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Hardfire: Physics of 9/11

I stumbled across this:

http://www.kfunigraz.ac.at/imawww/keeling/wtc1.html

Is Austrian physics as bad as Austrian economics? LOL


No, but American conspiracy-theorist physics is worse.

The homepage link on the keeling site said:
Name: Stephen L. Keeling
Citizenship: USA


It didn't take long to find the fail in this model (source code is at the wtc.nlogo link near the top of the linked page).

Here's the setup to fail (color added for easier reading):

set floor-rupturing-momentum (floors-needed-to-break-next-floor * sqrt ((2 * acceleration) * floor-height)) ; mass of falling floors (measured in numbers of floors)
set floor-rupturing-momentum (floor-rupturing-momentum * (1 - (supplemental-floor-weakening / 100))) ; X velocity of floors falling one floor-height


The paramenter floor-rupturing-momentum is being set to a "number of floors" (representing a mass value, as in number of floors worth of mass), times sqrt(2gh), a velocity value representing the freefall velocity after falling one floor height from a stationary start. So, the parameter represents the momentum that the mass of n floors (where n is set by floors-needed-to-break-floor) falling one floor.

It is then modified by a supplemental-floor-weakening parameter, which is set to zero by default.

The default values on the sliders gives floor-rupturing-momentum a value of 5 * sqrt (2gh), or the momentum of 5 floors having falling 1 floor's height from a standing start.

This is apparently based on NIST's estimate of the maximum dynamic load that a wtc floor could support. (Overlooking that it doesn't take the velocity gained from several meters of free fall to make a load dynamic.)

Now, here's the fail itself:

set mcoll (remaining-mass + mfall) ; the mass after the collision of the two. The old momentum mfall*vfall<0 is added to resisiting momentum
set vcoll ((floor-rupturing-momentum + (mfall * vfall)) / mcoll) ; floor-rupturing-momentum to give the new momentum mcoll*vcoll<0.


Some context is needed here. These computations are inside the loop that calculates the total collapse time by counting up the fall time of the upper mass for each collision with another floor. For each floor, the upper mass is assumed to accelerate at g for a distance floor-height; it is then slowed down (while its mass is increased) by the collision of each floor.

mfall is the falling mass just before each collision
vfall is the velocity of the falling mass just before each collision
mcoll is the falling mass after the collision
vcoll is the velocity after the collision

So, mfall * vfall is the momentum before the collision.

The value of vfall is negative (representing a downward fall) so the momentum value mfall*vfall is also negative.

Momentum is conserved in any collision, and the momentum of the newly added mass is zero before the collision. So, mcoll*vcoll = mfall*vfall.

That is, vcoll = ((mfall * vfall) / mcoll)

But the model says: set vcoll ((floor-rupturing-momentum + (mfall * vfall)) / mcoll)

Remember, vfall and vcoll are negative values, so adding the positive value floor-rupturing-momenum represents a decrease in momentum.

Keeling is subtracting an arbitrary amount of momentum, in a model of a collision for which the laws of physics say momentum must be conserved.

It would be reasonable to adjust the momentum based on some of the falling mass being shed in the collision (in which case the momentum would still exist, but not longer be contributing to the momentum of the falling mass), but Keeling isn't doing that.

What he's doing is subtracting an arbitrary amount of momentum, in a model of a collision for which the laws of physics say momentum must be conserved.

But, you might be thinking, some momentum has to be lost, to do the work that breaks the floors. But that's not the case. What's lost to do the work that breaks the floors is kinetic energy. When we apply

vcoll = ((mfall * vfall) / mcoll)

based on conservation of momentum, kinetic energy is lost. That's what does the work to break the floors.

If he wanted to, Keeling could also include a parameter representing some additional loss of kinetic energy (which would reduce the velocity) before or after each collision, to represent additional energy required to break structural elements.

But he isn't doing that. He's OMGWTF subtracting an arbitrary amount of momentum, in a model of a collision for which the laws of physics say momentum must be conserved.

Fail.

And, guess what? His parametric graph of his own model shows that the larger he sets the value of floor-rupturing-momenum, this physically impossible momentum loss parameter, the less his model behaves like the real towers did in the real world! Should this surprise anyone?

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
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I stumbled across this:

http://www.kfunigraz.ac.at/imawww/keeling/wtc1.html

Is Austrian physics as bad as Austrian economics? LOL

psik
Another moron for 911TruthLies
since the recorded fall times for the world trade center buildings correspond to a free fall, http://www.kfunigraz.ac.at/imawww/keeling/wtc1.html

Good find; you are looking for mass distribution and you bring home some more woo on 911.

Another person who can't model the WTC! At least he is not whining about not finding the mass.
 
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Yeah NIST physics with unknown masses is SO much better.


Yes, it is, and I'm glad to see you acknowledge this important point.

A model with correct dynamics but with uncertainty in the input data is still very powerful. The effect of the uncertainties can be tested and evaluated, in various ways ranging from simple best-case and worst-case simulations to full-blown parametric analysis and statistical determinations of confidence intervals.

A model with incorrect dynamics (such as subtracting an arbitrary amount of momentum, in a model of a collision for which the laws of physics say momentum must be conserved) is useless. It cannot tell you anything of value no matter what you put into it. Keeling's is a good example. Even in the parametric regions where its output agrees with observation, this cannot be assumed to demonstrate anything beyond meaningless coincidence. It cannot confirm or refute any theory, no matter what data is given to it.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
If anyone's interested, it might do for a discussion on "propagation of errors" in scientific experiments. What this means is estimating how much an uncertainty in the inputs affects the output. There are mathematical formulae for this, it's not hand-waving in any way, shape, or form. It's a useful technique that most non-scientists never encounter.

Or, there's always the quick way, which is to consider worst cases or a variety of inputs, and show empiricallly that uncertainties don't affect the outcome. Many people have already done this for World Trade Center collapse models, which is how we know additional precision in the inputs is simply not needed. There's no doubt about this whatsoever.

But haarping about "missing information" does give the obsessed something to cling to, as the whole point of science investigation soars over their pointy heads. :D
 
If anyone's interested, it might do for a discussion on "propagation of errors" in scientific experiments. What this means is estimating how much an uncertainty in the inputs affects the output. There are mathematical formulae for this, it's not hand-waving in any way, shape, or form. It's a useful technique that most non-scientists never encounter.

Or, there's always the quick way, which is to consider worst cases or a variety of inputs, and show empiricallly that uncertainties don't affect the outcome. Many people have already done this for World Trade Center collapse models, which is how we know additional precision in the inputs is simply not needed. There's no doubt about this whatsoever.

But haarping about "missing information" does give the obsessed something to cling to, as the whole point of science investigation soars over their pointy heads. :D


I think the "missing" info is more important than you poorly attempt to glean over it.

It would be mighty hard to predict how fast a drag car would go without an engine in it.
 
It would be mighty hard to predict how fast a drag car would go without an engine in it.


Not at all. Tell me how high above the ground the drag car is when you drop it, and I'll tell you how fast it will go. I'll guarantee +/- 2% accuracy in my prediction, even if you keep it a secret whether or not it has an engine in it.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Not at all. Tell me how high above the ground the drag car is when you drop it, and I'll tell you how fast it will go. I'll guarantee +/- 2% accuracy in my prediction, even if you keep it a secret whether or not it has an engine in it.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Even better--I'll do it and you don't even have to tell me whether it is made of steel, aluminum, or even lumber!
 
Even better--I'll do it and you don't even have to tell me whether it is made of steel, aluminum, or even lumber!


Great--two of the smartest, most knowledgeable people here, Mackey and RWGuinn, engaging two absolute...

Well, we get the idea.
 
Are you going to comment on the rest of his post?
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What is there to comment on?

People keep making these mathematically simple models where THE CORE has been disappeared and the falling top portion can crush the bottom without getting crushed itself. The stuff is too dumb to be worthy of comment. And then they don't demand accurate information on the distribution of mass.

After almost EIGHT YEARS, it's a very unfunny joke.

psik
 
.
What is there to comment on?

People keep making these mathematically simple models where THE CORE has been disappeared and the falling top portion can crush the bottom without getting crushed itself. The stuff is too dumb to be worthy of comment. And then they don't demand accurate information on the distribution of mass.

After almost EIGHT YEARS, it's a very unfunny joke.

psik
Yet you can't explain why they're wrong. Funny, huh?
 
But haarping about "missing information" does give the obsessed something to cling to, as the whole point of science investigation soars over their pointy heads. :D
.
ROFL

Tolerating missing information about buildings designed before the Moon landing is so much more intelligent. But to then talk about scaled models of said buildings.

Scientifically Brilliant! :D :D

Like crashing a probe on Mars because of a conversion error.

psik
 
I find it intriguing that the people loudest about the "missing Mass" distribution and "free fall" haven't got a clue.
A Physical scale model can duplicate the FAILURE MODE. It cannot duplicate the post-failure events. Only a computer model can do that, and it don't need the kind of accuracy they think they need, simply because the sim will be a (very) rough approximation.
We don't have computers that can crunch that kind of numbers in a reasonable time frame.
 
.
What is there to comment on?

People keep making these mathematically simple models where THE CORE has been disappeared and the falling top portion can crush the bottom without getting crushed itself. The stuff is too dumb to be worthy of comment. And then they don't demand accurate information on the distribution of mass.

After almost EIGHT YEARS, it's a very unfunny joke.

psik

Maybe somebody should explain it all with toothpicks and washers.:rolleyes:
 
.
What is there to comment on?

People keep making these mathematically simple models where THE CORE has been disappeared and the falling top portion can crush the bottom without getting crushed itself. The stuff is too dumb to be worthy of comment. And then they don't demand accurate information on the distribution of mass.

After almost EIGHT YEARS, it's a very unfunny joke.

psik


Ah, so you brought Keeling's model to our attention because of how dumb you think it is? And you didn't notice that Keeling is an all-American Truther? Check out the "related models" references near the bottom of the page you linked. Kenneth Kuttler (a JONES paper), Judy Wood, and Steven Jones. Not a word about Bazant, Greening, or even Urich.

And by the way, Keeling doesn't appear to agree with you about the importance of knowing the exact mass. Try running his model with a different mass per floor. Oops, you can't! There's no setting in the model for mass per floor, because in the model he uses, mass cancels out. The results are identical regardless of the mass per floor.

Perhaps you should write to him and explain his errors. You can tell him about the importance of the TONS OF CONCRETE AND TONS OF STEEL that he left out of his model completely, and you can pass on my suggestion that he try again using real physics instead of truther physics. (He did what, you say? Subtracted an arbitrary amount of momentum, in a model of collisions for which the laws of physics say momentum must be conserved? Holy smokes!)

Looks like truther physics and real physics agree that Keeling's model is a fail. That is a stratospheric level of fail that hasn't been achieved since The PentaCon!

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
.
What is there to comment on?

People keep making these mathematically simple models where THE CORE has been disappeared and the falling top portion can crush the bottom without getting crushed itself. The stuff is too dumb to be worthy of comment. And then they don't demand accurate information on the distribution of mass.

After almost EIGHT YEARS, it's a very unfunny joke.

psik



You giggle hysterically at everything real engineers try to tell you. In eight years, will you be able to explain to your superiors in knowledge, intelligence, and understanding why this "distribution of mass" is significant?
 

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