Suicide as a Rational Option

[Soapy Sam]

This is one where I have learned I differ from the normal view.

So far as I'm concerned, the right to die when you choose is the one true human right which everyone should have. Without it, we are prisoners of conscience and of society.

While I would like to die of a bullet in the head in bed with someone else's wife at about 90 years of age, neither my present physical condition nor my family history makes that likely. Failing that, I would expect to take my own life at some point.
That's as rational a statement as any I can think of, in my opinion.
I don't see this as a mark of failure, of cowardice or of despair, any more than I would see a choice of lunch in those terms. I think we talk a lot of Judaeo-Christian crud about suicide, frankly.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

So far as I'm concerned, the right to die when you choose is the one true human right which everyone should have.

As must have been stated in this thread, losing someone to suicide brings about horrific grief that's, to my knowledge, usually quite a bit worse than 'regular grief'. A healthy person simply has no right to inflict that kind of pain on other people. For some perspective, death threats are forbidden by law, even though they usually don't directly cause physical pain. Sexual assault is viewed with the hatred it is not because of the physical pain caused by the assault, but by the mental anguish that follows in its wake. Our society has taken a stand that it's wrong to inflict physical and mental pain on another person.

While I would like to die of a bullet in the head in bed with someone else's wife at about 90 years of age, neither my present physical condition nor my family history makes that likely. Failing that, I would expect to take my own life at some point.
That's as rational a statement as any I can think of, in my opinion.
I don't see this as a mark of failure, of cowardice or of despair, any more than I would see a choice of lunch in those terms.

However, you said at any time. As in, a healthy 14-year old killing himself because his girlfriend dumped him.

I think we talk a lot of Judaeo-Christian crud about suicide, frankly.

I view it just as much as a Golden Rule issue - I wouldn't want to lose a dear, close old friend, so I have no right to make her lose me.

-ETA-
[QUOTE='toad]But, we can't be absolutely sure. And you cannot take the chance. If there's truly something wrong, it needs to be discovered, and dealt with.

I'm sorry, but when it comes to kids, there is NO alternative. The first time, you come in, all flags flying. You do what you can to get a child help. [/QUOTE]I like to express it this way. There are two possibilities when someone says they're going to kill themselves:

a) They consider suicide.
b) They're being manipulative.

Given this, I find it best to get them help either way. If a is true, you've potentially saved a life. If b is true, you've taught an egocentric moron that suicide is something you don't joke about. If he suddenly finds himself face to face with the school nurse or in the car on the way down to the doctor for his idle threats, there's a chance he won't make them again unless he's serious. It's the same as chest pains, really - if you kid walked into the room after a fight with you, with his hand on his heart, complaining that he was having serious pains, you'd call 911, wouldn't you?

 

[Safe-Keeper]

I am so weary, I came to the forum site because I remember reading posts from other people who are going through stuff just like this, it was a thread called "wow, am I down", but that was such a long time ago I can't find it, then I read your post Roadtoad, thank-you, I am pretty alone out here.

This one?

Oh, and . I haven't lost anyone to suicide, but several have come close.

 

[fromdownunder]

If you don't believe the moral stricture that suicide is a sin, what is stopping you?

I think that I am hardwired to try to stay alive, one of the outcomes of billions of years of evolution and the survival instincts of my human and pre-human ancestors.

I can give reasons, but they are as likely rationalisations for this basic acceptance that about life v everything else, all the other options are less satisfactory.

Norm

 

[TheAnachronism]

One of the main features of rationality in human beings is the ability to make educated predictions about the future. For people with a terminal illness, it makes sense that they'd evaluate the situation rationally, and find suicide as an option, because the future outcome can be reasonably deduced from present conditions.

However, for people living life and going through everday situations, it doesn't seem like suicide is a rational option, given that making accurate predictions about future events and future emotional states awould be almost impossible. I mean, if you've had someone close to you die, you can predict that in 1 year, they'll still be dead and you'll still miss them, but that can't predict any other variables in your life that would make suicide less savory.

This is different than whether or not someone has the right to take their own life.

 

[Soapy Sam]

However, for people living life and going through everday situations, it doesn't seem like suicide is a rational option, given that making accurate predictions about future events and future emotional states awould be almost impossible. I mean, if you've had someone close to you die, you can predict that in 1 year, they'll still be dead and you'll still miss them, but that can't predict any other variables in your life that would make suicide less savory.

This is different than whether or not someone has the right to take their own life.

This supposes that the only reason for deciding it's time to die is that you are in despair or desperately ill, or in some similar mental state.
You wouldn't decide to buy a car under those conditions, so why would you choose to buy a farm then?
Deciding when an exit is appropriate is precisely something we should do when we are rational, not when we've already lost the plot.
Don't take life too seriously- you'll never get out of it alive.

 

[Roadtoad]

And to add further to the drama...

My MiL is back in the psych ward. She's refusing necessary medication, (which would mean she would die within two weeks), she's refusing to see anyone, and she's refusing to eat. She says she wants to die.

At the rate she's going, she's about to get her wish.

 

[applecorped]

And to add further to the drama...

My MiL is back in the psych ward. She's refusing necessary medication, (which would mean she would die within two weeks), she's refusing to see anyone, and she's refusing to eat. She says she wants to die.

At the rate she's going, she's about to get her wish.

...

 

[Roma]

This one?

Oh, and . I haven't lost anyone to suicide, but several have come close.

Nope it wasn't that one, I think it was a thread by Checkmite a few months ago. I identified with the problem in that thread because it was about an adult child who was hopelessly lost, so to speak.

Also the police report about that 16 year-old girl I mentioned earlier who hanged herself, they think it might have been in some way unintended suicide.
The nail she used to hang herself from with her thin scarf was so small that it shouldn't have held. Her neck snapped.
This is a frightening thought when I remember the first time my teenager attempted to hang herself. She used a strong belt for a noose and put the rest through the top of the door frame but when she jumped the belt slid through.
So when the police tell me that she is only seeking attention with her repeated attempts at hanging herself over the years I now know how things can go terribly wrong.
She has a court ordered psych assessment next week.

Thanks for the I really, really need a hug, I guess we all do.


And Roadtoad I'm sorry for what is going on with you MiL

 

[5sisters]

Everyone has rights. But no one has the right to hurt others. If you commit suicide. You hurt the ones you leave behind. God gave you life, let him end it. Everyones days are numbered. If you don't like the way you live, change it. Only you can do that.

 

[Tapio]

God gave you life, let him end it.

Then God's all drunken drivers who've ever killed someone. So this means S/He's the only one who has the right to hurt others?

 

[Thom_]

I'm in two minds about suicide. I agree that suicide can be seen as a right, for why should one be trapped in a life which provides no happiness and fulfillment? This is an idea yes, however on the other hand, suicide hurts loved ones most of all, and no one should be allowed to hurt the people that love them the most. I guess I tend to think that suicide is not the answer 99 per cent of the time, though in (very) extreme cases, suicide may be an answer.

 

[stilicho]

I'm in two minds about suicide.

1) Pleasure.
2a) Emotional Responsibility.
2b) Financial Responsibility.
3) To leave a legacy.

Try exchanging the word "suicide" for "work".

Is the decision to become employable or employed any more or less rational?

 

[Pup]

Everyone has rights. But no one has the right to hurt others. If you commit suicide. You hurt the ones you leave behind. God gave you life, let him end it. Everyones days are numbered. If you don't like the way you live, change it. Only you can do that.

I must admit, I'm with Soapy Sam on this one. The pain that one causes to a person by forcing them to stay alive against their will, needs to be balanced against the pain that one would suffer if that person died. It's not always about forcing others to behave the way you want, in order to prevent your own pain.

 

[Thom_]

Try exchanging the word "suicide" for "work".

Is the decision to become employable or employed any more or less rational?

Excuse me if I've missed something here, but I don't understand the link between 'suicide' and 'work'?

 

[IMST]

Everyone has rights. But no one has the right to hurt others. If you commit suicide. You hurt the ones you leave behind. God gave you life, let him end it. Everyones days are numbered. If you don't like the way you live, change it. Only you can do that.

If no one has a right to hurt others, then the family left behind does not have the right to expect a suffering family member to linger.
Also, when talking to a mostly atheist audience, invoking an imaginary sky-fairy is not likely to aid your point any.

 

[Thom_]

The 'God gave you life' argument is pretty weak in this context. If God gave you a life, did God also make your life so hard that you would commit suicide?

(I'm not saying there is no God, I'm just saying that you can not argue whether suicide is rational because of God)

 

[Nonpareil]

This seems like a mirror-image of the whole abortion thing to me. Or has someone said that already?