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When it comes to math ...

Just thinking

Philosopher
Joined
Jul 18, 2004
Messages
5,169
Why is it that whenever it comes to mathematics (including basic arithmetic and/or geometry) so many folks, including highly skilled individuals in their fields, fail so miserably? Just watch any game show or listen to any radio talk show (or just your average Joe).
 
Mathematics is an abstraction of life. Some people can use and manipulate abstractions; some people seeming cannot, just as some people learn linearly and some are more spatially oriented. Perhaps with another 100 or 200 years of study of the brain we will discover what happenstances lead to which abilities; maybe it all has to do with early conscious attitudes.

Why are many mathematicians seemingly ill-adept at social graces? I don't know, but I think that the answer to either will provide insight to both.
 
Why is it that whenever it comes to mathematics (including basic arithmetic and/or geometry) so many folks, including highly skilled individuals in their fields, fail so miserably? Just watch any game show or listen to any radio talk show (or just your average Joe).

I suspect part of it is that it's become socially acceptable to be terrible at math, and so people who don't do well at it basically give up learning math somewhere around highschool. And after that they avoid doing math whenever possible - balancing a checkbook is about the only math many people do, and they'll usually use a calculator so they aren't really doing even that much.
 
Mathematics is an abstraction of life.

Abstraction? It way well be our most accurate representation of reality. But then again, it may depend on what you mean by "life".

Some people can use and manipulate abstractions; some people seeming cannot, just as some people learn linearly and some are more spatially oriented. Perhaps with another 100 or 200 years of study of the brain we will discover what happenstances lead to which abilities; maybe it all has to do with early conscious attitudes.

It's odd ... because I've seen people with highly trained skills (electricians, auto repair technicians, carpenters) seemingly avoid anything mathematic in nature like the plague.
 
Just watch any game show or listen to any radio talk show (or just your average Joe).


It depends on the situation. I consider myself pretty good at math, but when put on the spot to do a calculation in my head, I can easily trip myself up.
 
I have often noticed that when maths, of any kind, crops up in daily life, some people seem almost proud to be poor at it, and dismiss it as a geeks thing.
When one of my employees needed help with the most basic of calculations i would attempt to show her, without use of a calculator. For my troubles she would cover her ears and do the; "na,na,na,na I don't want to know how, just tell me the answer" routine. Managing to make me seem strange for knowing how to do it?
 
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Why is it that whenever it comes to mathematics (including basic arithmetic and/or geometry) so many folks, including highly skilled individuals in their fields, fail so miserably? Just watch any game show or listen to any radio talk show (or just your average Joe).

That may be true, but it bugs me a whole lot more that they can't spell.

(This comment is not directed at any individual on this forum or at any post in this thread.)
 
There's a definite stigma associated with being good at maths, or at least, as has been said, a certain pride taken in being bad at it (them) (the maths).

It's not just maths, though. Anything that requires even the slightest bit of work to learn seems to be looked down upon lately. Basically, a "oh you think you're better than me?" sort of attitude towards anyone who actually CAN do maths, or uses reasonably decent grammar, or anything similar. I think it's terrible.

Sure, not everyone can be great at everything, but taking pride in being BAD at something so basic, deliberately refusing to try to learn it? When did willful ignorance become a bragging right?
 
Why are many mathematicians seemingly ill-adept at social graces? I don't know, but I think that the answer to either will provide insight to both.

I wonder how much of this is confirmation bias. This falls right in with the assumption that 'smart people don't have any common sense.' Sure, we know awkward people who are good at math, but I know plenty of awkward people who aren't any good at math either. Additionally, I know lots of people who are good at math who are perfectly well adjusted. We notice those who fit our stereotypes, in short.

As far as the original question, I have to agree that it's largely because it is socially acceptable to be ignorant of math. Much the same goes for knowledge of the sciences or having a good vocabulary. If you use too many 'big words' some people get upset and assume you are trying to embarrass them. It's pretty sad.

I have a feeling that in Japan ignorance of math would not be a source of pride, for cultural reasons.
 
1) People don't like to be wrong. When it comes to math, there's only one right answer. Well, except for when there can be multiple solutions, but that's not the kinda math we're talking about.

2) Unless you do it every day, the confidence that you're doing it right goes way down. See #1.

3) Lots of people never really "get" math. They learn to follow some rules, but that doesn't mean they understand why they "carry" numbers to the next column.

Most importantly, there's no reason to suppose that all humans have an equal aptitude for math. I suppose I have a natural ability because I find it easy to do basic calculations in my head (sometimes they happen automatically). At the same time I can't draw worth a ****. It's not because I lack the fine motor skills - I'm a musician, and I'm quite handy doing delicate work like soldering. Drawing freehand is just difficult. By contrast I enjoy photography and working with elements already created.

I suppose that asking some people to divide 185 by 5 invokes reaction similar to what I would feel if asked to draw a picture of a dog sniffing a flower.

As for the comment about spelling, that's yet another skill. Some people can read and comprehend as well as converse on a high level, but there's something different that keeps them from spelling properly. Most good spellers don't consciously memorize words - they just know if it "looks right" or not. Also, some people who can speak quite intelligently cannot write even basic sentences. Just ask elementary school teachers who will sit with a kid for 15 minutes trying to get one sentence written. The kid can talk a mile a minute and read fluently, but when it comes to writing, something just isn't right. Strange.
 
I could care less whether or not people understand math or not. What pisses me off is the anti-intellectualism inherent in the whole idea that people would be intimidated by having to learn something new. I don't care what it is, if I need to learn it for some reason then I'll put in the sweat-work needed and learn what needs learnin'. I don't care who you are you should be able to pick up any of the basic skills needed in a variety of areas if you put some darn work into it. I've consistently found that hours doing something = getting better at it. Not exactly a big secret (BTW just sitting around and wishing is a good way to NOT accomplish anything).


Now does someone want to teach me convolution?
 
I could care less whether or not people understand math or not. What pisses me off is the anti-intellectualism inherent in the whole idea that people would be intimidated by having to learn something new. I don't care what it is, if I need to learn it for some reason then I'll put in the sweat-work needed and learn what needs learnin'. I don't care who you are you should be able to pick up any of the basic skills needed in a variety of areas if you put some darn work into it. I've consistently found that hours doing something = getting better at it. Not exactly a big secret (BTW just sitting around and wishing is a good way to NOT accomplish anything).

You're presuming that people "have" to learn it for some reason and don't. Quite frankly, I find that idea absurd. I have not encountered very many accountants who balk at doing addition and subtraction. I don't find very many statisticians going "la la la" when somebody explains how to do standard deviation. Hell, carpenters add and subtract fractions every day, but it's not often they need to calculate the total amount of the payments paid on their truck.

What I see is that sometimes in our daily lives we encounter the "need" to do something out of the ordinary. Math happens to be something that pops up more frequently than others. When I need to make an "Garage Sale" sign to hang on a telephone pole, I do it on the computer because I couldn't draw and color the letters freehand very well. Are you pissed off at me for not spending my evenings with "Drawing Freehand for Dummies" and a sketch pad?

I know I'm different. When I see two numbers, I almost always calculate the difference. If I see the year a movie was made, I automatically calculate how old I was when it came out. If I hear somebody say, "What's 12 times 13?" I just do it in my head even if I'm not asked. When I fill my gas tank, I always look at my trip odometer and calculate my MPG. Yet in my daily life I don't need to do any of that.

A friend of mine had to take remedial math in college. He was extremely bright. If you engaged him in a debate on politics, world history or current events, he'd smoke you. It was a blow to his ego that even basic math was such a struggle for him. He received plenty of ridicule about it.

Meanwhile, I know some very scientific types and plenty of software developers. They work with all sorts of abstract concepts every single day. If you try to engage them in a debate on some topic - any topic, the words escape them. They can't explain the things they understand.

But nobody seems to get all snooty about it. Artists accept that not everyone can draw. Musicians accept that some people can't even clap to the beat. Writers accept that not everyone can express themselves with words. They all accept that some people believe that even an extensive amount of effort is just not worth the paltry results.

But it seems like the mathematically inclined tend to get snobby with those who prefer to avoid math. Suppose there's a room full of people and somebody says, "If 9 people donated a total of 72 dollars, what was the average donation?" It seems like you'd expect everyone to give the answer.

Well, what if in that same room someone said, "Who would like to come draw a cat's face on the blackboard?" Do you think everyone should volunteer? It's really easy. In the world of drawing, it's basic addition. Would you look down on anyone who said, "No way. I suck at drawing."
 
Again, it's not about the math. It's about the attitude. If someone truly busts ass and still doesn't get it then I'll pity them a bit but I'm not going to be mad at them. I just want to see people put the effort in. This is just because I've learned that no matter how bad you are at something putting effort in almost always pays off. If your friend really truly was unable to get it, good for them, at least they tried! I just don't like the idea that I would ask someone to do something and they would consider it "too hard" for them to the point where they were intimidated and didn't even want to try learning it.

I'm not talking about ridiculous hard core programming stuff here, but basic tasks that anyone should be able to learn if they put in the mental sweat.

Again, it's the attitude not the results that I'm looking for (the result, as I said above, tend to take of themselves when you put the work in). This is true for learning math, learning to read, learning an instrument or pretty much anything else.
 
Math is hard. Math requires work. Many people don't like the idea of getting an answer wrong. Many people need to be less lazy and work harder in school.

Can you tell I just got done grading a bunch of physics labs?
 
Math is hard. Math requires work. Many people don't like the idea of getting an answer wrong. Many people need to be less lazy and work harder in school.

Can you tell I just got done grading a bunch of physics labs?

LOL!

Have you ever (I mean this as a genuine "have you ever" not a snotty "have you ever") talked with the less mathematically inclined about how they approach relatively simple math problems? Let me give you an example:

175/7=?

How do you approach it? In my mind I just know 7*20=140. I then subtract 140 from 175 (actually, I don't - mind just automatically says "35" without any effort). What is 35/7? It's 5, of course. Thus my answer is 25. It's easy for me to hold those numbers in my head.

If I did it the long division (as taught in elementary school) way in my head, I would find it frustrating and, quite frankly, intimidating without a piece of paper and a pencil.

I spent many years in software development. My last boss, a man in his 70s who taught college as well as programmed computers for many moons, and I discussed how to teach programmers to think creatively. We both agreed that either your mind works a certain way or it doesn't. Nobody taught me how to solve the above problem like I did. Likewise, even though you could show programmers all sorts of clever ways to approach problems, some never come up with them on their own. To use a metaphor, they always use the long division method because that's a solid formula that always yields the right answer with a predictable number of steps.

Example: Suppose you had to write a program to determine the value of X given that X was an integer from 0 to 100.

* One guy loops a counter called i from 0 to 100 checking if x=i each time around. When they match, he quits and gives the answer.

* Another guy, who thinks he's being clever because he just read about a function that returns a random integer within a range, sets up an infinite loop generating a random number i and checking if x=1. Yech.

* Still another guy sees the above code and thinks, "Well, since the random number generator might repeat a number, I'm going to keep track of the numbers I've already checked so I don't check them again! I'm so smart!" This is a double-yech.

* The smart programmer writes a program that starts with the number 50 (1/2 of the range). He then checks if x>50. If not, he divides his starting number in half and checks if x>25. With just a few iterations he'll find the value of x.

How do you teach that? I never taught programming, but I did supervise and train a number of programmers. In my experience programmers either came up with that last solution or they didn't.
 
Maths is a skill (actually several different skills) that is different from other skills. So it is possible to be very good at one skill (like being able to repair something) and yet hopeless at another like maths.
 
Example: Suppose you had to write a program to determine the value of X given that X was an integer from 0 to 100.

* One guy loops a counter called i from 0 to 100 checking if x=i each time around. When they match, he quits and gives the answer.

* Another guy, who thinks he's being clever because he just read about a function that returns a random integer within a range, sets up an infinite loop generating a random number i and checking if x=1. Yech.

* Still another guy sees the above code and thinks, "Well, since the random number generator might repeat a number, I'm going to keep track of the numbers I've already checked so I don't check them again! I'm so smart!" This is a double-yech.

* The smart programmer writes a program that starts with the number 50 (1/2 of the range). He then checks if x>50. If not, he divides his starting number in half and checks if x>25. With just a few iterations he'll find the value of x.

What/ Nobody came up with a (very long) Select/Case statement? Amateurs! ;)
 
LOL!

Have you ever (I mean this as a genuine "have you ever" not a snotty "have you ever") talked with the less mathematically inclined about how they approach relatively simple math problems? Let me give you an example:

175/7=?

How do you approach it? In my mind I just know 7*20=140. I then subtract 140 from 175 (actually, I don't - mind just automatically says "35" without any effort). What is 35/7? It's 5, of course. Thus my answer is 25. It's easy for me to hold those numbers in my head.

If I did it the long division (as taught in elementary school) way in my head, I would find it frustrating and, quite frankly, intimidating without a piece of paper and a pencil.
I completely failed to follow your thoughts there. I can usually do simple arithmetic in my head - this does not extend to most division.

It is only quite recently that I internalised the idea that 57 + 48 = (50 + 40) + (7 + 8). Let me tell you that realisation made mental arithmetic a whole lot easier! I never picked up the similar trick for division though.

Give me a pen and paper and I'll calculate a long division in seconds. I just can't do it in my head. I never picked up the knack.
 
LOL!

Have you ever (I mean this as a genuine "have you ever" not a snotty "have you ever") talked with the less mathematically inclined about how they approach relatively simple math problems? Let me give you an example:

175/7=?

How do you approach it? In my mind I just know 7*20=140. I then subtract 140 from 175 (actually, I don't - mind just automatically says "35" without any effort). What is 35/7? It's 5, of course. Thus my answer is 25. It's easy for me to hold those numbers in my head.

If I did it the long division (as taught in elementary school) way in my head, I would find it frustrating and, quite frankly, intimidating without a piece of paper and a pencil.

What do you find intimidating about it? You only have to hold a one number in your head to calculate this the 'traditional' way, divide 7 into 17 remember the answer and carry the remainder. No divide again and combine. Don't you picture it in your head like you were writing it down? That's how I do it anyway.
 
I suspect part of it is that it's become socially acceptable to be terrible at math

I think this is pretty much it. There's no point trying to come up with excuses about how some people think differently from others and that they may be good at other things. UncaYimmy's point about drawing is almost right, except that things like basic addition are the mathematical equivalent of drawing a stick man. I don't expect everyone to be able to draw a lifelike dog, but I really don't think expecting them to be able to draw a circle with a couple of lines on is too much.

Even more important is that you can easily go your whole life without ever needing to draw anything, but everyone uses numbers practically every day. If you ever buy things, drive, do your taxes, cook, watch the news, there's numbers everywhere. And a lot of the time it's quite important to be doing things with them yourself, so that you know you're not being short changed or going to be investigated by Inland Revenue, or whatever.

It's not snobbery to expect functioning adults to be able to do maths that most 6 year olds find easy, especially when they're likely to be using it throughout their whole life. And it's certainly not snobbery to find it utterly ridiculous that they're actually proud of their ignorance.
 

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