Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

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I can understand why you all are too afraid to leave the safety of your JREF seeing all the responses so far.

Only on JREF would you be allowed to get away with everything you do here, on a neutral site most of your false arguments would be stopped before they even got posted.

LOL! Like I said you're really bad at this. Do you actually believe what you're saying or are you doing it just for show? Or perhaps you think that if you repeat it enough it will magically come true?

And I'll repeat the terribly inconvenient question you keep ignoring again just for kicks: By what mechanism was the top section turned to dust? Come on twoofer, what are you afraid of?
 
http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/north_tower_collapse.mpeg

very clear video in which you can see nearly the entire top section turn to dust before the bottom section even begins to fall

I disgree with your interpretation of this video. It is clear that a large quantity of dust is being emitted as the collapse progresses, but as a result of this it is impossible to determine how much of the top section remains intact after the first few storeys of drop; it's obscured by the dust produced. "Nearly the entire top section" is a rather vague statement; it would be more helpful to form an estimate of the proportion of the top block released in the form of dust, with the assumptions behind the calculation justified, so that we actually have something to discuss.

Dave
 
1 Carry your opponent’s proposition beyond its natural limits; exaggerate it.

2 Use different meanings of your opponent’s words to refute his argument.

3 Ignore your opponent’s proposition, which was intended to refer to some particular thing.

And of course with the added...

"ridicule, ridicule, ridicule"

Nice job for just one sentence

Well then please indulge my next question. In your opinion, did the top of the building turn to dust before the bottom started to collapse?
 
Yes exactly the top moves down and is nearly completely gone before the bottom portion beneath the impact zone begins to collapse. So where does the dissappearing portion of that top section go? Does it just miraculously slide into the 95 percent air of the rest of the building beneath it? Because the exterior of the bottom portion of the building, the portion just below the damaged area has no visible reaction to the building falling into it. It is simply there 1 moment and the next it is being pulverized to dust as well just like the top 16 floors were. There might have been 3-4 floors left of the top 16 floors when the very top floor beneath the impact zone finally started to collapse and disintegrate to dust.

So what happened to those floors if they were not pulverized?



38 Become personal, insulting and rude as soon as you perceive that your opponent has the upper hand.

Steve you might want to take this in when you have an hour.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en&v=TjwPIsTEulg&gl=US
 
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99.99913 percent of engineer do not support your failed ideas. Go ask them if you ever define your conclusions.

So you can't back up your claim and so resort to ...

38 Become personal, insulting and rude as soon as you perceive that your opponent has the upper hand.

http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/north_tower_collapse.mpeg

very clear video in which you can see nearly the entire top section turn to dust before the bottom section even begins to fall.
Here you say the top turned to dust. The top has steel. How did the steel turn to dust?

Now I know you see exactly what I said but you lack the ability to admit you are ever wrong. Of course it's because it's not that you were wrong but that you deliberately misquoted me for your straw man
 
I disgree with your interpretation of this video. It is clear that a large quantity of dust is being emitted as the collapse progresses, but as a result of this it is impossible to determine how much of the top section remains intact after the first few storeys of drop; it's obscured by the dust produced. "Nearly the entire top section" is a rather vague statement; it would be more helpful to form an estimate of the proportion of the top block released in the form of dust, with the assumptions behind the calculation justified, so that we actually have something to discuss.

Dave

36 You may also puzzle and bewilder your opponent by mere bombast.
If your opponent is weak or does not wish to appear as if he has no idea what your are talking about, you can easily impose upon him some argument that sounds very deep or learned, or that sounds indisputable.

Thankfully we do not need to rely on your "interpretation" of the video. Yes a lot of dust is thrown up but there is enough empty air to see clearly enough
 
Steve let's ignore your lack of video interpretation skills for now. How exactly was the top portion turned to dust? Why are you ignoring this question? Are you a closet Judy Wood supporter?
 
36 You may also puzzle and bewilder your opponent by mere bombast.
If your opponent is weak or does not wish to appear as if he has no idea what your are talking about, you can easily impose upon him some argument that sounds very deep or learned, or that sounds indisputable.

I'm doing no such thing. I'm simply asking you to state your argument more quantitatively. You've argued that nearly all the upper block was turned to dust, but that none of the steel in that block was turned to dust. A request for clarification seems reasonable in the circumstances.

Dave
 
1 Carry your opponent’s proposition beyond its natural limits; exaggerate it.

2 Use different meanings of your opponent’s words to refute his argument.

3 Ignore your opponent’s proposition, which was intended to refer to some particular thing.

And of course with the added...

"ridicule, ridicule, ridicule"

Nice job for just one sentence

Its a pity that your new found 'arguement winning formula' isnt working Steve. Anything new to prove an inside job? Oh well, maybe tomorrow.
 
Steve let's ignore your lack of video interpretation skills for now. How exactly was the top portion turned to dust? Why are you ignoring this question? Are you a closet Judy Wood supporter?

You really seem keen on discussing this...cool so I'll see you here?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2008/10/caught_up_in_a_conspiracy_theo.html?page=1#comments

You will be able to discuss this with quite a few truthers as well and pwn us all when you put us in our places
 
I can understand why you all are too afraid to leave the safety of your JREF seeing all the responses so far.

Only on JREF would you be allowed to get away with everything you do here, on a neutral site most of your false arguments would be stopped before they even got posted.

http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/north_tower_collapse.mpeg

very clear video in which you can see nearly the entire top section turn to dust before the bottom section even begins to fall ....
Like this lie? You are saying the top turned to dust, nearly all of it, but you don't present evidence, or say what did it.

I can't wait till you post at the BBC and here your proof how you have changed the world with your evidence. Or lack of it. Over 7 years of failure, now is a good time to break from the pack of liars and present the only evidence truther stuff you have piles of and have kept very secret.
 
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I'm doing no such thing. I'm simply asking you to state your argument more quantitatively. You've argued that nearly all the upper block was turned to dust, but that none of the steel in that block was turned to dust. A request for clarification seems reasonable in the circumstances.

Dave

No what you are attempting to do is confuse the issue...more smoke and mirrors.

All one has to do is take a look at the video and see that what I said is true. It is clear in the video. Asking all these details is an attempt to use the concept of...

"Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of a corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one's self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all."
-- Michael Rivero

...by trying to get me to jump through your irrelevant hoops and hope that others will see your response as excuse enough to keep believing in the OCT.

If you really want to discuss this one further then come on over to...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2008/10/caught_up_in_a_conspiracy_theo.html?page=1#comments

...and we can discuss it to your hearts content.

Hey i've spent time on your forum why not spent some time on a neutral site?
 
You really seem keen on discussing this...cool so I'll see you here?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2008/10/caught_up_in_a_conspiracy_theo.html?page=1#comments

You will be able to discuss this with quite a few truthers as well and pwn us all when you put us in our places

No. You made your insane claim here so it's only fair that you defend it here. Plus I'm not going out of my way to argue on some comment section of a blog post just because some twoofer said I should.

But I'll take your refusal to state a possible mechanism for the dustifictaion of the WTC as a concession that you don't have one. Which is not surprising since your crazy fantasy is not even possible.
 
Like this lie? You are saying the top turned to dust, nearly all of it, but you don't present evidence, or say what did it.

Beachnut, you will not make me angry so you might as will give up that line. You again and again insist on repeating like a mantra (you sure do love your mantras) that I said the top turned to dust, implying I said the entire top, and I have shown already a few times that you are lying when you say that. Everyone sees it so why continue?

As for presenting evidence, the video is the PROOF but you cannot admit you were deliberately misleading everyone, deliberately misquoting me, deliberately lying.

If you really want to continue this conversation why not come over to ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2008/10/caught_up_in_a_conspiracy_theo.html?page=1#comments
 
No what you are attempting to do is confuse the issue...more smoke and mirrors.

All one has to do is take a look at the video and see that what I said is true. It is clear in the video. Asking all these details is an attempt to use the concept of...

"Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of a corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one's self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all."
-- Michael Rivero

...by trying to get me to jump through your irrelevant hoops and hope that others will see your response as excuse enough to keep believing in the OCT.

If you really want to discuss this one further then come on over to...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2008/10/caught_up_in_a_conspiracy_theo.html?page=1#comments

...and we can discuss it to your hearts content.

Hey i've spent time on your forum why not spent some time on a neutral site?

Did you stamp your feet and say la la la la la la when you wrote that? What number in your 'win an arguement formula' does that cover Steve? Are you not getting the desired attention here? Nobody cooing here Steve? Nobody giving you any kudos here Steve? Trot along now, your audience at the BBC awaits.
 
Straw man argument again!!!

Show me where I said the steel members were turned to dust in any scenario. But you needed that for your straw man argument didn't you.

You clearly stated the top portion was 'nearly completely' turned to dust before contact with the lower section :

"If I managed to show ... the top portion of that building was nearly completely pulverized to dust before the bottom section even began to fall...as the video clearly shows... "

This can only be taken to mean that you believe the video supports your "turned to dust" claim. But the top portion contained a high %age of steel.

Therefore your statement must include the proposition that nearly all of the steel in the top portion was turned to dust.

This is your position Steve, not mine. If you want to disown it, go ahead.
Don't accuse me of a "strawman" when all I'm doing is repeating precisely what you have claimed. I repeat - name one mechanism in such a scenario where most of the steel could be 'turned to dust'
 
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Originally Posted by A W Smith
For shame Steve-0. so people who ignore the demise of a steel, glass and concrete edifice known as building seven are moral cowards? Not satisfied that your poisoning of the well had any effect on observers on the sidelines you move to Ad Hominem logical fallacies? Are your more compassionate to building materials than the dead? You want to talk about moral cowards Steve-0? My Irony meter exploded.
I can certainly understand why your irony meter exploded, that whole paragraph you wrote is just so ironic it could not survive it.
Originally Posted by A W Smith
For shame Steve-0. so people who ignore the demise of a steel, glass and concrete edifice known as building seven are moral cowards?
That is a combination of ...

1 Carry your opponent’s proposition beyond its natural limits; exaggerate it.

and

2 Use different meanings of your opponent’s words to refute his argument.

and

3 Ignore your opponent’s proposition, which was intended to refer to some particular thing.
Your numbered argument style fallacies aren't working and falling flat Steve-0. Because That's exactly what you implied . No exaggeration needed.

Originally Posted by A W Smith
Not satisfied that your poisoning of the well had any effect on observers on the sidelines you move to Ad Hominem logical fallacies? Are your more compassionate to building materials than the dead? You want to talk about moral cowards Steve-0? My Irony meter exploded.
poisoning the well? LOL that's rich coming from a JREF "debunker", I think your irony meter would have hit the moon from that comment alone. So I am poisoning the well by stating ...

Quote:
A plausible excuse to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all? This pat little response is a perfect example of what the Mike Rivero quote was talking about, about ...

"...most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all."

So just throw up any answer at all and most people will use that as an excuse to not think for themselves.
Your words Steve-0, Not mine.It's perfectly clear to us what you are saying. Trying to paste some sort of band aid on it with "debate" points which are non sequitur to begin with wont make your wound go away.
Seems to me my comment was stating that the reply I was talking about was just an excuse thrown up and that any excuse would have done because it does not take much of an excuse to allow moral cowards not to think for themselves. But you knew that
yes Steve-0, we know that. as explained by me above.

Originally Posted by A W Smith
Are your more compassionate to building materials than the dead?
So now you are accusing me of being an inhuman monster with no feelings? No that is not an exageration of what you are saying, if you are trying to imply I care more for buildings than the dead that is exactly what you are saying. Can you say ...38 Become personal, insulting and rude as soon as you perceive that your opponent has the upper hand
You said it yourself Steve-0, People who state reasons why few recall the events of building 7 are making excuses for "moral cowards". This means you are more attached to building seven than to other 9/11 sites that actually had human victims. I'm not exaggerating anything. it is perfectly clear to us what you are saying.
But that one never seems to get old for JREF "debunkers"

Tell my how hard are you working to get out troops home alive and in one piece?
Appeal to emotion much Steve-0? why would I argue over at an obscure BBC blog site when I'm a US citizen? JREF is hosted in the US.
So there is still no one brave enough to leave the safety of the JREF forums and take a trip over to the BBC blog I posted and debate the evidence there? Really does not surprise me one bit
You came here Steve-0, We are not duty bound nor obligated to follow you all over the net. Like i said in a post earlier that you completely ignored. Take your moderation issues up in the Forum Management section. And don't be such a Whiner.
 
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"Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of a corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one's self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all."
-- Michael Rivero

Please make more use of Holocaust deniers in your posts about 9/11 "truth". This will make it easier to recruit the last 2 or 3 anti-semites who haven't heard of your movement yet.
 
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