Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not

[Dancing David]

Could you give us poor mortals a good analogy for Double layer then?

So really, they were just 'magic words' you were waving around?

Really, you did not study what you were promoting?

 

[Sol88]

Well Alfven was crackpot enough to lose all his money in a kind of pyramid scam.

However sad that is.

However, Alfven's ideas have nothing in common with anything in your mind. You, Sol88 do not understand plasma physics.

Sounds like the rest of us idiots stuck with the monetary system, which is one big pyramid scam!

i understand plasma physics well enough and I'm surprised you Tusenfem are so...well stubborn! I mean lets look at this statement again.

The idea of the skin of a balloon being a DeBye length is preposterous.

For the rest, the surface area of a double layer is totally unimportant, however, I cannot explain that to you as you do not understand plasma physics.

What form does a DL take in plasma?

Cellular? A "bubble"? A sheet? a Tube? (Birkeland current)

And the surface area is very important! From your(Tusenfem) wiki page!

Particle acceleration: The potential drop across the double layer will accelerate electrons and positive ions in opposite directions. The magnitude of the potential drop determines the acceleration of the charged particles. In strong double layers, this will result in beams or jets of charged particles.

And if the DL's surface area is large so is the area that can accelerate charged particles!

also

Energy supply: In a certain limit, the voltage drop across a current-carrying double layer is proportional to the total current, and it might be thought of as a resistive element (or load) which absorbs energy in an electric circuit. Anthony Peratt (1991) wrote: "Since the double layer acts as a load, there has to be an external source maintaining the potential difference and driving the current. In the laboratory this source is usually an electrical power supply, whereas in space it may be the magnetic energy stored in an extended current system, which responds to a change in current with an inductive voltage"

and

Cellular nature: While double layers are relatively thin, they will spread over the entire cross surface of a laboratory container. Likewise where adjacent plasma regions have different properties, double layers will form and tend to cellularise the different regions

Ummm...like a bubble or maybe a "balloon"?

And the kicker

# Energy transfer: Double layers facilitate the transfer of electrical energy into kinetic energy, dW/dt=I.ΔV where I is the electric current dissipating energy into a double layer with a voltage drop of ΔV. Alfvén points out that the current may well consist exclusively of low-energy particles.[42] Torvén et al. also report that plasma may spontaneously transfer magnetically stored energy into kinetic energy by electric double layers.[43]

Lets see your gravity only cosmology do that!!!

Hell let's chuck in a quote from The Permanent and Inductive Magnetic Moments of Ganymede M. G. Kivelson & K. K. Khurana and M. Volwerk

Magnetometer data from Galileo’s multiple flybys of Ganymede provide significant, but not unambiguous, evidence that the moon, like its neighboring satellites Europa and Callisto,
responds inductively to Jupiter’s time-varying magnetic field.

Swap Jupiter for the Sun and Jupiter Moons for the planets and .....That's what the electric universe is all about!

 

[Reality Check]

Swap Jupiter for the Sun and Jupiter Moons for the planets and .....That's what the electric universe is all about!

I agree - the electric universe is about woo, woo and even more woo!

 

[Sol88]

If Thunderbolts website is so disliked here, then why does thier articels so closely follow "mainstream" plasma physics?

let's put this into context with my post above on DL's

From TPOD

The behavior of active plasma at every point is influenced—or driven—by conditions in the rest of the circuit. Fluctuations are often driven to form double layers (DLs)—thin regions of opposite charge build-up with large voltage drops between them. DLs are electrical phenomena that do not appear in observations of magnetic fields. The electric forces in DLs can be very much stronger than gravitational and mechanical forces. Gas theory modified to encompass “magnetism” will overlook them.

DLs separate plasma into cells and filaments that have different qualities—different temperatures or densities or compositions. These cellular and filamentary structures show up especially in planetary nebulas, but they can be invisible in optical wavelengths and appear in x-ray or radio observations.

DLs are “noisy,” emitting radio waves over a broad band of frequencies. They can sort matter into regions of like composition and condense or rarify it. DLs can accelerate charged particles to cosmic ray energies.

And DLs can explode. Energy from the rest of the circuit flows into the break, and the explosion can release much more energy than is present locally. This effect is seen in flares on the sun and is likely responsible for the outbursts of novas, the so-called “exploding” stars.

The electromagnetic forces in currents squeeze the conducting channels into thin thread-like filaments. These filaments attract each other in pairs, but when they get close, instead of merging, they spiral around each other. Pairs of pairs, and more, may entwine into plasma “cables” that can transmit electrical power over enormous distances. We see these cables as the “jets” that connect Herbig-Haro stars and active galactic nuclei with DLs that may lie many light-years away.

But the “cables” can be invisible, too. These make up the galactic circuits that power the stars, analogs of the power lines , invisible at night, that carry electricity from generating stations to city lights. The “flux tube” that connects Jupiter’s moon Io to the bright spots in Jupiter’s auroras is an invisible plasma cable, undetected until a space probe flew through it.

The new vision of the cosmos connects components at one scale into circuits that are coupled to and driven by circuits at larger scales. This new cosmos is laced with hierarchies of interacting circuits.

You, Tusenfem, have a papers printed on this chit and you still wallow in mainstreams refusal to accept a universe dominated by plasmas and electric currents???

 

[Sol88]

I agree - the electric universe is about woo, woo and even more woo!

Whooh boy!!!


The Jovian system is a solar system in miniature! except Jupiter has not achieved the fictions internal P-P fusion!

 

[Reality Check]

Whooh boy!!!

The Jovian system is a solar system in miniature! except Jupiter has not achieved the fictions internal P-P fusion!

Whooh boy!!!
What are "fictions internal P-P fusion"?

 

[Reality Check]

If Thunderbolts website is so disliked here, then why does thier articels so closely follow "mainstream" plasma physics?

let's put this into context with my post above on DL's

From TPOD

You, Tusenfem, have a papers printed on this chit and you still wallow in mainstreams refusal to accept a universe dominated by plasmas and electric currents???

For Tusenfem: He does not need to "wallow". He and every other comeptant scientist has the physical facts to show that the universe is not dominated by "plasmas and electric currents".

One more time for the especially dumb (especially the really dumb authors of the book that is being sold by the web site that Soll88 is obsessed by):

1. The maximum known Debye length occurs in the IGM (intergalactic or intracluster medium).
2. This is 10,000 metres or 10 kilometres.
3. A "few tens of Debye lengths" is thus a few hundred kilometres.

But let us be generous to any weird EU/PC proponent who is currently ignoring basic physics: multiply this by a factor of a million. What scale would this fictitious EM effect extend over? A few hundred million kilometers rounded up is 1000 million kilometers. This is 0.0001 light years or 6.7 AU and fits comfortably within the Solar System.

 

[tusenfem]

i understand plasma physics well enough and I'm surprised you Tusenfem are so...well stubborn! I mean lets look at this statement again.

Yeah, I don't have any friends either.

What form does a DL take in plasma?
Cellular? A "bubble"? A sheet? a Tube? (Birkeland current)

A DL is made up of two sheets.
So it will not be a bubble, it might be at the edge of a bubble, depending what kind of bubble you are talking about, coz as usual you give insufficient information. Never mind..
A Birkeland current is a current and thus cannot be a double layer, because a double layer is an electric field.

And the surface area is very important! From your(Tusenfem) wiki page!
And if the DL's surface area is large so is the area that can accelerate charged particles!

The surface area is not important at all, it will only effect the amount of accelerated particles, which is a secondary thing. If you want to discuss something in (plasma)physics you are interested in things like current density as e.g. j•E is the important quantity, the energy dissipation.

also [energy supply]
and [cellular nature]

don't see why energy supply would be mentioned here, but if you like. A DL is a load because of the dissipation, and sure, bigger ones will dissipate more energy, yadayadayada
cellular nature, first of all there is the comment "will spread over the whole cross section of the container" This is rather poorly written, it means that if you have a plasma column in the lab, like explained in messages above, the double layer will be as "wide" as the plasma column is thick, read the message above.
Then you put the cause-and-effect the wrong way around, you seem to imply that DL create a cellular nature, which is not true. The plasma consists already of regions with different characteristics, and thus is already "cellular" and the DLs form at the boundaries of these different regions.
I will have to clarify this on the wiki page, as clearly in editing by myself and e.g. Art Carlson combined has led to some bad sentences. I also noted that one of the equations is wrong at the beginning.

And the kicker [energy transfer]
Lets see your gravity only cosmology do that!!!

Ehhh, what is kicking here?
Lemme see, gravity turns gravitational energy into kinetic energy.
Electromagnetics turns electrical energy into kinetic energy.
Ehhhhhh

Hell let's chuck in a quote from The Permanent and Inductive Magnetic Moments of Ganymede M. G. Kivelson & K. K. Khurana and M. Volwerk

Swap Jupiter for the Sun and Jupiter Moons for the planets and .....That's what the electric universe is all about!

Suuuuuuuuuuure, please enlighten us how and what you exactly mean here. It is well known that the magnetospheres of the planets react to the change in the solar wind magnetic field. That IS a whole field of mainstream research, which you might have missed, it is called Space Physics, and probably only in Mercury do the solar wind changes have effect on the core of the planet. We discussed that a while ago, guess you are a bit feeble in the mind, that you already forgot about it. It started about here in post 2290, or maybe a bit earlier even.

Then your quote from TPOD (thundercrap), and you ask why it follows mainstream? Well, thundercrap can just as easily copy stuff as you do, Sol88, but if you want to have a closer look, let's go":

The behavior of active plasma at every point is influenced—or driven—by conditions in the rest of the circuit. Fluctuations are often driven to form double layers (DLs)—thin regions of opposite charge build-up with large voltage drops between them. DLs are electrical phenomena that do not appear in observations of magnetic fields. The electric forces in DLs can be very much stronger than gravitational and mechanical forces. Gas theory modified to encompass “magnetism” will overlook them.

So, looking at the bold. I guess thundercrap tries to say here that DLs are not described by MHD, well DUH. But they are easily described using plasma physics, so trying to make common sense sound profound here.

DLs separate plasma into cells and filaments that have different qualities—different temperatures or densities or compositions. These cellular and filamentary structures show up especially in planetary nebulas, but they can be invisible in optical wavelengths and appear in x-ray or radio observations.

No, DLs do not separate plasma into cells, and most definitely not in filaments. Filaments are supposed to be created by the Biot-Savart law and Bennett pinches, see Peratt, and then some useless info about being visible or not in whatever wavelength.

DLs are “noisy,” emitting radio waves over a broad band of frequencies. They can sort matter into regions of like composition and condense or rarify it. DLs can accelerate charged particles to cosmic ray energies.

Yes they can emit radio emission. I have no idea what he means with the bold part. The fact that double layers accelerate particles would be clear to anyone, and if the DL is strong enough (relativistic) then yes it could in principle get to cosmic ray energies, but those would be very few and in between, because then you also need a driver that maintains the relativistic potential drop (see above about power supply and dissipation).

And DLs can explode. Energy from the rest of the circuit flows into the break, and the explosion can release much more energy than is present locally. This effect is seen in flares on the sun and is likely responsible for the outbursts of novas, the so-called “exploding” stars.

I very much doubt that DLs can explode. This was an idea by Alfvén, to be used in the Earth's magnetotail, which has not been observed and has been replaced by the current-disruption model.
If the DL could explode, the only energy it would be able to release would be the electric energy "stored" in the DL.
Flares on the sun are not DLs they are created by reconnection. DLs may exist in the current carrying prominences on the sun.

The electromagnetic forces in currents squeeze the conducting channels into thin thread-like filaments. These filaments attract each other in pairs, but when they get close, instead of merging, they spiral around each other. Pairs of pairs, and more, may entwine into plasma “cables” that can transmit electrical power over enormous distances. We see these cables as the “jets” that connect Herbig-Haro stars and active galactic nuclei with DLs that may lie many light-years away.

This is the Peratt model, simplified now to "create a star" or something. Cables of plasma and the DLs just put in to make it sound interesting. What use it is to claim that "DLs may lie many light years away" is beyond me. Soundls like he wants to make something ordinary sound profound.

If there are currents in plasmas then double layers can be created, point.

But the “cables” can be invisible, too. These make up the galactic circuits that power the stars, analogs of the power lines , invisible at night, that carry electricity from generating stations to city lights. The “flux tube” that connects Jupiter’s moon Io to the bright spots in Jupiter’s auroras is an invisible plasma cable, undetected until a space probe flew through it.

Sure, or the cannot.
Then once more Peratt's model.
Then the Io flux tube, which is indeed invisible, so what? Thundercrap seems to want to make a point here, but what exactly? That you cannot see electricity?

The new vision of the cosmos connects components at one scale into circuits that are coupled to and driven by circuits at larger scales. This new cosmos is laced with hierarchies of interacting circuits.

Well, this is a useless comment. What would be useful is when Thundercrap truly would use this "information" above, and show something, e.g. by calculating how an "exploding double layer" would work, or how he will use "double layers to sort the plasma in regions of like composition and condense or rarify it." Now THAT would be useful information, instead of his now and then misinterpretation of mainstream science, at which he is best, when you read through his website.

You, Tusenfem, have a papers printed on this chit and you still wallow in mainstreams refusal to accept a universe dominated by plasmas and electric currents???

Indeed, I have papers on double layers and magnetospheric physics, plasma physics, Europa's flux tube, Ganymede's magnetic field, heck I just got my "reconnection in Venus's magnetotail" paper accepted. You see, Sol88 I do not refuse the important role of plasma physics in the universe, but I try to stave it all on observations and data, not on perceptions like thundercrap.

A good example is the plasma universe idea by Peratt about his 35kpc wide and 3.5 Gpc current channels in the universe carrying 10¹⁹ Amps, and not just one, but bezillions to create all the galaxies. It is no wonder that he only published that kind of chit into IEEE publications, because he is the guest editor.

If you can present me a model that will change my mind, then I will gladly do so. So, work it out Sol88, because apparently:

i understand plasma physics well enough

Unfortunately, you never show this understanding here on the board.

 

[Sol88]

Tusenfem wrote

A DL is made up of two sheets.
So it will not be a bubble, it might be at the edge of a bubble, depending what kind of bubble you are talking about, coz as usual you give insufficient information. Never mind..
A Birkeland current is a current and thus cannot be a double layer, because a double layer is an electric field.

A DL is made up of two sheets? Flat square sheets? That do not close on each other? hoe does that work? why wouldn't the charges just sneak off the end of your flat sheets?

or do they form a bubble, cell like structures?

 

[Reality Check]

Tusenfem wrote

A DL is made up of two sheets? Flat square sheets? That do not close on each other? hoe does that work? why wouldn't the charges just sneak off the end of your flat sheets?

or do they form a bubble, cell like structures?

Can you read Sol88?

Tusenfem's reply is clear - a double layer is made up of 2 layers.
They need not be flat or square. They probably can be "wrinkled" (slightly since there are EM forces dominating in double layers !) and non-square.

DLs do not "form a bubble, cell like structures". Cellular structures may form DLs.

Tusenfem will be better able to answer what happens at the edges of the sheets.

DLs are nothing to do with plasma cosmology...



One more time for the especially dumb:

1. The maximum known Debye length occurs in the IGM (intergalactic or intracluster medium).
2. This is 10,000 metres or 10 kilometres.
3. A "few tens of Debye lengths" is thus a few hundred kilometres.

But let us be generous to any weird EU/PC proponent who is currently ignoring basic physics: multiply this by a factor of a million. What scale would this fictitious EM effect extend over? A few hundred million kilometers rounded up is 1000 million kilometers. This is 0.0001 light years or 6.7 AU and fits comfortably within the Solar System.

 

[Sol88]

Lets just take another random mainstream article and their use of PR terms of gas and plasma, which from all the arguments we have had during these posts is a classic example.

The Delicate Trails of Star Birth

An image released today by the Gemini Observatory brings into focus a new and remarkably detailed view of supersonic "bullets" of gas and the wakes created as they pierce through clouds of molecular hydrogen in the Orion Nebula.

snip

The Orion bullets were first seen in a visible-light image in 1983. By 1992, images taken at infrared wavelengths led astronomers to conclude that these clumps of gas were ejected from deep within the nebula following an unknown violent event connected with the recent formation of a cluster of massive stars there

snip

Clouds of iron atoms at the tip of each bullet glow brightly (blue in the Gemini image) as they are shock-heated by friction to around 5000°C (9,000°F). Molecular hydrogen, which makes up the bulk of both the bullets and the surrounding gas cloud, is destroyed at the tips by the violent collisions between the high-speed bullets and the surrounding cloud.

snip

The blue features in the Gemini image correspond to the shocked regions where the iron is fluorescing. The orange regions are the glowing hydrogen molecules in the bullet's wakes. In this image, the wakes ("fingers") behind each of the iron-gas bullets are resolved into filaments for the first time ever. These might well be the actual sheaths enclosing the shock waves created as the bullets travel through the cloud.

Now excuse my obvious total lack of understanding of plasma physics, but in light of what we have been discussing in the above posts then wouldn't the correct language be more plasma orientated?

oh and here is the pretty picture! (and smilie)

http://www.gemini.edu/images/stories/press_release/pr2007-3/fig1.jpg

 

[tusenfem]

Lets just take another random mainstream article and their use of PR terms of gas and plasma, which from all the arguments we have had during these posts is a classic example.

Ahhh, feeling pressed in a corner and changing the subject again?

Blurb!!!! (this has already been discussed here) Blurb!!!

 

[tusenfem]

Tusenfem wrote

A DL is made up of two sheets? Flat square sheets? That do not close on each other? hoe does that work? why wouldn't the charges just sneak off the end of your flat sheets?

or do they form a bubble, cell like structures?

Blurb!!! (read Alfven) Blurb!!!

 

[edd]

Lets just take another random mainstream article and their use of PR terms of gas and plasma, which from all the arguments we have had during these posts is a classic example.
<snip>
Now excuse my obvious total lack of understanding of plasma physics, but in light of what we have been discussing in the above posts then wouldn't the correct language be more plasma orientated?

You expect total accuracy from a mainstream article?

 

[Sol88]

Blurb!!! (read Alfven) Blurb!!!

you know I did that and the impression I got was this is what electric currents in a plasma does?

 

[Dancing David]

Whooh boy!!!


The Jovian system is a solar system in miniature! except Jupiter has not achieved the fictions internal P-P fusion!

Ah, now you think something else makes the stars shine.

Sure whatever.

 

[Dancing David]

You read Alven and understood, or you read a misimpression from Dunderbolts, seriously?

The fact that you had to ask why the DeBye length is important might indicate you haven't understood anything.

 

[tusenfem]

you know I did that and the impression I got was this is what electric currents in a plasma does?

puke!

 

[Zeuzzz]

Thought I would post this here, as it has nothing to do with plasma cosmology:

Magnetic 'Tornadoes' Keep Mercury's Atmosphere in Place. Otherwise, it would disappear very fast

 

[Zeuzzz]

Right. Lets creat a line.

Could this discussion be taken here to this new thread I started:

Electric universe theories here


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