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Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not

Oh dear, once more that totally stupid NASA press release just making things sound interesting so they can get their money for the project's continuation.

Just like the claim that they "solved the substorm problem" and were clearly slapped in the face at the AGU fall meeting. Do not pay attention to press releases, they hardly ever contain usable information.

here is the real paper, I am not sure if I have the pdf at work.
 
Why did it need reconfirming?

that is called the scientific method, falsification

I'd just like to highlight this sentance again

"found evidence of magnetic ropes connecting Earth's upper atmosphere directly to the sun,"

how could this be if space is over all quasi-neutral?

Highlight what you want.
Naturally, when the flux ropes are in the solar wind, one can always find a connection to the Sun in some way. However, connecting the atmosphere with the Sun, well hardly. Maybe the magnetosphere or the ionospere gets somehow connected to the flux rope (although the ionosphere would already be difficult). Now, the particles flow into the magnetosphere (nothing against that) and a flux rope, because of the twisted magnetic field has currents. But to claim that the atmosphere is directly connected to the Sun is just frakking rubbish. Like I said in the previous message, forget the stupid press release and read the real paper.

and the fact that space (which is a weird term to use) or rather the solar wind and other plasmas are quasi-neutral has absolutely nothing to do with having a flux rope making an FTE at the magnetoapause. If you think this is a problem, why not spell it out in full glory?

Exactly! the maths must be correct and the Universe MUST conform to these equations.

Well if that math is really wrong, we would be in a lot of trouble, then you would not be able to drive your car, use your pc and the internet, fly an airplane, use GPS, etc etc etc

The universe does not conform to the equations, that is just stupid talk, but who would expect anything else from Sol88?
 
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Why did it need reconfirming?
that is called the scientific method, falsification

What? why not pick up the ball and run with it? The dude was right! to parse from wiki

It had taken 65 years to confirm Birkeland's original predictions./QUOTE]

That's science? :rolleyes:

Tell me Tusenfem is there or do you think, a coupling between the magnetosphere and the ionosphere?

Because there is a direct connection between the ionosphere and the atmosphere!

Are you up to speed on megalightning, Tusenfem?

350px-Upperatmoslight1.jpg


And perhaps you could tell me why they would "spice up" the story to keep the funding coming?

Also how do NASA calculate
NASA also likened the interaction to a "30 kiloVolt battery in space," noting the "flux rope pumps 650,000 Amp current into the Arctic!

How'd they get 30Kv and 650,000 amps? that's a few watts of energy, ain't it?
 
Well if that math is really wrong, we would be in a lot of trouble, then you would not be able to drive your car, use your pc and the internet, fly an airplane, use GPS, etc etc etc

What a howler!!!


Maths can even tell you the properties of neutronium, can it?

The only people besides scientist that use maths "creatively" are bankers... 'nough said.
 
An average bolt of positive lightning carries a current of up to 300 kA (kiloamperes) (about ten times as much current as a bolt of negative lightning), transfers a charge of up to 300 coulombs, has a potential difference up to 1 gigavolt (one billion volts), and lasts for hundreds of milliseconds, with a discharge energy of up to 300 GJ (gigajoules) (a billion joules).[citation needed]

Is that a lot?

What about that nebular lightning? how many joules would that discharge release? :jaw-dropp

We calculate that electric fields large enough to trigger breakdown easily could have existed over regions large enough (not, vert, similar100 km) to generate very large discharges of electrical energy (not, vert, similar1016 erg), assuming a lightning bolt width less, approximate10 electron mean-free paths. The discharges would have been sufficiently energetic to have formed the chondrules

Which we would see as a flash of xrays and gamma rays, have we ever observed such "flashes"?

Gamma-ray bursts

Gamma-ray bursts (GRBs) are flashes of gamma rays associated with extremely energetic explosions in distant galaxies. They are the most luminous electromagnetic events in the universe since the Big Bang. A typical event lasts for duration of a few seconds, but can range from milliseconds to nearly an hour. The initial burst is usually followed by a longer-lived "afterglow" emitting at longer wavelengths (X-ray, ultraviolet, optical, infrared, and radio).

And

Terrestrial gamma-ray flash


Terrestrial gamma-ray flashes (TGFs) are bursts of gamma rays in the earth's atmosphere. TGFs have been recorded to last 0.2 to 3.5 milliseconds, and have energies of up to 20 MeV. They are probably caused by electric fields produced above thunderstorms.

And the mainstream are still baffled by GRB's? :rolleyes:
 
Indeed Laplace put the idea into his 1796 book Exposition du système du Monde, but the idea was originated by geologist John Michell in 1783 (Michell, 1784). Isaac Newton believed that light was made of particles, and there is no reason to prevent bodies massive enough for the escape velocity to exceed the speed of light in Newtonian physics, so such a body would naturally appear dark. But this Newtonian "black hole" is very different from a general relativistic black hole. It is, after all, just a big massive solid object, no different in principle from any other solid object. But the event horizon makes the general relativistic black hole an exotic object in a class by itself in comparison. This is the solution to Einstein's equations that Karl Schwarzschild figured out (Schwarzschild, 1916) within a few months of the appearance of Einstein's original paper (Einstein, 1915).

Thanks Tim, although I was aware of Newton’s ‘corpuscular’ light I was not aware John Michell had originated the idea of a ‘dark star’. I’ll have to do some research on his writings.
 
We know all of this - you are just being stupid as usual Sol88.

We know that what Albert Einstein gave science was a better understanding of the universe.
Kristan Birkeland gave science a better understanding of plasma, aurora and some insights into the solar wind.
Something to be careful about here.

Card-carrying members of the EU cult have been engaged, for some time now, in an intensive campaign to re-write history wrt Birkeland and plasma physics.

The most outrageous lies concern crediting Birkeland with the discovery of a wide range of plasma behaviours, to which he attached names that are identical to contemporary terms. As this is quite easily shown to be ridiculous, it seems fairly rare that an EU cultist makes these claims (though those, like Sol88, who seem to be proud of their gross ignorance, may be exceptions): the modern terms are simply not found in any of Birkeland's writings.

The less outrageous distortions and misrepresentations are just as insidious, because they take away from Birkeland his actual, significant achievements and replace them with mythical and wholly unrealistic prescience.

Take 'plasma' as an example.

While various aspects of plasmas (contemporary meaning) were discovered in the late 1800s, Irving Langmuir is regarded as the founder of plasma physics, in the 1920s. Why? Partly because he was the first to use the term 'plasma', but mostly because he was the first to explicitly describe the key behaviours, and thus define what we, today, mean by the term.

Birkeland had passed the second Chandrasekhar limit by then.

However, Birkeland, like many physicists of his day, did have some understanding of some physical mechanisms and processes that we today recognise as playing a role in some aspects of plasma physics; further, he had some insights into others that later proved to be accurate (and, of course, some insights that later proved to be wildly inaccurate). In a broader picture, this is not at all exceptional; for example, think of the multiple aspects of what we today call relativity that were known - sometimes well-known - before Einstein published his paper on Special Relativity (in some ways EU cultists are like the crackpots who claim that relativity was *really* discovered Lorentz, or Poincaré, or ...).

Many EU cultists clearly are clueless when it comes to understanding physics, and some are quite open about this (e.g. Tresman); however, that hasn't stopped them making up plausible sounding explanations and infecting Wikipedia entries with them (and, as tusenfem has pointed out, a certain, totally stupid, NASA PR just made life easier for them) - look at how "Mgmirkin" was able to combine his superficial understanding of the physics with his EU love affair and the NASA PR to come up this total nonsense (in the Wiki entry on Birkeland current; bold added):

In 2007, NASA's THEMIS (Time History of Events and Macroscale Interactions during Substorms) project "found evidence of magnetic ropes connecting Earth's upper atmosphere directly to the sun," [9][10] noting "that solar wind particles flow in along these ropes, providing energy for geomagnetic storms and auroras," thus reconfirming Birkeland's model of solar-terrestrial electrical interaction.
.

There's a certain irony here; Peratt - who clearly does know his onions when it comes to plasma physics - in his 1985 Sky&Telescope article was careful to credit Birkeland with the work he actually did, but also to point out the only modest correspondence with what we understand today (well, in 1985):

Peratt said:
[Birkeland] then shot clouds of electrons toward this simulated Earth to produce a light phenomenon that looked like the aurora. (We now know that the solar wind also consists of positive ions, as well as negative electrons).

Birkeland could see that bunches of electrons curved down towards and around the Earth's poles. While the actual process is somewhat more complicated than he envisioned [...], his results were surprisingly good.
.

In closing, another irony: but for M Mozina's thread, I'd've not read Birkeland's giant, 994-page tome (Michael provided a link to it, in an attempt to make his case; of course, all it did was demonstrate just how little he actually understood, of physics or of Birkeland's work!), and from reading that material, I came to realise just how grossly people like Mgmirkin have distorted both history and the physics of the early 1900s.
 
Nice well written rant, DRD! but unfortunately your um.... :deadhorse

Take this statement of your for example

Take 'plasma' as an example.

While various aspects of plasmas (contemporary meaning) were discovered in the late 1800s, Irving Langmuir is regarded as the founder of plasma physics, in the 1920s. Why? Partly because he was the first to use the term 'plasma', but mostly because he was the first to explicitly describe the key behaviours, and thus define what we, today, mean by the term.

And K.Birkeland

In 1913, Birkeland may have been the first to predict that plasma was ubiquitous in space. He wrote: "It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. We have assumed that each stellar system in evolutions throws off electric corpuscles into space. It does not seem unreasonable therefore to think that the greater part of the material masses in the universe is found, not in the solar systems or nebulae, but in "empty" space.

You are right he described the IGM, ISM and IPM pretty bloody well for not knowing it was called a PLASMA, though electric corpuscles is more or less the same if you are looking at splitting hairs DRD! After all is that not why Irving Langmuir coined the term PLASMA?

However, Birkeland, like many physicists of his day, did have some understanding of some physical mechanisms and processes that we today recognise as playing a role in some aspects of plasma physics; further, he had some insights into others that later proved to be accurate (and, of course, some insights that later proved to be wildly inaccurate).

Insights?

They are called PREDICTIONS, DRD! And you are correct in saying later (65yrs later) his prediction proved correct! But know as then there are those that wish to believe otherwise! :mad: Dude topped himself from the ridicule he received from his peers.


And playing a role in some aspects of plasma physics????

The discovery of filed aligned currents not a major enough role in plasma physics for ya? You should read up on them some time because they are a Key component of plasma physics along with the other poorly misunderstood, by the mainstream, plasma phenomenon DOUBLE LAYERS! Just ask Tusenfem :eek:

and, of course, some insights that later proved to be wildly inaccurate
Citations/Links?

Many EU cultists clearly are clueless when it comes to understanding physics, and some are quite open about this (e.g. Tresman); however, that hasn't stopped them making up plausible sounding explanations and infecting Wikipedia entries with them (and, as tusenfem has pointed out, a certain, totally stupid, NASA PR just made life easier for them) - look at how "Mgmirkin" was able to combine his superficial understanding of the physics with his EU love affair and the NASA PR to come up this total nonsense (in the Wiki entry on Birkeland current; bold added):

WhoaaaW!!! Infecting wiki? Dude your tripp'n :eusa_boohoo:

As I can not access the paper can some one PM me with a copy?

Silly NASA :blush::blush::eusa_shifty: but that's what they did wasn't it, reconfirmed it (his prediction)


was careful to credit Birkeland with the work he actually did, but also to point out the only modest correspondence with what we understand today (well, in 1985):

modest correspondence??? He was **** on by his peers, so like much EU/PC potential papers, they are not written by many inside the cult that is academia! and 1985 was awhile ago know, DRD! That dastardly NASA PR was in 2007, when we have had satellites measuring the phenomena that Birkeland PREDICTED for quite some time, as well as some stuff we are now only just finding out!! i.e breaches in the Earths magnetosphere, sub storms et cetera

In closing, another irony: but for M Mozina's thread, I'd've not read Birkeland's giant, 994-page tome (Michael provided a link to it, in an attempt to make his case; of course, all it did was demonstrate just how little he actually understood, of physics or of Birkeland's work!), and from reading that material, I came to realise just how grossly people like Mgmirkin have distorted both history and the physics of the early 1900s.
Today 12:42 AM

Seems you are well versed on the interconnectedness of this theory! Well done again :)
 
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You are right he described the IGM, ISM and IPM pretty bloody well for not knowing it was called a PLASMA, though electric corpuscles is more or less the same if you are looking at splitting hairs DRD! After all is that not why Irving Langmuir coined the term PLASMA?
Totally wrong, Sol 88. Your ignorance is astounding.
Plasma is a specific state of matter - "electric corpuscles" is definitely not a plasma and not "more or less the same".

Birkeland said that the solar wind was electrons and ions. The author of the Wikipedia article interpreted this as plasma but this is wrong. If Birkeland had used a early 1900's term for plasma ("radiant matter" or "cathode tube matter") then he would be stating that the solar wind is a plasma.

The quote is about the composition of the material in space (which he got right) - not whether it was a different state of matter like the plasma that is the IGM, ISM and IPM.

They are called PREDICTIONS, DRD! And you are correct in saying later (65yrs later) his prediction proved correct! But know as then there are those that wish to believe otherwise! :mad: Dude topped himself from the ridicule he received from his peers.
Some of Birkeland's results were insights (no numbers).
Some of Birkeland's results were predictions (with numbers).
Some of his insights & predictions were correct, e.g. Birkeland's field-aligned currents.
Some of his insights & predictions were wrong, e.g. Saturn's rings.

And playing a role in some aspects of plasma physics????

The discovery of filed aligned currents not a major enough role in plasma physics for ya? You should read up on them some time because they are a Key component of plasma physics along with the other poorly misunderstood, by the mainstream, plasma phenomenon DOUBLE LAYERS!
Birkeland currents play a role in the Earth's magnetosphere (and presumably ofther magnetospheres). They are a minor part of plasma physics restricted to a tiny bit of the universe (magnetic bodies in stellar winds).
Double layers are actually well understood in plasma physics.

Silly NASA :blush::blush::eusa_shifty: but that's what they did wasn't it, reconfirmed it (his prediction)
THERMIS did not "reconfirm" Birkeland's model of solar-terrestrial electrical interaction. That model did not include magnetic ropes connecting Earth's upper atmosphere directly to the sun. You cannot "reconfirm" something that does not exist in a model.

As another person who has actually read Birkeland's books, I can attest to the gross distortions that certain people have presented of the material in them.
 
A cloud of electrons :jaw-dropp .

Umm...no it's a plasma!

Electron

The electron is a subatomic particle that carries a negative electric charge. It has no known substructure and is believed to be a point particle.

RC wrote
Plasma is a specific state of matter - "electric corpuscles" is definitely not a plasma and not "more or less the same".



Discovery of the electron

At this time, atoms were the smallest particles known, and were believed to be indivisible. What carried electric currents was a mystery. During the last quarter of the 19th century many experiments were done to determine what cathode rays were. There were two theories. Crookes and Artur Shuster believed they were particles of "radiant matter", that is, electrically charged atoms. German scientists Eilhard Wiedemann, Heinrich Hertz and Goldstein believed they were "aether waves", some new form of electromagnetic radiation.

The debate was resolved in 1897 when J.J. Thomson measured the mass of cathode rays, showing they were made of particles, but were around 1800 times lighter than the lightest atom, hydrogen. Therefore they were not atoms, but a new particle which he originally called "corpuscle" but was later named electron. He also showed they were identical with particles given off by photoelectric and radioactive materials. It was quickly recognised that they are the particles that carry electric currents in metal wires, and carry the negative electric charge of the atom.

Thomson was given the 1906 Nobel prize for physics for this work. Philipp Lenard also contributed a great deal to cathode ray theory, winning the Nobel prize for physics in 1905 for his research on cathode rays and their properties.

Definition of a plasma

Although a plasma is loosely described as an electrically neutral medium of positive and negative particles, a definition can have three criteria:[8][9][10]

1. The plasma approximation: Charged particles must be close enough together that each particle influences many nearby charged particles, rather than just interacting with the closest particle (these collective effects are a distinguishing feature of a plasma). The plasma approximation is valid when the number of charge carriers within the sphere of influence (called the Debye sphere whose radius is the Debye screening length) of a particular particle are higher than unity to provide collective behaviour of the charged particles

And a large cloud of plasma can be found here

The same year Victor Hess's discovery of cosmic rays, highly energetic charged particles that rain onto the Earth from space, led others to speculate whether they also pervaded interstellar space. The following year the Norwegian explorer and physicist Kristian Birkeland wrote: "It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. We have assumed that each stellar system in evolutions throws off electric corpuscles into space. It does not seem unreasonable therefore to think that the greater part of the material masses in the universe is found, not in the solar [sic] systems or nebulae, but in 'empty' space" (Birkeland 1913).

Thorndike (1930) noted that "it could scarcely have been believed that the enormous gaps between the stars are completely void. Terrestrial aurorae are not improbably excited by charged particles from the Sun emitted by the Sun. If the millions of other stars are also ejecting ions, as is undoubtedly true, no absolute vacuum can exist within the galaxy."
lINK

And IGM

Surrounding and stretching between galaxies, there is a rarefied plasma[15][16] that is thought to possess a cosmic filamentary structure[17] and that is slightly denser than the average density in the universe. This material is called the intergalactic medium (IGM) and is mostly ionized hydrogen, i.e. a plasma consisting of equal numbers of electrons and protons. The IGM is thought to exist at a density of 10 to 100 times the average density of the universe (10 to 100 hydrogen atoms per cubic meter). It reaches densities as high as 1000 times the average density of the universe in rich clusters of galaxies.

BTW cosmic filamentary structure constitutes cosmology! ie
Galaxy filament
distribution in a slice cut through a simulation of a flat universe with cosmological constant. The distribution reveals fine, filamentary structures. The slice has a side length of 520 million light years, and a thickness of 100 million light years. It contains the so-called "supergalactic plane". The major nearby clusters, like Coma, Virgo, Perseus cluster, are labelled.[1]


In physical cosmology, filaments are the largest known structures in the universe, thread-like structures with a typical length of 50 to 80 h-1 megaparsecs that form the boundaries between large voids in the universe.[2] Filaments consist of gravitationally-bound galaxies; parts where a large number of galaxies are very close to each other are called superclusters.

In 2006, scientists announced the discovery of three filaments aligned to form the largest structure known to humankind, composed of densely-packed galaxies and enormous blobs of gas known as Lyman alpha blobs.[3]

Lyman-alpha blob or plasma cloud
In astronomy, a Lyman-alpha blob (LAB) is a huge concentration of a gas emitting the Lyman-alpha emission line. The Lyman-alpha emission line is produced by recombination of electrons with ionized hydrogen atoms. LABs are some of the largest known individual objects in the Universe. Some of these gaseous structures are more than 400,000 light years across.
 
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A cloud of electrons is not a plasma as anyone with a basic knowledge of physics knows.
A plasma is an ionized gas - it has positive ions as well as electron.

Ok truce most of the time the cloud of electron would contain molecules and ions to be called a plasma, but such things do exist!

Sunstorm electron clouds surrounding Earth studied

These electron clouds, a part of the solar atmosphere that extends millions of miles from the sun, cause geomagnetic storms that can disrupt communications satellites, expose high-flying aircraft to excess radiation and even damage ground-based power-generating facilities.

:rolleyes:
 
oh nothing :eusa_whistle:

<looks at the Lyman-alpha blobS and cosmic filamentary structure links again>
 
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oh nothing :eusa_whistle:

<looks at the Lyman-alpha blobS and cosmic filamentary structure links again>
You mean the Lyman-alpha blobs of ionized hydrogen that are the result of neutral hydrogen being ionized and are not plasma?

You do realize that LABs are evidence against plasma cosmology (and for a Big Bang) because the Layman-alpha forest shows that the composition of the universe has changed. As we look back in time there is more neutral hydrogen in the universe. This means that galaxies cannot have been around forever since it is the light from galaxies that ionizes neutral hydrogen.

Cosmic filamentary structures are the well known structures of galaxies in filaments. They have been nicely reproduced by the Millennium Run using the Lambda-CDM model

So what?

Is this your obsession with pretty pictures again :eye-poppi ?
 
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What? why not pick up the ball and run with it? The dude was right! to parse from wiki

It had taken 65 years to confirm Birkeland's original predictions.

That's science?

Yep, that is science for you.
As our equipment is getting better and better (I know mine is) we can do better and better measurements.
However, this measurement did not confirm Birkeland's discovery of the field aligned currents creating the aurora. I hope you understand that.

Tell me Tusenfem is there or do you think, a coupling between the magnetosphere and the ionosphere?

I would certainly hope so, otherwise a lot of peeps are working for nothing in the space physics area of I-M coupling (Ionosphere-Magnetosphere)

Because there is a direct connection between the ionosphere and the atmosphere!

Are you up to speed on megalightning, Tusenfem?

wow, the only papers written on "mega lightning" in the wiki page are from "pure energy physics" (never heard of) and of "holoscience". Please post something REAL to show that supposed megalightning is caused by ionosphere. Do you know how high the ionosphere is above the surface of the Earth?

And perhaps you could tell me why they would "spice up" the story to keep the funding coming?

If you want more money to keep your project going (it is not an unlimited bucket from which you can do whatever you want) then you need to show that you are doing what you initially proposed in your mission proposal. As the time for refunding comes up, some people tend to get a bit excited and try to take short cuts and try to spice things up. Unfortunate, but true.

Also how do NASA calculate

How'd they get 30Kv and 650,000 amps? that's a few watts of energy, ain't it?

Oh, solly, I am sure you can get the real paper and look at it and do the math for yourself. I will not take away that pleasure from you.

Maths can even tell you the properties of neutronium, can it?

The only people besides scientist that use maths "creatively" are bankers... 'nough said.

Neutronium, is that not what Wolverine's skeleton is made of? Ah, nah, that is adamantium (just like Galadriel's ring). From Wiki:

wiki said:
Neutronium is a term originally used in science fiction and in popular literature to refer to an extremely dense phase of matter composed primarily of neutrons. The word was coined by scientist Andreas von Antropoff in 1926 (i.e. before the discovery of the neutron itself) for the conjectured 'element of atomic number zero' that he placed at the head of the periodic table. However, the meaning of the term has changed over time, and from the last half of the 20th century onward it has been used legitimately to refer to extremely dense phases of matter resembling the neutron-degenerate matter postulated to exist in the cores of neutron stars.

Well, also the wiki page is not really up to date, because in the core of a neutron star there is most likely some quark plasma, but I am also not completely up to date.

And if you think math is not important, I wonder what your hero's Birkeland and Alfvén would say about that. Also without that math, you would not be able to come up with all those papers and press releases about discoveries (and shocked, perplexed, surprised, baffled, flabbergasted mainstream scientists), because we would not be able to build, launch and milk the satellites that brig the data.

Dear Sol88, it seems you have a whole library of stuff there at your disposal, next to the internet, which very nicely supports you in derailing any discussion in sideways and dead ends. It is all nice and well, you trying to beat up the mainstream ideas (heck I do it myself too) but are you not in the least worried about the dearth of well developed PC/PU/EU/EC/ES theories? I get the feeling you just want to look at stuff, and move back to the middle ages, god forbid that looking at a picture does not suffice.
 
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Ok truce most of the time the cloud of electron would contain molecules and ions to be called a plasma, but such things do exist!

Sunstorm electron clouds surrounding Earth studied

If you would read the whole article, you would see that the camera is for CMEs (Coronal Mass Ejections), which are full of solar plasma, i.e. both ions and electrons, and neutral (if not currentless, but I don't think you (Sol88) understand yet that neutrality and current are not mutually exclusive).

The camera that was build measures the reflected sunlight, and the sunlight is reflected off the electrons in the CME, therefore, as a shorthand they say electron clouds. Bad usage of language, but who is surprised it is once more not a scientific paper, but a frakking press release.
 

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