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Merged Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby
Klimax
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
tsig
a carbon based life-form
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- Nov 25, 2005
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It's not an attack. Just trying to determine what his level of qualifications are.
The title "building engineer" was used as if it conferred some higher level of certification to his story. I am merely pointing out that the title means nothing when it comes to collapses. (although he would be the one to call if your office was too hot or too cold).
I was a building engineer(ref. tech) for ten years.
How do you know, that the seismographs did register the plane impact and not the explosions in the underground? Show me your evidences for your conclusions.
My conclusion:
We know now, that the shifting of the foundation cannot be caused by the plane impact (the shaking of the towers was just as big as during medium wind loads). Therefore the shifting was most probably caused by an explosion, exactly in time with the plane impact, in the foundation. I have a plenty of confirmed explosions from B 1 to B5. Yes - even in B 5 in the underground station (many meters away away the shafts of the elevators), we have rubble, cave-in and destroyed walls.
So it is reasonable, to ...
1. ... believe the witness account of a shifting foundation,
2. ... to see the shifting confirmed by the seismographs and
3. ... to realize the existence of explosions, which cannot be explained by the "magic fireball theory".
The planes did cause the ""Seismic Spikes""; no bombs, just planes; with some physics you could prove the intensity of the impacts at 1300 pounds and 2000 pounds of TNT KE (kinetic energy) were what they should be. But you seem bent on making up lies and not using science. So just make some junk up to sooth your paranoid conspiracy delusions.
There were no explosions from explosives on 911 because there were no blast death from high explosives, no blast effects from high explosives, and no sounds of high explosives. Plus you would see it in a "Seismic Spike". But don't let facts and reality slow down your train to fantasy-land.
The dumb part of explosives in the basement are those who said they heard them are alive; their brains should be mush but they all escaped. so now you have to add explosives the destroy buildings not people next to the blast. Does it take a special ignorance to make up the explosives lies; you did not fall for these lies did you?
Some bodies from 1000 feet sounded like explosives on 911 when they hit objects or killed other people on the ground on 911. How disrespectful can you get by making up delusional speculation on 911 with no evidence and failed opinions?
Why not read a paper by some morons on how they have proved in their paranoid delusional minds 911 was an inside job. You could use this for your failed posts to help make them more stupid if that is possible.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200609/ExplosionInTowerBeforeJetHitByFurlongAndRoss.pdf
The Seismic Spikes of the aircraft prove no explosions if you can muster up some logic and do some physics. Remember the kinetic energy of the impacts were 1300 and 2000 pounds of TNT, as big in energy as the 93 bombing. Got physics? Review; I just said the seismic spikes refute your delusions on explosives; not to mention the people not blown up in the basement.
Klimax
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
Evidence that bolded happen?
How underlined happen and how does it follows?
Bolded and underlined:Confirmed by whom?Having cherry picked witnesses and/or intentionally misrepresenting truth/evidence ? (Like claiming explosives but actually that was jetfuel explosion)
So your last points are again in the air hanging unsupported or outright debunked by posters here.
Why?Simple:
1.Is the said person engineer or other relevant expert?
2.Reading by seismograph does not imply shift of foundation.Since shift is unconfirmed therefore your argument fell apart.
And then you need to show correlation between seismograph and shift of foundation (especially timewise).
3.It is inverse:Fireball happened.But there is no evidence of explosives,either in rubble,in audio/video recordings,nor in the collapse itself and there is nothing CD-like as rubblem was over quite large area.
You'd need to show that fireball couldn't probably exist and/or couldn't cause extensive damage and I think I see there a strawman as nobody says fireball damaged structure enough to cause collapse.Long unfought fires are culprit.
And I suspect fireball was not large enough to cause foundation shift,so another possible strawman.
See for seismograph discussion:http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116572
There are many witness accounts, which tell another story. The victims were hurt by bombs (a bomb can burn), like they expressed it.
Contributed by: Edward McCabe
Contributor's location on 9/11: sub basement 4 in 1 wtc
Contributed on: July 25, 2002 B 4,
"a woman seemed unharmed and i asked her what happened..she told me a bomb blew up their offices.when we got to the PATH platform i layed the woman down ,she thanked me,and i returned to the blown door to see if i could find anyone else.Sure enough there were more,.the smoke was being sucked up the shaft now and i can see there were no longer any walls just rubble."
http://old.911digitalarchive.org/stories/details/936
Based on such accounts try to reconsider - who is living in a "fantasy-world". ... or provide answers, how the fireball could destroy, kill and harm people many meters away from shafts 6/7 and 50, and in the same time could not destroy the cars, which were in the shafts 6, 7 and 50.
You just debunked and refuted your own delusions on 911 with a simple post. I like the burn stuff; cute you propose a bomb was used to destroy the WTC and it burns someone. Cool.
Zero blast effects from high explosives; just burns. Sounds like is not the same as is.
You have the right to post lies and spread delusions on 911. You are not very good at being a skeptic; why are you at JREF?
Klimax
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
Since when witnesses are reliable and sole evidence for anything.
Since when humans do describe reality accuratly without using comparsion,smile,imagination and are not trying to fill in anything missing.
Like:"There was explosion,but cause unkown.I don't know what it was but is probable it was some kind of bomb."
Often bombs are behind blasts or there is gas pipe,but people in WTC usually knew that gas wasn't there or any other ordinary exloding thing,so they assumed it was bomb.
There are many causes of blast-like events.Any evidence ruling out them and prooving explosives?
alexi_drago
Graduate Poster
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What shaft was the smoke being sucked up?
BigAl
Philosopher
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2007
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Hyperbole metaphor and simile strikes again!. Nobody reports a literal shifting of a foundation.
The seismo congirms the lack of man-made explosion. See these links.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2001-11/agu-dtb111501.php
Before anyone brings up the possibility of some form of hush-a-boom that could destroy steel without creating a seismic signiture, I will point out that the impacts of the aircraft registered on seismographs, yet was not adequate to sever more than a few columns. There is a signal from the inititation cf collapse, and it builds gradually. The next large spikes begin to occur when debris begins hitting the ground. There is, thus, no possibility of demolitions charges, according to seismographic evidence available.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3797332#post3797332
DIscussed in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3797198#post3797198
http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC STUDY 8-06 w clarif as of 9-8-06 .pdf
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3796474#post3796474
tsig
a carbon based life-form
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alexi_drago
Graduate Poster
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What were the 10 tons of super ultra mega nano thermate fuses for then?
[/sarcasm]
Klimax
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
How can one ignore significant number of responses,is beyond me.
And I cannot find in the last three posts of yours any other questions,which where not answered.
Your complaint is withouht any merit,it is as hollowest as possible.
Read and respond to our posts with facts or don't complain if you get ignored!
Are you trusting the witness-accounts more than the studies of NIST?
I mean, NIST found out, that the shaking of the building (due to the plane impact) was not greater, than during medium winds.
In this case trust I both the witnesses, including McCabe, and NIST. The calculations of NIST in NCSTAR 1-2 showed that the towers bending due to the aircraft impacts were well within the design limits. The towers were designed to withstand hurricane force winds. But what is obvious here is that you do not understand the difference between wind pushing against the tower and the sudden impact of an aircraft. A difference that was very, very evident to the witnesses inside WTC 1.
That McCabe felt the floor shake is only reasonable given the fact that he stood on a floor only about 30 feet away from the exterior columns of WTC 1.
There is no need to move into fantasy land to explain what happened down on B4 as you do Bio.
And regarding the account of McCabe, do you understand what a simile is Bio, or do we have to explain it to you just like BBC had to explain it to Dylan Avery?
Yes the cars were destroyed, the shaft doors were blown out, the elevator car doors blown into the cars and the elevator cars were burned. How destroyed do you want them to be. The doors were the weak points, when they pop the pressure inside and outside the elevator car is equalized. If you read post #492 you would have understood that the pressure inside the shafts within seconds of the aircraft impact would have climbed to a level where some of the doors down the shaft started to blow out of the shaft or into the elevator cars. Any pressure increase would move down the shaft with the speed of sound far ahead of the jetfuel cloud itself and ahead of elevator car 50 falling down the shaft. Sometime later the remains of the oxygen starved jet fuel cloud is forced out of one or both of the elevator shaft doors down on B4, deflagrating in the corridor while increasing the pressure to a level were partition walls are toppled over. Now when I have explained this to you, maybe you now are able to understand the witness accounts from the basement levels:
Inside the North Tower: Witness Accounts, Plaza Level & Concourse Lobbies, Basements
Then it is high time to take a hard look at Gravy's excellent Truther Response Flow Chart that Gravy posted last year, and conclude that there is no progress here. Four pages have been added to this thread since it resurfaced at the beginning of this month without any sign of progress on the truther side, quiet the contrary. It is time to go to the beach instead of wasting time on incurable truthers in this thread.