Merged 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[beachnut]

It would be nice if you gave a clear synopsis of the answer . I don't think the importance of this can be underestimated. There is video evidence and the other facts are pretty nuch as I laid out above unless you have reason to contradict them.

You never explain what it means. You have no goal but to regurgitate failed moronic delusions from 911TruthLies which you are unable to see as lies.
You have failed to understand 911 and post delusions instead and short off topic posts; you are not a skeptic of 911TruthLies, you make the big evidence posts:

Patience my lad.

Calm down. Take some deep breaths.

Me too.

I doubt that anybody will think that you don't want to answer the questions Dave.

By now they will be quite certain that it's not because you don't want to nswer the questions.

I was looking for your conclusion on what you are trying to say... ...nothing but junk. You post junk; weakly apologize for terrorists and let them off the hook for murder by making up lies about 911.

 

[A W Smith]

attention craving bill. taking arguments from ignorance to the next level.

Answered one page back bill. It is clear all you desire is attention. you know the answers exist but paging back or searching is not good enough for you. Your "opinion" that the cables "looked a little light" is meaningless to us. Stay ignorant if that's your comfort level. Weather the mast was bolted, welded, whatever, Is just a time waster.

 

[bill smith]

Oh, I disagree. I'm sure anyone reading your posts on this forum will be unable to think of any reason why anyone would decline to answer any of your questions, aside from not having any answers.

Dave

All this writing to explain why you won't answer the questions...Jeez, you could have answered twice by now. lol

 

[Seymour Butz]

The source is NIST NCSTAR1-1 page 12, which states that:


It's fairly clear that this source is claiming that the primary design function was to support the antenna. I haven't tried to check back any further to see whether NIST was correct in this claim.

Dave

Yes, I know what your source is. But it seems crazy to me that such a large and integral part of the structure would be built primarily to support an antenna. Although if you go by JUST that quote, I could see how that impression could happen.

Besides, there's other parts that suggest that it was "additionally" used as a support for the antenna. This suggests to me that the hat truss primarily serves another purpose.

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-2ADraft.pdf

page 38/230

At the top of each tower, hat trusses interconnected the core columns with the exterior wall panels and
provided a base for the antennae.

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-1A.pdf

page 91/166

According to the 1995 Structural Integrity Inspection report that was written by LERA, “the hat
trusses…control individual column expansion and contraction due to uneven column temperatures”
(LERA 1995). Additionally, the hat trusses in WTC 1 provided stability for the 362 ft tall TV mast that
was centered on the top of that tower.

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-2ADraft.pdf

page 108/230

Located between floor 107 and the roof in both towers, the hat truss interconnected the core columns and
the columns of the exterior walls. The hat truss system distributed both gravity loads and wind loads
between the core and the exterior walls.

 

[Toke]

Bill,
You have still not answered my questions to the WTC plumbing.

 

[Toke]

It´s here

 

[tfk]

Seymour,

I've pointed this out too to troofers.

A better comparison would be breaking out the windows vs poking holes in the screen.

If one wanted to do a proper comparison of what effects plane strikes would have, you would compare it to shooting holes in the screen door's frame.

My purpose in taking on Mr DiMartini's comments are a little more extreme. (He is a bona fide hero, for his selfless actions on that day.) But his understanding of structures was terrible.

There is a very common story running around that the towers were "designed to withstand the collision of a 707".

I am confident - for a number of reasons - that this is simply urban myth, that became legend within the towers. One that Mr. DiMartini heard & repeated.

The reason that it cannot be true is that we could not REALLY even accomplish that design today, with all the high powered computers & FEA programs available. Les Robertson admits to that fact here:

"We should not and cannot design buildings and structures to resist the impact of these aircraft. Instead, we must concentrate our efforts on keeping aircraft away from our tall buildings, sports stadiums, symbolic buildings, atomic plants, and other potential targets"
"Reflections on the World Trade Center"
http://www.nae.edu/cms/Publications/TheBridge/Archives/7344/7480.aspx

And this certainly could not have been done before the era of generally available software & hardware in 1964.

The book "Cities in the Sky" has a very interesting section on just this topic. And it appears to me that John Skilling did a very quick calculation to show that

1. the total "toppling" load that would be imparted on the towers by an impact would be less than the max design wind load. IIRC, it turns out to be slightly greater than the wind load, but still acceptably in the ballpark, according to Skilling. (And he turned out to be right about that.)

and

2. that the building would still stand if he surgically removed the external columns equal to the wing span of that jet.

And then produced a paper that undercut the attempts of Lawrence Wien (sp.??) who was trying to stop the WTC project.

I know that Roberton also did a later study that NIST referred to, but could not produce.

Anyway, it is that myth that I've tried to fight in discussions with other twoofers in the past. As you might expect, their response is, shall we say, frigid.

LoL.

tk

 

[BigAl]

Seymour,



My purpose in taking on Mr DiMartini's comments are a little more extreme. (He is a bona fide hero, for his selfless actions on that day.) But his understanding of structures was terrible.

There is a very common story running around that the towers were "designed to withstand the collision of a 707".

I am confident - for a number of reasons - that this is simply urban myth, that became legend within the towers. One that Mr. DiMartini heard & repeated.

For what it's worth, Robertson is quoted at some length in Report From Ground Zero (2002) by Dennis Smith.

http://snurl.com/j54gc​

(It's Google Books, it doesn't allow cut and paste.)

I just got to reading it and after years of listening to Twoofer make ◊◊◊◊ up and make accusations about the first responders, it's a powerful and refreshing read.

 

[Jackanory]

Neither are you apparently:-

#855 http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138715&page=22
''Look at thiis photo and the lack of support cables and then look at the blue structure and imagine how the support for the giant 30-storey mast worked without being attached to the core columns.''
http://www.city-data.com/cpic/ufiles516.jpg antenna hi-res

#858 http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138715&page=22
Shows the cables perfectly clearly. (not my post)
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4755482#post4755482

Tut tut jack. Back to Strawman school you go .

Oh Bill. You posted it again. Thanks. Proved yourself to be a fraud, again. Classic stuff. Tut Tut Bill. Oh well, you continue backing a donkey with no legs crawling backwards. Back to dellusion you go Bill.

 

[tfk]

For what it's worth, Robertson is quoted at some length in Report From Ground Zero (2002) by Dennis Smith.

http://snurl.com/j54gc​

(It's Google Books, it doesn't allow cut and paste.)

I just got to reading it and after years of listening to Twoofer make ◊◊◊◊ up and make accusations about the first responders, it's a powerful and refreshing read.

Thanks Al,

I'll check it out.

tom

 

[beachnut]

http://www.nae.edu/cms/Publications/TheBridge/Archives/7344/7480.aspx

The WTC was designed for an impact of a 707 at 180 mph low on fuel.
In the NIST report they talk of a white paper with a 707 at 600 mph but it was not produce by Robertson or those who designed the WTC towers but it was pushed out as a great things of the WTC by the Port Authority; they failed to check with Robertson.

http://www.nae.edu/cms/Publications/TheBridge/Archives/7344.aspx

You can download the article and he explains more of the design.

This is much better than the poor articles in papers, books, and other sources where Robertson was asked off the cuff questions on his design from the 60s. Robertson's design was verified to repel a slow speed impact by other engineers after 911. It was posted in one of the threads where they found the the higher sections of the WTC towers would stop an aircraft at 200 mph. The lower sections would repel a higher speed aircraft.

 

[bill smith]

Dr. Steven Jones at UC Davis-May1, 2009
http://johnp.blip.tv/

 

[beachnut]

Dr. Steven Jones at UC Davis-May1, 2009
http://johnp.blip.tv/

If you want to see a liar in action; this is the video! Hoffman was there too spreading his meth version of nano-thermite ceiling tiles in the WTC. Two dolts telling lies to fool idiots for a long time and gullible people for moments until they begin to think for themselves.

So if you do not think for yourself this is the loaded gun special feature of stupid ideas to help you load your empty mind with stupid ideas to post all over the Internet.

This is a great example a liar who makes up anti-intellectual conclusions and tries to hide his lies in science. I love how he avoids telling everyone the penthouse of WTC7 fell into the building and destroyed the interior before the facade falls. LIAR = Jones; he was fired for being a liar.

Why does BillSmith post delusions from Jones?

Jones makes everyone agree with him if you put fire next to bare steel it will not fail... If you say it over and over it comes true?

Will not fail...

See, fire does not... oops
Jones said hurl! I was waiting for Wayne's World to save the presentation! 69:40 one can hope one has not died and is in purgutory... paint solvent? rigorous review on their nano paper... check this, check that... woo ahhhhhhhhhh; am I dead... Jones' brain is.

He said where are the core columns! He leaves out the energy due to gravity collapse which is more then 150 TONS of TNT as he looks at the ruble pile. Dolt alert.

The best part of this presentation Jones actually admits he was "fired". It was funny how Jones stands by his first paper which is a lie without scientific support which is why he was fired. AT 37 MINUTES.

I was watching this tripe; but I am doing my family email admin duties and other tasks while listening to Jones in the background. He is a sick dolt who is dumber than dirt or just insane. Save you time do not watch this junk unless you want to be bored by an idiot who spews dirt dumb ideas.

So BillSmith posts a video; a long video of a failed fired cold-fusion physicists who made up lies about 911 and BillSmith can't figure it out. If he watched the video and had knowledge he could comment on Jones being a fraud.

After watching Jones I have to go do something more intellectual like digging a ditch, a worthy task for anyone including a PhD or me

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Oh, No! It's Making Well-Reasoned Arguments Backed With Facts! Run!

 

[bill smith]

If you want to see a liar in action; this is the video! Hoffman was there too spreading his meth version of nano-thermite ceiling tiles in the WTC. Two dolts telling lies to fool idiots for a long time and gullible people for moments until they begin to think for themselves.

So if you do not think for yourself this is the loaded gun special feature of stupid ideas to help you load your empty mind with stupid ideas to post all over the Internet.

This is a great example a liar who makes up anti-intellectual conclusions and tries to hide his lies in science. I love how he avoids telling everyone the penthouse of WTC7 fell into the building and destroyed the interior before the facade falls. LIAR = Jones; he was fired for being a liar.

Why does BillSmith post delusions from Jones?

One fascinating revelation Jones makes in this lecture has to do with the WTC dust. Remember that the Whitehouse ordered the EPA to doctor their statements about air quality on 9/11 ? Well thousands of people now have serious breathing difficulties and are even dying s a result of breathing the air the Whitehouse cynically said was safe. But one more interestng spinoff from this is that it looks like the red-grey chips are in those people's lungs which in itself is absolute proof that the chips were in the dust to start with. That's another escape route for the perps effectively closed. (They can no longer dispute where the red grey chips came from)
http://johnp.blip.tv/

 

[Grizzly Bear]

One fascinating revelation Jones makes in this lecture has to do with the WTC dust. Remember that the Whitehouse ordered the EPA to doctor their statements about air quality on 9/11?

Tell me again what the EPA warnings about the air quality have to do with the "nano thermitic compounds" that Jones claims to be a mechanism in the tower's collapse. (aside from the obviously stupid idea that a painted on layer of "nano termite" can melt through 1/4 inch steel -- on impact floors no less)

Well thousands of people now have serious breating difficulties and are even dying s a result of breathing the air the Whitehouse said was safe.

And understandably a number of people have raised this matter before... yet not a single rational person is tying air quality to a sooper sekret demolition. May I ask the relevance to the context you're trying to connect this to?

But one more interestng spinoff from this is that it looks like the red-grey chips are in those people's lungs which in itself is absolute proof that the chips were in the dust to start with.

No kidding...

 

[Dog Town]

Remember that the Whitehouse ordered the EPA to doctor their statements about air quality on 9/11 ?

Do you have ANY evidence of this?

 

[beachnut]

One fascinating revelation Jones makes in this lecture has to do with the WTC dust. Rmember that the Whitehouse ordered the EPA to doctor their statements about air quality on 9/11 ? Well thousands of ppeople now have serious breating difficulties and are even dying s a result of breathing the air the Whitehouse said was safe. But one more interestng spinoff from this is that it looks like the red-grey chips are in those people's lungs which in itself is absolute proof that the chips were in the dust to start with. That's another ecsape route for the perps effectively closed. (They can no longer dispute where the red grey chips came from)
http://johnp.blip.tv/

What does dust have to do with anything? This is your A-game? Failure.

Everyone who works sites like the WTC cleanup know to use respirators! Who forgot to use their respirators. On 911 thousands of people were exposed to massive amounts of dust that were serious health issues! What is new? You failed to make a point again.

There was not thermite used on 911! Zero; Jones made up the idea all by himself due to insanity, stupidity, or some bias against bush. Take you pick. If you believe Jones idiotic ideas you are free to do so. You are free to believe the nut case ideas of Jones and spread them all over; it is self-critiquing.

You presented a dumb video spewing delusions slowly and in such a calm manner by the very personable dolt Dr Jones who has nut case ideas on 911.

He has 9 tons of termite; he made this up out of his own thermite active mind. This is just in the dust; so the thermite failed to burn? 9 tons failed to burn? Jones is pure stupid hiding in a personable old insane man.

>100 minutes of pure stupid

 

[bill smith]

' The dead whisper from the dust ' Now THAT catches the attention. What a powerful line.

 

[FineWine]

One fascinating revelation Jones makes in this lecture has to do with the WTC dust. Remember that the Whitehouse ordered the EPA to doctor their statements about air quality on 9/11 ? Well thousands of people now have serious breathing difficulties and are even dying s a result of breathing the air the Whitehouse cynically said was safe. But one more interestng spinoff from this is that it looks like the red-grey chips are in those people's lungs which in itself is absolute proof that the chips were in the dust to start with. That's another escape route for the perps effectively closed. (They can no longer dispute where the red grey chips came from)
http://johnp.blip.tv/

No, I don't remember the White House ordering the EPA to doctor statements about air quality, and neither does anybody else. Looks like you're lying again.

By the way, have you ever given a second's thought to why the White House would want people to breathe contaminated air?

Of course I'm being silly!