The 25 fulfilled prophecies of Isaiah chapter 53

[DOC]

how is this supposed to be fulfillment of a prophecy, even if the text was more clear on the details so that it could only be a reference to JC this would be to claim that JC wasn't aware of the bible and hadn't read it, I do the same as this every week when wishing I had chosen different numbers on the lottery after I have seen the results. If a book says a saviour would rise in the east and someone reads it and then claims to be that saviour so deliberately moves to the east to support his claim, "prophecy fulfillment" isn't the term for that is it, its closer to "con" surely

Yes, but you can't will yourself to come out of a tomb and be alive and well after going through a brutal Roman crucifixion. And the fact that 11 apostles turned from uncertainty and cowardice (before the reported resurrection) into bold evangelizing martyrs who laid down their lives for Christ is some evidence for this actual Resurrection. And the huge St. Peters basilica in the heart of the former great Roman Empire would have never been built unless something caused one former cowardly apostle who denied Christ 3x's to a lone woman to have a serious attitude adjustment.

 

[Lothian]

Yes, but you can't will yourself to come out of a tomb and be alive and well after going through a brutal Roman crucifixion. And the fact that 11 apostles turned from uncertainty and cowardice (before the reported resurrection) into bold evangelizing martyrs who laid down their lives for Christ is some evidence for this actual Resurrection. And the huge St. Peters basilica in the heart of the former great Roman Empire would have never been built unless something caused one former cowardly apostle who denied Christ 3x's to a lone woman to have a serious attitude adjustment.

Any evidence that the apostles turned from uncertainty and cowardice other than the bible fable?

 

[joobz]

Yes, but you can't will yourself to come out of a tomb and be alive and well after going through a brutal Roman crucifixion.

which we have no evience for, except a story in the bible. And a story, mind you, that is so inconsistent between the gospels that it seems much more like an urban legend than a reality.

And the fact that 11 apostles turned from uncertainty and cowardice (before the reported resurrection) into bold evangelizing martyrs who laid down their lives for Christ is some evidence for this actual Resurrection.

Or it means they knew a good con when they saw it. Or it means that they were deluded cultists. Remember, you helped prove that Jesus shared many characteristics with cult leaders. The fact that the heaven's gate cult were crazy enough to castrate and kill them selves doesn't mean they were right.

And the huge St. Peters basilica in the heart of the former great Roman Empire would have never been built unless something caused one former cowardly apostle who denied Christ 3x's to a lone woman to have a serious attitude adjustment.

and disney world is evidence that Mickey mouse is real? Come on DOC, I know you don't believe this argument.


SO, now that you got these non sequitors off your chest, do you have any substantive to add to the Isaiah issue, or are we in agreement that isaiah isn't a prophecy and wasn't refering to JC?

 

[DOC]

Please forgive DOC. He hasn't really read the Bible stories about the fall of the various Jewish kingdoms.

Yes. You must not have heard of how the Jewish nation was sacked and destroyed several times...and resurrected!!!

The Jewish Nation has never been killed like Christ was killed, and thus the Isaiah prophecy regarding "he was led to his slaughter like a lamb" is more accurate pertaining to Christ than to the Jewish Nation. You must have a different definition of Jewish Nation then these Jews:

From the article: Jewish Testimony on “Are Jews a Nation?”

“I will give you my definition of a nation, and you can add the adjective ‘Jewish.’ A Nation is, in my mind, an historical group of men of a recognizable cohesion held together by a common enemy. Then, if you add to that the word ‘Jewish’ you have what I understand to be the Jewish nation.”

—THEODOR HERZL.

“Let us all recognize that we Jews are a distinct nationality of which every Jew, whatever his country, his station, or shade of belief, is necessarily a member.”

—LOUIS D. BRANDEIS
Justice of the United States Supreme Court.

“It is often said, indeed, that Judaism has no dogmas. That statement is not true as it stands.” He then states some of the dogmas, and continues—“And the Messianic Age means for the Jew not merely the establishment of peace on earth and good will to men, but the universal recognition of the Jew and his God. It is another assertion of the eternity of the nation. Dogmas such as these are not simply the articles of faith of a church, to which anybody may gain admittance by accepting them; they are the beliefs of a nation about its own past and its own future.” (p. 14.)

“For Judaism has no message of salvation for the individual soul, as Christianity has; all its ideas are bound up with the existence of the Jewish nation.” (p. 20.)


http://www.jrbooksonline.com/Intl_Jew_full_version/ij22.htm

 

[paximperium]

The Jewish Nation has never been killed like Christ was killed,..

You mean how he was not killed?

and thus the Isaiah prophecy regarding "he was led to his slaughter like a lamb" is more accurate pertaining to Christ than to the Jewish Nation.

Nope. Please read up on the history of Judea and Israel and how many times it has been destroyed, conqured etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah#Kingdom_of_Israel
Your opinion on this topic is worthless.

You must have a different definition of Jewish Nation then these Jews:

No. Same definition, I just use the proper context and not try to misquote others.

 

[DOC]

Shouldn't a prophecy be written in the future tense?

Not necessarily according to this former rabbi:

From the article "Isaiah 53" By The Late Rev. Sam Stern:

"The learned rabbis know their own rule that the writing of prophecy can refer to the past, present or future. A Biblical prophet may speak in the past tense, but the pronouncement can apply also to the future. Isaiah 53 is just this kind of pronouncement about the future—a prophecy by Israel’s greatest prophet of the coming of the Messiah to suffer and die for the sins of the world"

http://www.thechristianrabbi.org/isaiah53.htm

 

[paximperium]

Not necessarily according to this former rabbi:

From the article "Isaiah 53" By The Late Rev. Sam Stern:

"The learned rabbis know their own rule that the writing of prophecy can refer to the past, present or future. A Biblical prophet may speak in the past tense, but the pronouncement can apply also to the future. Isaiah 53 is just this kind of pronouncement about the future—a prophecy by Israel’s greatest prophet of the coming of the Messiah to suffer and die for the sins of the world"

http://www.thechristianrabbi.org/isaiah53.htm

So you get to interpret these "prophecies" whatever the hell way you want. How completely and utterly useless.

 

[joobz]

The Jewish Nation has never been killed like Christ was killed, and thus the Isaiah prophecy regarding "he was led to his slaughter like a lamb" is more accurate pertaining to Christ than to the Jewish Nation.

Just like you have a different definition of "Led to this slaughter like a lamb."

I noticed that you continue to avoid your selective use of literal and figurative so that the text may fit the Jesus story. How post hoc, ergo propter hoc of you.

You must have a different definition of Jewish Nation then these Jews:

So now you're going to link to Jewish websites?
Are you a Jew or did you finally figure out how stupid your original argument was?

 

[tsig]

Any evidence that the apostles turned from uncertainty and cowardice other than the bible fable?

Written by the apostles themselves and their friends.

 

[joobz]

Not necessarily according to this former rabbi:

From the article "Isaiah 53" By The Late Rev. Sam Stern:

"The learned rabbis know their own rule that the writing of prophecy can refer to the past, present or future. A Biblical prophet may speak in the past tense, but the pronouncement can apply also to the future. Isaiah 53 is just this kind of pronouncement about the future—a prophecy by Israel’s greatest prophet of the coming of the Messiah to suffer and die for the sins of the world"

http://www.thechristianrabbi.org/isaiah53.htm

And in a prophecy, a person can substitute any letter for any other letter, Or replace A word to mean another word. Such is the way of the mystics. Things are ever shrouded in code to confuse those who would hear the prophecy but are undeserving of it's wisdom.

Indeed, these texts probably were quite interesting to the early Christians, as they -like most cults- enjoyed having texts and lessons that contained secret messages. The Hallmark of a cult leader is creating an "in group" linkages that are strengthened through cultural secrets. Jesus stated clearly that his parables were meant to serve this purpose as he didn't want outsiders to understand him. His parables were an example of being intentionally deceitful.

 

[Foster Zygote]

If you could just take God at his word your eyes could be open too!!

Yeah, yeah, we know: "If you just choose to believe then you will believe." We've been over this before.

Of course, I you just choose to believe in Islam then you will believe in Islam. If you just choose to believe in Hinduism then you will believe in Hinduism. If you just choose to believe in Mormonism then you will believe in Mormonism. If you just choose to believe in Scientology...

The reason you believe in Christianity is because that is what you are culturally familiar with.

 

[Ladewig]

We're Jews. We're always aware of impending death, because there is always some bat-**** crazy-ass fundamentalist doing his best to exterminate us.

Can you name one?

Hold up here, DOC. I still want an explanation of what you were implying here.

 

[kmortis]

So you get to interpret these "prophecies" whatever the hell way you want. How completely and utterly useless.

Wouldn't that be cold reading writ large?


"I'm seeing a nation beginning with 'I'. Does this mean anything to anyone?"

 

[wollery]

Wouldn't that be cold reading writ large?


"I'm seeing a nation beginning with 'I'. Does this mean anything to anyone?"

Iceland?

 

[mdcatdad]

Well, in the first place they're not prophecies because Isaiah 53 refers to things that occurred in the past. Mainstream Christian theologians no longer assert that there is anything in the Old Testament that predicts Jesus. Ever notice that neither the Catholics nor the main Protestant denominations say this anymore?

You've been the victim of tendentious translations (which, we can all agree are NOT God's word because English didn't exist when the Old Testament was written!) and those who propagate your "proofs" are just retrofitting selected clauses to fit their beliefs ("lying for God")

 

[paximperium]

Wouldn't that be cold reading writ large?


"I'm seeing a nation beginning with 'I'. Does this mean anything to anyone?"

Independent Federation of Earth?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

The Inter Nation

 

[yy2bggggs]

Well, in the first place they're not prophecies because Isaiah 53 refers to things that occurred in the past.

In the second place, they aren't fulfilled prophecies because the NT refers to things that occurred in the past.

Oh, and might I just bring this up again. The gospels depict situations that no possible author could have witnessed. This should be a major problem with any theory that states that these works should be treated as historically accurate depictions of fulfilled prophecies.

 

[GeeMack]

Yes, but you can't will yourself to come out of a tomb and be alive and well after going through a brutal Roman crucifixion.

That seems like a true statement, since nobody in the history of humanity has ever done such a thing. Also, we have such an in-depth understanding of biology and human physiology that we recognize the impossibility of such an event from a purely scientific standpoint.

And the fact that 11 apostles turned from uncertainty and cowardice (before the reported resurrection) into bold evangelizing martyrs who laid down their lives for Christ is some evidence for this actual Resurrection.

Of course we don't know that such a thing really happened. But even if it did, all that goes to show is that they may have been a bunch of idiots with no sense of self preservation. There are several other rational possibilities to explain it, too. Various illnesses can cause delusions. Environmental poisons are known to cause hallucinations. The mundane possibilities are endless. The miraculous? Not so much a consideration.

And the huge St. Peters basilica in the heart of the former great Roman Empire would have never been built unless something caused one former cowardly apostle who denied Christ 3x's to a lone woman to have a serious attitude adjustment.

And the Microsoft industry would have never been built, certainly in its current incarnation, if it weren't for Bill Gates, world renowned atheist. And with his money you could probably build the St. Peter's Basilica dozens or hundreds of times over. But Bill chose to help you by working to put a computer in every home instead of building an overly adorned, nearly useless building. Therefore proving that atheism kicks Christianity's ass! What do you think of that, DOC?

 

[Elizabeth I]

And in a prophecy, a person can substitute any letter for any other letter, Or replace A word to mean another word. Such is the way of the mystics. Things are ever shrouded in code to confuse those who would hear the prophecy but are undeserving of it's wisdom.

Indeed, these texts probably were quite interesting to the early Christians, as they -like most cults- enjoyed having texts and lessons that contained secret messages. The Hallmark of a cult leader is creating an "in group" linkages that are strengthened through cultural secrets. Jesus stated clearly that his parables were meant to serve this purpose as he didn't want outsiders to understand him. His parables were an example of being intentionally deceitful.

Oooh, here, let me:

From that renowned prophetic site What Would Nostradamus Say?

Earth-shaking fire from the center of the Earth
The monster divine omen will be seen in plain daylight
They cause him to die because of his too great goodness and mildness
Nimes, Toulouse perish in water, the market to collapse​

That's prophecy-speak for "My dog has fleas."