Amway TV ad

[corplinx]

Comparing stock dividends to.... well.. Don't even get me started. I hope that was just a poorly chosen comparison and not a sincere one.

 

[Furcifer]

Now you are getting the picture. The funny part is that it's incredibly worse than you probably are even picturing. Those on the inside, as usual, can't see it until they leave. Go read some of the testimonials that are around, it's absolutely astounding.

Well I have and it is astounding. The same things are repeated over and over. If you fail it's because you aren't trying hard enough, people are mislead to believe joining will get them wholesale prices even if they do nothing, without being told they need to spend a ridiculuous amount every month in order to do so, the "pins" make most of their money off of "tools" or networks etc. and very little off the product, the motivation and "good feeling" you get are worth the price of admission, people can't put a figure on what they actually made but they know it's a loss (and their fault for not trying hard enough)...

Much of what we've seen expressed here or what we just know it to be. The products are a front for the scam, plain and simple. Misrepresentation, lying, misleading statements, brainwashing are just part of the Amway game.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

Those on the inside, as usual, can't see it until they leave.

I can personally attest to this, much to my embarrassment.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I can personally attest to this, much to my embarrassment.

Honestly you shouldn't be. They are very very good at manipulating people.

 

[icerat]

How about this. Find me a LINE OF SPONSORSHIP that doesn't profit from tools or push people to attend meetings where they have to pay.

There's plenty of "non system" LOSs. Heck, 80% of IBOs don't participate in a system! Some do so with some success, I have a friend in New York who is a non-system Ruby. He volume is primarily from retail sales.

As you would know, every IBO is effectively an LOS in itself. 80% of IBOs do not participate in a system.

 

[icerat]

My research says Costco vitamins are much cheaper:

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Produc...me:BC&lang=en-US&Sp=C&search=vitamins&topnav=

$16 (when not on sale as they were when I looked) for 500. You're right, I'd rather pay $24 for 180 vitamins than $16 for 500. That is a MUCH better deal.

I have the nagging feeling I made a mistake. A trump card like this can't be that wrong, can it?

Your mistake is that the post was about JoeCool and his dishonesty, not about the price of vitamins. I just used whatever vitamins he picked from Costco, I've no idea which ones they were. The Nutrilite Daily and generic synthetics aren't really the same product, not unless you believe synthetic vitamins can replace food, so it's not really a sensible comparison anyway, but that's for another debate.

 

[icerat]

Well, why not? You've implied that NewtonTrino is lying...

No, I believe he is misunderstanding the setup, or at least misunderstanding what I'm talking about. He seems to think when some Diamond under Yager starts to make/sell/whatever there own tools, then that makes them significantly different. It doesn't. They come from the same "culture", have been taught and use many of the same techniques, and often share speakers and recordings.

I'm trying to establish whether he has any experience with groups that have nothing to do with Britt/Yager and never have. He keeps avoiding the question.

And you've continued to imply that I am lying...

No, I think you believe what you're saying. I just think you're wrong. Georgia Dome has a maximum capacity of 71,228. The only way to get that is "in the round", ie a stage in the middle with 360degrees of seating. You've indicated there was a "behind the stage" with empty seats, so clearly it wasn't set up like that, so just as clearly "capacity" for that event was significantly less than 70,000.

I don't think you're lying, I just think you're wrong.

 

[icerat]

What a totally brainwashed statement to make. I'm not sure what the profit margin is but the math, as usual with Amway, isn't adding up. 70 000 people, at an average cost of about $1000 per person (accomodations, tickets, lost wages, flights etc.). You've got to sell a lot of product to cover the expenses. It just doesn't make sense.

Wow, just wow. You're either easily amused of brainwashed.

And it's incredible what an expert you are on something you've never been too.

The day Amway goes public you can talk about shares.

Amway Asia Pacific was public for a decade, as was Amway Japan.
Amway Malaysia is public, and is regularly a recommended "buy"
There's probably others.

Well this thread sure has changed my mind. I suspected there was something fishy with Amway, but was willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. After seeing the job they did on IR, and how long the effects have lasted I'm not as neutral. I'd stay away from it and never let anyone I know get messed up in the "culture".

ROLFMAO!!! Yup, those pesky independently confirmable facts of icerat's that don't match my view just CONFIRM that icerat is messed up!

hahahahahahah

 

[icerat]

Comparing stock dividends to.... well.. Don't even get me started. I hope that was just a poorly chosen comparison and not a sincere one.

You were the one that claimed because I earn a "residual" type income from a business, then that means it's a pyramid!

Talk about "poorly chosen comparison" indeed ...

 

[NobbyNobbs]

No, I think you believe what you're saying. I just think you're wrong. Georgia Dome has a maximum capacity of 71,228. The only way to get that is "in the round", ie a stage in the middle with 360degrees of seating. You've indicated there was a "behind the stage" with empty seats, so clearly it wasn't set up like that, so just as clearly "capacity" for that event was significantly less than 70,000.

I don't think you're lying, I just think you're wrong.

It's not maximum capacity, it's permanent seating. There's a big difference. And it's not 71,228, it's 71,250

For events like concerts and...oh, I don't know, conventions...they put chairs on the main floor as well. You are implying I don't know how to count. I assure you, I'm quite experienced at it.

It seats 71,228 for football, and can hold approximately: 75,000 for concerts, 53,000 for basketball when the dome is fully open and 40,000 for basketball and gymnastics when the dome is sectioned off (one half closed off by a large curtain). The record for overall attendance at the Georgia Dome is 75,892 for the 2008 SEC Championship Game in football.

Source

If you don't trust Wikipedia, here's a first-hand source.

I eagerly await your apology.

And it's incredible what an expert you are on something you've never been too.

Ironic. It's kind of like you and the Georgia Dome, isn't it?

 

[Furcifer]

Amway Asia Pacific was public for a decade, as was Amway Japan.
Amway Malaysia is public, and is regularly a recommended "buy"
There's probably others.

Oh, so you're getting an income from your shares in Amway Malaysia. I thought you were getting it from "passive income streams".

ROLFMAO!!! Yup, those pesky independently confirmable facts of icerat's that don't match my view just CONFIRM that icerat is messed up!
hahahahahahah

This makes no sense in relation to what I posted. It reads like a conditioned response to an arguement I never made. What unconfirmed "facts" do you think I am basing my decision to steer myself and others clear of Amway on?

 

[icerat]

It's not maximum capacity, it's permanent seating. There's a big difference. And it's not 71,228, it's 71,250

Apologies, my mistake.

I eagerly await your apology.

As I said, I still think it's unlikely. As I also said, I could be wrong, but I still think it's unlikely. If it matters to you, I was wrong about the maximum capacity, my mistake, I apologise. That makes it less likely you're wrong, but I'm still skeptical.

Either way, it's a pretty trivial discussion. We both agree there was lots of people! And I expect we both agree there was lots of profit. That's the essence of that discussion so there's little point in getting trapped up in the trivial.

Ironic. It's kind of like you and the Georgia Dome, isn't it?

I gave a statement of opinion based on my past experience with people's inability to accurately judge crowd size first hand (which is what was being citied) and information at hand - which I misinterpreted.

That's a different matter to giving opinions about thing of which you have no experience, and of which independent evidence suggests your opinion is likely to be wrong. It's especially a different matter when it's opinion being stated as fact.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

I gave a statement of opinion based on my past experience with people's inability to accurately judge crowd size first hand (which is what was being citied) and information at hand - which I misinterpreted.

That's a different matter to giving opinions about thing of which you have no experience, and of which independent evidence suggests your opinion is likely to be wrong. It's especially a different matter when it's opinion being stated as fact.

You still misunderstand. I did not judge. I counted.

You are giving the impression that you have an exceedingly difficult time admitting when you are wrong, even when it is about something so...as you say...trivial.

 

[icerat]

Oh, so you're getting an income from your shares in Amway Malaysia. I thought you were getting it from "passive income streams".

You're dodging. You implied that earning a "passive income" means something is a pyramid.

Are you retracting that?

This makes no sense in relation to what I posted. It reads like a conditioned response to an arguement I never made. What unconfirmed "facts" do you think I am basing my decision to steer myself and others clear of Amway on?

It's nothing to do with your "decision", it has to do with your statements on this thread.

3bodyproblem opinion:

Amway products are crap and people only buy them 'cause they think they'll make them rich

Facts -
1. Amway is one of the largest retailers in the world (Deloitte)
2. Numerous Amway products have won numerous independent awards for quality and consumer satisfaction (Readers Digest, ConsumerLabs to name two)
3. Amway provides a 100% satisfaction guarantee on their products. Send back the empty packet, get all your money back
4. Amway is currently celebrating 50 years in business
5. Amway's Nutrilite brand is the #1 best selling nutritional brand in the world, and used and endorsed by numerous top athletes and clubs (Euromonitor)
6. Amway's Artistry brand has been independently judged as a "prestige brand" (Euromonitor)
7. Amway's Artistry brand is one of the top 5 best selling "prestige brands" in the world. (Euromonitor)
8. Amway sells hundreds of millions of dollars of products to people with no connection at all to the company (TEAM vs Quixtar lawsuit)
9. The majority of "members" of Amway who buy the products do not participate in the "income opportunity" (TEAM vs Quixtar lawsuit)
10. The majority of "members" of Amway do not participate in the seminars and other education programs you seem to think exert overt influence. (WWDB, N21 published statistics)

So, we have products that win awards, regularly top consumer opinion surveys, are independently judged as "prestige class", are some of the best sellers in their categories, offer full money back guarantee if unsatisfied ... and do billions of dollars in sales every year.

And you claim people only buy them because of the "income opportunity" so that makes Amway a scam.

Your opinion does not seem to be consistent with the facts.

 

[fls]

Your mistake is that the post was about JoeCool and his dishonesty, not about the price of vitamins. I just used whatever vitamins he picked from Costco, I've no idea which ones they were. The Nutrilite Daily and generic synthetics aren't really the same product, not unless you believe synthetic vitamins can replace food, so it's not really a sensible comparison anyway, but that's for another debate.

You are correct. It isn't really sensible to compare a product which contains standardized amounts of vitamins and minerals which costs 3 cents per pill, with a product that contains non-standardized amounts of vitamins and minerals which costs 12.5 cents per pill or with the Double X which is 231 cents per day. But you already said the added value was in "the story", rather than health outcomes. So one merely needs to decide how much one wishes to pay to be told a story.

Linda

 

[Foolmewunz]

<snip>
So one merely needs to decide how much one wishes to pay to be told a story.

Linda

Apparently 8.2 billion dollars - collectively, that is.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I think Icerat is being extremely disingenious about the whole tools and BSM system. Dexter Yager and Bill Britt are the original guys that really started this scam en masse. All of the others who do it (N21) basically took the basic idea and created variations on it. Some of the themes are different but the overall message is exactly the same. The profits are the same as well although they have different ways of splitting them up. Icerat has already indicated that a) he doesn't know how much profit these organizations make and b) that he doesn't care. I would care very much if I was building this "business" because it goes directly to the bottom line profit I could expect when I was successful.

He also hasn't talked about how the upline can use this money to keep people in line and control them. One of the reasons that profit information doesn't leak out as much as it should is because of the legal framework they put you in requiring silence as well as arbitration. In the old days they didn't bother with legal, they just cut off your money if you got out of line as it was all just a wink and handshake in the old days.

The abuses were so bad that with the coming of the internet they had to come up with ways to try and hide as much of this money as possible. Now that it's well known they just use brainwashed spin doctors to try to obfuscate the issues as much as possible.

The bottom line is that much of the income of the large pins is explainable only in the context of the scam. For example earlier Icerat was talking about higher up pins making $1.5M+ a year from Amway without the tools. This would be a pretty darn good sized business but it still isn't enough money to buy some of the lifestyles that some DIAMONDS have claimed in the past. When you look at the overall portrayal of the diamond lifestyle and the reality of the money ($150k split between 2 people working) then it wouldn't be worth the hassle without the tool money. $150k certainly isn't enough to buy a multi-million dollar home, a motor coach etc. Now another few hundred thousand in tool income starts to make it look more plausible. As I was saying earlier I worked with on Emerald who was making $40k a month in tools money.

I've completely given up proofreading in this thread. These posts are more stream of conciousness at this point.

 

[NewtonTrino]

You're dodging. You implied that earning a "passive income" means something is a pyramid.

Are you retracting that?



It's nothing to do with your "decision", it has to do with your statements on this thread.

3bodyproblem opinion:

Amway products are crap and people only buy them 'cause they think they'll make them rich

Facts -
1. Amway is one of the largest retailers in the world (Deloitte)
2. Numerous Amway products have won numerous independent awards for quality and consumer satisfaction (Readers Digest, ConsumerLabs to name two)
3. Amway provides a 100% satisfaction guarantee on their products. Send back the empty packet, get all your money back
4. Amway is currently celebrating 50 years in business
5. Amway's Nutrilite brand is the #1 best selling nutritional brand in the world, and used and endorsed by numerous top athletes and clubs (Euromonitor)
6. Amway's Artistry brand has been independently judged as a "prestige brand" (Euromonitor)
7. Amway's Artistry brand is one of the top 5 best selling "prestige brands" in the world. (Euromonitor)
8. Amway sells hundreds of millions of dollars of products to people with no connection at all to the company (TEAM vs Quixtar lawsuit)
9. The majority of "members" of Amway who buy the products do not participate in the "income opportunity" (TEAM vs Quixtar lawsuit)
10. The majority of "members" of Amway do not participate in the seminars and other education programs you seem to think exert overt influence. (WWDB, N21 published statistics)

So, we have products that win awards, regularly top consumer opinion surveys, are independently judged as "prestige class", are some of the best sellers in their categories, offer full money back guarantee if unsatisfied ... and do billions of dollars in sales every year.

And you claim people only buy them because of the "income opportunity" so that makes Amway a scam.

Your opinion does not seem to be consistent with the facts.

1. Amway isn't really a retailer. For example P&G sells more stuff at retail then Amway but they use many different stores to do it. Under an apples to apples comparison Amway would be looked at as the manufacturer (still not small btw) and the retailers are the distributors. The definition of retailer doesn't make sense if the IBO's are their own businesses.


2. Big deal. They have a huge product line and have been around for a long time. Does anyone even care about this? I agree they make competent soap, vitamins etc. Personally I'm not a fan of their products but soap is soap.

3. How commendable of them.

4. The catholic church has been around for almost 2k years. I guess I better join up.

5. Fantastic. This seems to be an area (along with cosmetics) where people are willing to pay high prices. Even if the vitamins are the best in the world it doesn't mean the business model makes sense.

6/7. LOL. I'll believe that when I start seeing some real advertising for it like they do for all other makeup. Seriously, people aren't seeking out Artistry makeup unless they are in the biz.

8/9. Which is fine. I agree people can sign up and buy at Amway wholesale. So what? I'm more interested in the income of active people anyway.

10. You claimed 30% of N21 right? My experience has been that even if people aren't buying much product that they want to pretend they are building the business and are still interested so they will continue to buy tapes, go to the occasional function etc. without getting anywhere volume wise. It's simply easier to sell the dream downline than it is to get them to actually build a profitable business.

Of course this brings up one of the big lies which is that you don't make money for recruiting. You might not but as soon as they buy their first CD or go to their first function your upline is making a nice incremental profit. Much more than their cut of any product sales to this new distributor. Again this is how the real money is made for the kingpins. Amyway itself takes a nice cut of the product and we have a nice symbiosis going here. It's actually realy smart scam.

 

[Furcifer]

You're dodging. You implied that earning a "passive income" means something is a pyramid.
Are you retracting that?

In the case of Amway, yes, this passive income is the result of the pyramid scheme in action.

It's nothing to do with your "decision", it has to do with your statements on this thread.
3bodyproblem opinion:
Amway products are crap and people only buy them 'cause they think they'll make them rich

No, I've made numerous mention of the products being "decent" in general. I've also seen people make a strong case for the Amway version of some products being grotesquely over priced and over rated. I don't think the average Amway distributor believes they will "get rich quick" selling Amway. After reading this thread I'm certain they "will get rich slowly as long as there lazy butt keeps enrolling people in the program using any means necessary"

Facts -
1. Amway is one of the largest retailers in the world (Deloitte)

Fact: Amway is a wholesaler. The IBO's operate like "stores". This is the only way Amway can continue to operate legally.

2. Numerous Amway products have won numerous independent awards for quality and consumer satisfaction (Readers Digest, ConsumerLabs to name two)

I never made any statement to the contrary. Nor do I can one way or the other what or how many awards they may have won.

3. Amway provides a 100% satisfaction guarantee on their products. Send back the empty packet, get all your money back

I never said they didn't. Nor do I care. I would like to know if "N21" offers the same "100% satisfaction" quartantee. If I'm not happy with ther "tools" and "seminars" will they refund me money?

4. Amway is currently celebrating 50 years in business

I never said they weren't. Nor do I care.

5. Amway's Nutrilite brand is the #1 best selling nutritional brand in the world, and used and endorsed by numerous top athletes and clubs (Euromonitor)

I don't disagree. Nor do I care. This has nothing to do with why I think people should avoid Amway like the plague.

6. Amway's Artistry brand has been independently judged as a "prestige brand" (Euromonitor)

Don't care, not a factor.

7. Amway's Artistry brand is one of the top 5 best selling "prestige brands" in the world. (Euromonitor)

Don't care, not a factor.

8. Amway sells hundreds of millions of dollars of products to people with no connection at all to the company (TEAM vs Quixtar lawsuit)

Don't care, not a factor. Buy all the Amway you like. Just don't ask me to sell it or think I will allow anyone I know to sell it either.

9. The majority of "members" of Amway who buy the products do not participate in the "income opportunity" (TEAM vs Quixtar lawsuit)

No, that would make it illegal. Although I will admit this is something I've learned from this thread, it has nothing to do with my change of mind.

10. The majority of "members" of Amway do not participate in the seminars and other education programs you seem to think exert overt influence. (WWDB, N21 published statistics)

No, we've established that a majority of members get suckered into Amway on the premise they will get a good deal on a great product.

If the majority aren't attending, this makes the number attending stick out even further in my mind.

I don't think they seem to exert overt influence, I've heard (or read) people attest to this.

So, we have products that win awards, regularly top consumer opinion surveys, are independently judged as "prestige class", are some of the best sellers in their categories, offer full money back guarantee if unsatisfied ... and do billions of dollars in sales every year.
And you claim people only buy them because of the "income opportunity" so that makes Amway a scam.
Your opinion does not seem to be consistent with the facts.

My opinion isn't based in these so called facts. My opinion is based in your robotic response, testimony I've read here and other places on the net, my own limited experience with Amway and other MLM's, and the "facts" about these "networks" that are part in parcel with the Amway "culture".

I'm not telling people to not buy Amway products. In fact, I'm telling them to pay full price! Just don't get suckered into trying to get a discount, or making money off it.

 

[icerat]

You are correct. It isn't really sensible to compare a product which contains standardized amounts of vitamins and minerals which costs 3 cents per pill, with a product that contains non-standardized amounts of vitamins and minerals which costs 12.5 cents per pill or with the Double X which is 231 cents per day. But you already said the added value was in "the story", rather than health outcomes. So one merely needs to decide how much one wishes to pay to be told a story.

Linda

You misunderstood "added value" - I was speaking there from the business owner perspective, not the consumer perspective. The added value for a consumer absolutely comes in terms of health, but seriously I don't want to get into that debate on this thread. Just learned today about another new study on Double X, this time by Australia's CSIRO. I'm not sure what aspect they're looking at, but I did find this powerpoint by a CSIRO researcher on neutrogenomics that included a thank you to Amway in the acknowledgements, so it may be down that path. I'll be sure to let you know In the meantime, Google Scholar has 62 references to "Nutrition" and "Access Business Group", the division which has handled research for Amway the past decade. I'm sure you'll find something interesting there.

I must say, you're very good at assumptions. On what basis do you (falsely) state that the Nutrilite product have non-standardized amounts of vitamins and minerals? Nutrilite is one of the few brands that has had *every* product tested by consumerlabs come out as having accurate labels.

Yet here a you, for no apparent reason, stating as fact it's non-standardized. Do you think it's a good idea to make up false statements about others and post them on the internet? just sayin ....