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The 25 fulfilled prophecies of Isaiah chapter 53

And what is that evidence and what is the source of that evidence.
Because I'm feeling nice, I'll post a transcript of the interview:


O'Connor: Luke made a mistake. Ah, then howcome he was born in Bethlehem. So he has to invent the census to get him to Bethlehem.
Interviewer:So, how do you know that it was Luke that made the Mistake?
O'Connor:Because the census was nonsense. The census we’re told was for the Roman Empire. This wasn’t part of the Roman Empire, this was an independent Jewish kingdom. It's complete nonsense. But Luke had to try and find a motive why a heavily pregnant woman would travel the length of the country. He made a guess and he got it wrong.
 
Not according to the famous archaeologist Sir William Mitchell Ramsay. He found there was a Roman census every 14 years, beginning with Emperor Augustus. Source, the book "Examine the Evidence" by Ralph Muncas Pg. 274.
Here is YOUR claim. Back it up.

Isn't is amazing how DOC keeps derailing his own thread? He can't even keep to his own OP.
 
Here is YOUR claim. Back it up.

Isn't is amazing how DOC keeps derailing his own thread? He can't even keep to his own OP.

I'm not the one who brought up the census, Joobz was. Why don't you criticize him for doing so.

And punch in William Ramsay and census and Luke and you will get all kind or sources that what I"m saying is true.
 
"Quirinius made an account of Archelaus' property and finished conducting the census, which happened in the thirty-seventh year after Caesar's defeat of Antony at Actium."
Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 18.26

The victory at Actium is universally agreed to have happened in 31 B.C. The evidence for this is truly insurmountable, confirmed in countless histories, and inscriptions, papyri and other physical evidence. So the census occurred in 6 A.D., which is the 37th year (beginning with 31 B.C., since the ancients reckoned inclusively). This is independently confirmed by Cassius Dio and corroborated by Roman coins.[3.5] It also fits what we know about Quirinius from an inscription (the Lapis Venetus). It is also notable that Josephus attributes the rebellion of Judas the Galilean to this census,[3.6] a detail which Acts 5:37 confirms.[3.7] This then puts the death of Herod at 4 B.C. reckoning from the ten years of the reign of Archelaus, and fittingly, in his account of Herod's reign, Josephus places his death in that very year. But even if we could fudge the year of Herod's death,[3.8] we cannot escape the fact that some years must separate his death and the census, since we have to account for the reign of Archelaus in between, so a historical contradiction between Matthew and Luke persists.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/quirinius.html#Josephus
 
Isn't is amazing how DOC keeps derailing his own thread? He can't even keep to his own OP.
I think he thinks he's being clever. Unfortunately, this has been another demosntration in the special pleading he likes to make.

He uses appeal to authority by quoting a "famous" archeologist. We ask him for the actual primary source quote (evidence that Ramsay actually said there was a Roman census every 14 years). He has refused to provide this.

Yet, simultaneously, I quote a biblical scholar (who is christian and has no bias to disprove christianity) stating clearly that Luke made errors in the gospel, and he demands more evidence of this. I seriously don't know what more evidence I can provide than a video interview of the guy actually saying it out of his own mouth. There's no better first source evidence than that..


But that's not what DOC is asking for now. He wants me to also provide the evidence that O'Connor bases his statement on. It's interesting that he can't provide a simple primary quote but will then demand from me to provide him with historical documentation of the geography and kingdoms of 0AD.
 
I'm not the one who brought up the census, Joobz was. Why don't you criticize him for doing so.
But you claimed something else. So either back it up or withdraw it.
And punch in William Ramsay and census and Luke and you will get all kind or sources that what I"m saying is true.
No. I'm doing your homework for you.

Bring the ORIGINAL and ENTIRE quote by Ramsay and not one of your quote mining garbage from a apologetic site or withdraw your claim.
 
I'm not the one who brought up the census, Joobz was. Why don't you criticize him for doing so.

And punch in William Ramsay and census and Luke and you will get all kind or sources that what I"m saying is true.
Are you saying that The Dominican Priest, Reverend Dr. Jerome Murphy O'Connor, who is a leading expert on New testament Exegesis, is wrong? Do you care to demosntrate that the region of interest wasn't an independant Jewish Kingdom?
 
Are you saying that The Dominican Priest, Reverend Dr. Jerome Murphy O'Connor, who is a leading expert on New testament Exegesis, is wrong? Do you care to demosntrate that the region of interest wasn't an independant Jewish Kingdom?
Not only that but the date of the census according to Josephus doesn't even support Luke's claim of when it occurred.
 
Not only that but the date of the census according to Josephus doesn't even support Luke's claim of when it occurred.
Indeed. Dr. O'Conner wrote about that as well and agrees that that is another critical failing in the Census story.
http://www.bib-arch.org/online-exclusives/nativity-03.asp
Now let us turn to Luke. Mason recognizes (as do all scholars) that the census mentioned in Luke (2:1–2) took place in 6 A.D., which is far too late to be of any relevance to the birth of Jesus in the days of Herod the king (37–4 B.C.): In other words, Joseph and Mary could not have been traveling to Bethlehem for this census. Thus, the linchpin of Luke’s narrative slips out, and the story fragments into a number of individual, unrelated elements. But the fact that Luke is wrong on X (the census) does not necessarily mean that he is wrong on Y (the location of Jesus’ birth).

For sake of Honesty, here' s another exerpt from that same source where Dr. O'Connor describes why he thinks Luke's story comes from a seperate source than Matthew's:

The idea that birth narratives as different as those of Matthew and Luke could go back to a common source boggles the mind. It would have been most interesting to see Mason even begin to attempt to outline the contents of such a source. Matthew, as we have seen, did not generate events on the basis of prophecy. On the contrary, he used prophecies to bring out the meaning of events otherwise attested. There is no hint that Micah 5:2 was of any importance for Luke. It is implausible, therefore, to infer that he derived his choice of Jesus’ birthplace from this prophecy. Nor did he derive it from Matthew, whose version of the childhood of Jesus he did not know. The one option left is that Luke knew it for a fact.

and Finally, as it is most appropriate here: Here is Dr. O'COnnor going on about why the Davidic Messiah is the least likely that Jesus fits.

One concluding observation: Mason claims that “establishing some kind of connection with David might have been critical for a messianic figure…in Jesus’ time.” He writes: “A birth in Bethlehem, King David’s place of origin, would naturally cement Jesus’ Jewish messianic affiliation.” But during Jesus’ lifetime, belief that he was the Messiah did not require seeing him as the son of David (and therefore did not benefit from any connection with Bethlehem). In this period, the Davidic Messiah was not the only type of Messiah hoped for. Priest, prophet and teacher figures were also expected.7 It would have been much easier for a contemporary to have fitted Jesus into any one of these categories. (Remember, his mother was related to Elizabeth, a descendant of Aaron, the first priest [Luke 1:5, 36].) None of these other messianic categories had any connection with Bethlehem. In consequence, Jesus could have been thought of as a Messiah without any reference to Bethlehem.
Furthermore, of the many different categories of Messiah, that of Davidic Messiah would have been the least likely match for Jesus in the eyes of his contemporaries. Indeed, Jesus’ behavior was the antithesis of that of a son of David, who was expected to be a warrior king who would rule with supreme authority. This hope is expressed most vividly in the first-century B.C. Psalms of Solomon:
See, Lord, and raise up for them their king, the Son of David, to rule over your servant Israel in the time known to you, O God. Undergird him with the strength to destroy the unrighteous rulers, to purge Jerusalem from Gentiles who trample her to destruction; in wisdom and in righteousness to drive out the sinners from the inheritance; to smash the arrogance of sinners like a potter’s jar; to shatter all their substance with an iron rod; to destroy the unlawful nations with the word of his mouth.8

Jesus, on the contrary, was the friend of tax collectors and sinners. He made no move against the Roman occupiers or the absentee landlords. He had no political agenda, and his compassion for the poor and disadvantaged was individual, not national. Moreover, he seems to have reacted against the idea of a royal Messiah.9
If the early church thought of Jesus in terms of Davidic messianism—and it certainly did10—it was not because of anything he said or did but because of who he was and where he came from. And he came from Bethlehem.

I'm actually likely O'Connor's writing style. I may have to read some more of him...
 
He uses appeal to authority by quoting a "famous" archeologist. We ask him for the actual primary source quote (evidence that Ramsay actually said there was a Roman census every 14 years). He has refused to provide this.

Yet, simultaneously, I quote a biblical scholar (who is christian and has no bias to disprove christianity) stating clearly that Luke made errors in the gospel, and he demands more evidence of this. I seriously don't know what more evidence I can provide than a video interview of the guy actually saying it out of his own mouth. There's no better first source evidence than that.

bolding added above and below

Sure there is better evidence then saying something out of your own mouth, it's called documentary evidence as seen below.

From the article "Luke the Historian" from the New Advent Cathloic Encyclopedia

Luke and Matthew share much of the material of the infant narrative, but Luke sheds more historical light on the subject. Many skeptics are always quite to argue that there is no histiorcal record of the Census which brought Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem. But actually there is. "Sir William Ramsay showed that, based upon the word used in Luke, Cesar Agustus laid down the requirements for an on going census not one massive poll taking. That the machinery for such an undertaking was in opporation at the time is found in the Works of Clement of Alexadria (155-220)." (Harrison P22) Evidence from Egypt shows an on going census at the time of Christ's birth whith 14 year intervals for enrollment. Birth records from the early second cnetury in Egypt indicate that the census was still in opporation and it gives us a look at the method used for organization of the census. [R.K. Harrison, Archeaology of the New Testament New York: Association Press, 1964, 23]

Harrison:

"That the machinery for such an administrative percedure was in fact opprative seems clearly indicated in the writtings of Clement of Alexandria (155-202) who recorded that it commenced with the census that was in progress at the time when Christ was born. Documentary evidence form Egypt consisting of actual census reports for enrolements in AD 90, 104, 118, 132, and suceeding years is now to hand, and it is an accredited fact that in the latter empire there was a 14 year interval between enrolments." [Harrison, p.23]

http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Bible/Luke.html

and this site gives many of the actual page numbers of archaeologist Ramsay'swritings in his 15 years of research.

http://books.google.com/books?id=wo...1uTqCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2
 
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Bolding mine:
bolding added above and below

Sure there is better evidence then saying something out of your own mouth, it's called documentary evidence as seen below.

From the article "Luke the Historian" from the New Advent Cathloic Encyclopedia

Luke and Matthew share much of the material of the infant narrative, but Luke sheds more historical light on the subject. Many skeptics are always quite to argue that there is no histiorcal record of the Census which brought Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem. But actually there is. "Sir William Ramsay showed that, based upon the word used in Luke, Cesar Agustus laid down the requirements for an on going census not one massive poll taking. That the machinery for such an undertaking was in opporation at the time is found in the Works of Clement of Alexadria (155-220)." (Harrison P22) Evidence from Egypt shows an on going census at the time of Christ's birth whith 14 year intervals for enrollment. Birth records from the early second cnetury in Egypt indicate that the census was still in opporation and it gives us a look at the method used for organization of the census. [R.K. Harrison, Archeaology of the New Testament New York: Association Press, 1964, 23]

Harrison:

"That the machinery for such an administrative percedure was in fact opprative seems clearly indicated in the writtings of Clement of Alexandria (155-202) who recorded that it commenced with the census that was in progress at the time when Christ was born. Documentary evidence form Egypt consisting of actual census reports for enrolements in AD 90, 104, 118, 132, and suceeding years is now to hand, and it is an accredited fact that in the latter empire there was a 14 year interval between enrolments." [Harrison, p.23]
None of which are primary sources.

a primary source to a quote is

THE ACTUAL PAPER THAT IT WAS QUOTED FROM!!!
or
A TRANSCRIPT FROM AN INTERVIEW WHERE THE SOURCE SAYS THE EXACT QUOTE
or (even better)
AN INTERVIEW WHERE YOU CAN SEE THE PERSON SAYING THE EXACT THING YOU ARE QUOTING.
 
Bolding mine:

None of which are primary sources.

a primary source to a quote is

THE ACTUAL PAPER THAT IT WAS QUOTED FROM!!!
or
A TRANSCRIPT FROM AN INTERVIEW WHERE THE SOURCE SAYS THE EXACT QUOTE
or (even better)
AN INTERVIEW WHERE YOU CAN SEE THE PERSON SAYING THE EXACT THING YOU ARE QUOTING.
 
You didn't read the entire second URL I gave as seen below. There are plenty of Page numbers of Ramsays works regarding this issue.
DOC, I gave you a video with the exact time when the quote was made. I even gave you a trascript of the quote.

Giving a link to the entire works of Ramsay isn't good enough. It's lazy and insultingly disrespectful on your part.


Well, getting past this little game, You are still behind the times here.

You must address TWO issues involved with why the Luke Census story is nonsense
1.) The census was in 6 AD, not during Jesus' birth.
and
2.) Jesus was born in an independant Jewish Kingdom, which wouldn't have had the Census.

So, you must prove both of these points WRONG in order to prove that Luke's census story wasn't, as a Dominican Priest said, "Complete Nonsense".

Ramsay's quote (even if it is accurate) would need to address these points to be meaningful. If the quote simply says that the Roman's did take census every 14 years, that wouldn't address points 1 or 2.
 
No. We are not going to do your homework for you. Present the primary source.
If you don't want to read the multiple page numbers of Ramsey's works that's your choice. They're all there, plenty of them. You're the one who is asking for the information. I showed you or anyone else exactly where you can find them if you're really interested.

Because of (former skeptic) Sir William Mitchell Ramsey's work this whole census thing is much ado about nothing.

ETA: I've said all I'm going to say about this off topic census thing joobz brought up. I showed everyone where to get the info about the Roman Empire census in posts 590 and 594.
 
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Because of (former skeptic) Sir William Mitchell Ramsey's work this whole census thing is much ado about nothing.
False. See above. Currently the onus is on you to disprove points 1 and 2.
Your game of avoidance only discredits your position.

ETA:
Giving a link to the entire works of Ramsay isn't good enough. It's lazy and insultingly disrespectful on your part.
 
Jesus refers to Isaiah 53 and states it was written about him.

From the article "Why did Jesus have to die?" by Michael Morrison.

"Jesus quoted Isaiah 53:12 when he said: “It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment” (Luke 22:37). Jesus, although without sin, was to be counted among sinners."

http://www.wcg.org/lit/disc/07whydie.htm

Here is Isaiah 53:12

"Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
 
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Well, you know it is a bit off topic here. I'll ask the mods to split this conversation (as it is relevant to our larger debate)
I've said all I'm going to say about this off topic census thing joobz brought up.
In other words, You are unable to refute my point.
Please note that this conversation represents a clear refutation of your habitual "Luke as a great historian" argument. Any future use of this argument will be considered an outright and fully dishonest lie.
 

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