do as good a job on a project as a competing employee but would work for a much cheaper rate, then hiring that person is advantageous. Unconventionally and effectively educated individuals would work for lower rates right now since fewer people would hire them.

drkitten, institutional sovereignty referred to the absolute authority of an institution. That is, the belief that a school or college is perfect and a better one should not be started.

 

[Wudang]

If someone could do as good a job on a project as a competing employee but would work for a much cheaper rate, then hiring that person is advantageous. Unconventionally and effectively educated individuals would work for lower rates right now since fewer people would hire them.

Emphasis added. And would they work as cheap as someone in Hyderabad or Pune who has attended some of the excellent schools and unis there? I doubt it

 

[Lucian]

bpesta22,
You make a very good point about the word "rubric." It has lost its original meaning of roughly category and has come to mean a set of criteria for grading. In modern usage, a syllabus is the rubric in writing. Do you know why rubric has come to mean that? Teaching guilds! Teachers colleges and courses routinely distort the English language. Do you know what they call teaching material now? They call it teaching "content." Content is a dirty word to them.

Huh, I thought the "original" meaning of "rubric" was "something red," particularly a heading or title (or just a phrase, a word or a sentence) written or printed in red to highlight it.

 

[drkitten]

drkitten, institutional sovereignty referred to the absolute authority of an institution. That is, the belief that a school or college is perfect and a better one should not be started.

Ah, so this whole thread is an argument against the imaginary people in your head who hold that belief.

I'm sorry. I thought you were one of the reality-influenced posters. Now I know better.

 

[Holler Hoojer]

Sorry about the long wait, but I've had work and school.



If someone could do as good a job on a project as a competing employee but would work for a much cheaper rate, then hiring that person is advantageous.

That's often not the best idea. If you're in business, your goal is not to spend as little as possible but rather to earn as much as possible, and, for some, to operate a sustainable business. Imagine that you require a motor shaft turned and balanced by 7:00 am tomorrow. Now you have two shops that can do this work at the same quality level, in the same amount of time. One is 1600 meters down the road. The other, who will do the job for 30% as much, is in Mumbai. Who do you choose?

If it's only an employee we're talking about, recall the commuter flight that crashed in Buffalo this past winter. The copilot earned, I believe, just over $16,000 per year. I know she was qualified, but I want a copilot who can afford a motel room, who can afford to live within a thousand miles of work, and who doesn't have to work when he's ill.

 

[Rasmus]

If someone could do as good a job on a project as a competing employee but would work for a much cheaper rate, then hiring that person is advantageous.

Yes, iff all other factors can be assumed to be equal. Unlikely, though.

Unconventionally and effectively educated individuals would work for lower rates right now since fewer people would hire them.

I am too tired to work my way through this right now, but it smells strongly of circular reasoning.

drkitten, institutional sovereignty referred to the absolute authority of an institution. That is, the belief that a school or college is perfect and a better one should not be started.

Well, rumour has it the number of universities in the world is >1, so I guess your point is kinda moot.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I spent about 8 years working as an Interpreter for the Deaf. I had no training and no deaf relatives or friends until my late 20s. I actually met several interpreters and deaf people at the same time, and started learning ASL--and interpreting skills--from them. In about 6 months, I was doing some volunteer interpreting. I then went to an interpreting agency for a very scary evaluation and did well enough to be hired. When our state set up a certification and licensure requirement, I took the test and got an intermediate level certification. (They OK'd me to sit for the advanced test, but I knew I couldn't pass that level.)

I understand in education there is a strong move to attract knowledgeable professionals into the public schools as teachers. I imagine someone with good credentials in an appropriate field need only take some sort of standardized test and they could be good teachers.

I've seen one of those basic skills test for kids about to graduate with a bachelor's and a teaching certificate. I certainly HOPE no one can get through a 4 year program and have any problem with a test like that! I have no problem with allowing people to bypass the education major and simply sit for a much more difficult test.

As I understand it, anyone is allowed to take the bar exam. You needn't have a law degree to sit for it.

 

[lightfire22000]

Ah, so this whole thread is an argument against the imaginary people in your head who hold that belief.

I'm sorry. I thought you were one of the reality-influenced posters. Now I know better.

drkitten, first of all, I doubt you thought I was influenced by reality. That would have been a compliment and you’ve written nothing positive about me. Although few people claim to hold the views that I described, many people certainly act as though they do. Standards of knowledge are often ignored and even sharply criticized as people tend to value a piece of paper more than one's on the job ability. As a result, there is a shift in lectures from useful, practical lessons to extremely specific points of theory and style. This is alienating many people from learning.

Yes, iff all other factors can be assumed to be equal. Unlikely, though. .

It’s not as unlikely as one would think at first glance. A lot of college graduates work at jobs that had hardly anything to do with what they studied in college. Many of these people, when asked, have claimed autodidactic tendencies on the job.

Well, rumour has it the number of universities in the world is >1, so I guess your point is kinda moot.

True, but the university system is becoming more and more consolidated. More and more, universities are becoming homogenized in terms of curricula and governing regulations, at least in the United States. Also, new institutions are under increased regulation and appear to be imposing a guild like mentality on their students. For instance, many institutions appear to discourage “engineering technicians” from trying to become “engineers.” Thomas Edison, Philo Farnsworth, Nikola Tesla, Oliver Heaviside, and Michael Faraday would have all been barred from advancement if some of these agencies had there way. There also appears to be considerable opposition from institutions to people who want to use physician assistant training as a stepping stone to becoming a physician. So universities could be different in name and buildings only.

 

[lightfire22000]

I understand in education there is a strong move to attract knowledgeable professionals into the public schools as teachers. I imagine someone with good credentials in an appropriate field need only take some sort of standardized test and they could be good teachers.

That's only remotely true from a legal perspective. Teaching is regulating by labor unions that have damaged the education system. Someone who passes the certification test, which by the way can take a year to confirm, may be eligible to teach for a couple of years before tenure. However, after that, they have to update their certification with senseless classes that exist purely to serve bureaucratic rule. They criticize teaching subject fundamentals as teaching "content" and encourage dog and pony shows and posters for the wall. On a side note, kids who have aced Algebra II are denied graduation because they didn't take Algebra I on occasion.

 

[martu]

If someone could do as good a job on a project as a competing employee but would work for a much cheaper rate, then hiring that person is advantageous. Unconventionally and effectively educated individuals would work for lower rates right now since fewer people would hire them.

You pay peanuts....

 

[D'rok]

In my experience, it isn't the autodidacts who are complaining about the education system. Autodidacts are usually the students who go above and beyond the lessons presented through self-initiative and an internal drive to learn. They are a segment of the very top mark getters in university. Those who are bitter and don't strive for excellence because they claim to be autodidacts usually aren't. Or they have some other issue blocking them.

There's also the truly delusional self-described autodidacts like our resident physics cranks over in the Science forum.

@lightfire
If you really are an exceptionally self-motivated learner, take the opportunity you have as a college student to distinguish yourself from your peers. Why not use your skills to strive for excellence? In other words, suck it up buttercup. We all have to jump through hoops to get noticed in the professional world. Accreditation is one of those hoops. If you have the inherent ability to jump higher than others, then you only have yourself to blame if you sit on the ground and sulk.

 

[Holler Hoojer]

Lightfire22000,

Some of your points are well thought out and valid; some are off-target.

Your criticism of schoolteacher certification is spot-on. The preparation is homogenized and process-oriented. Persons from outside this system have difficulty obtaining teaching certification, but that is partially as it should be. Many school systems are not primarily in the business of delivering content. Thus, school teachers generally spend lots of time on discipline, individualized educational plans, parent conferences, repairing the Ritalin fog machine, meetings, pep rallys for the sports teams, and so on, but not so much on content. Many school systems do have teachers with very good content creds, but those tend to get shunted to AP classes.

In some areas there is a canon of knowledge that is needed in order to spend the first day on the job. A Physician's Assistant is not a junior Physician but allied. It is not reasonable to expect a PA to be able to beome a Physician through OJT. That rather Draconian memorization/lack of sleep/intense grilling/cut-throat competition that Physicians go through is not duplicated in the PA curriculum. Some may say that sort of preparation is outdated or even bad, but it produces people who can roll out of an on-call cot at a dead run when they hear a "Code Blue" at 3:15 am and begin treatment of the patient within 45 seconds of the code. Even for senior Physicians who are required to do that, it produces surgeons who are able, while repairing a seemingly minor hernia to deal with the aneurism that suddenly blows.

The certification cuts both ways in terms of level of education. One might have a PhD in Mechanical Engineering, but is in no way qualified to act as a bridge welder. There is an apprenticeship process required in which the welder-to-be gains the approval and acceptance of his peers. Frankly, when I'm halfway across the Chesapeake Bay, I don't want to have to think whether the guys that welded that bridge were trained to AWS standards - I want to just know.

We could do a better job of defining standards, and skill levels, for professions. I, for one, would like to see university professors be able to demonstrate that they know how rather than what prior to obtaining tenure.

 

[Rasmus]

It’s not as unlikely as one would think at first glance. A lot of college graduates work at jobs that had hardly anything to do with what they studied in college. Many of these people, when asked, have claimed autodidactic tendencies on the job.

Yes, but that's different. They usually aren't doctors, lawyers or nasa engineers, are they?

There certainly are jobs that do not require a specific degree, and I would assume those are also the jobs that you could do without a degree alltogether. (Again, having a completed degree is a characteristic that can be used to filter applicants, and it will be easier for those with a degree.)