Hamas & Israel Cease-Fire. Hamas Violates cease-fire.

[Lonewulf]

Innocent is subjective, considering they understand the basis for how their land was obtained..

...

So you wouldn't mind if someone from a local Native American tribe killed you?

 

[IDB87]

When you see me laughing at the bloodied faces of children, then I'll validate your response.

Perhaps you could explain why you think these rocket attacks are something to be laughed at?

LOL.. have you guys seen these rockets? It left a hole in the ground, and that was it? Man, they have some crappy rockets..

Surely one of these crappy rockets have left a child's face bloody?

 

[Gangularis]

...

So you wouldn't mind if someone from a local Native American tribe killed you?

I wouldn't act all shocked and surprised if it was a matter of 20 to 50 years (in some areas, less than that) since the land I'm sitting on was theirs.. and my dog shed was built over their father's grave.. no.. i wouldn't be surprised at all.. Of course I'd *mind*.. It would be inconveniencing, annoying, and scary.

Perhaps you could explain why you think these rocket attacks are something to be laughed at?

I think I already explained.

Surely one of these crappy rockets have left a child's face bloody?

Not this time. According to the reports, there were no injuries. Instead, there was a hole in the ground that looked like it had been dug out with the handle of a baseball bat. I found that momentarily humorous. I'm not laughing at the death or terror of anyone. Get over it.

 

[Lonewulf]

I wouldn't act all shocked and surprised if it was a matter of 20 to 50 years (in some areas, less than that) since the land I'm sitting on was theirs.. and my dog shed was built over their father's grave.. no.. i wouldn't be surprised at all.. Of course I'd *mind*..

Given what you said, you'd certainly deserve it, and couldn't be called "innocent", even if you did no killing yourself.

 

[Gangularis]

Given what you said, you'd certainly deserve it, and couldn't be called "innocent", even if you did no killing yourself.

Yes, I would deserve it..When you knowingly occupy land that you know was stolen.. then I don't think you can be called innocent. Forgive the crude analogy, but are you innocent if your friend hands you a candy bar that he stole from the store, and he tells you it's stolen, but you eat it anyway? That makes you, at the very least, complicit. Thus, you are not innocent.

 

[Lonewulf]

Yes, I would deserve it..When you knowingly occupy land that you know was stolen.. then I don't think you can be called innocent. Forgive the crude analogy, but are you innocent if your friend hands you a candy bar that he stole from the store, and he tells you it's stolen, but you eat it anyway? That makes you, at the very least, complicit. Thus, you are not innocent.

The penalty of which would be having your hands cut off? That would make the analogy more fitting.

 

[Gangularis]

Yeah, if the owner of the store was an Israeli, and the thief was a Palestinian, I'd agree with you. It would make the analogy more fitting, since the Israelis like to retaliate with excessive force... But since the thieves in this case are the Israelis, that application to the analogy doesn't really work.

 

[yairhol]

Yeah, if the owner of the store was an Israeli, and the thief was a Palestinian, I'd agree with you. It would make the analogy more fitting, since the Israelis like to retaliate with excessive force... But since the thieves in this case are the Israelis, that application to the analogy doesn't really work.

Wow I'm amazed at the amount of BS in a single post.
Good for you.

 

[Lonewulf]

Yeah, if the owner of the store was an Israeli, and the thief was a Palestinian, I'd agree with you. It would make the analogy more fitting, since the Israelis like to retaliate with excessive force... But since the thieves in this case are the Israelis, that application to the analogy doesn't really work.

I admit, that I do criticize the IDF for its decisions and tactics; they've certainly shot at some questionable targets in the past, and have undergone international controversy in the past.

That still doesn't mean that Hamas is justified in sending out rockets towards Israel, no matter how ineffective those rockets are (and let's face it, the only reason they haven't killed more, is because those rockets are ineffective).

This isn't a simple issue. It shouldn't be made black and white. Was Israel a bad idea or not? Well, really, I don't know; but what I do know is, "correcting" that problem by removing the Israelis will involve a LOT more strife. And continually shooting at each other will also create more strife. And picking sides instead of wanting to resolve the issue will also cause even more strife.

For me, I'm neutral. I want the fighting to stop, and a compromise to be reached. I also know that the two aren't really talking to each other (based on what my friend in the IDF said). Could they really

Should the Palestinians be blamed for Hamas being in power? I don't think so; it was a limited election, and I think that honestly, they had the choice between one kind of asshat and another. Either way, Hamas is a group that is very scary in power; I'd take Israel and the IDF over them, anyday. When Israel achieves its ideal goal, it stays where it is. When Hamas achieves its ideal goal, well, we're talking genocide here.

It's not an easy simple situation, it's not black and white, and the "bad guys" aren't clear. Yet everyone makes it out to be that way...

Still, I stay out of these debates, because I'd be labeled as an "anti-semite" very easily if I don't support them fully, or dare to suggest that the number of civilians being killed in Palestine is tragic, and could possibly be lessened through a change in tactics.

 

[yairhol]

Still, I stay out of these debates, because I'd be labeled as an "anti-semite" very easily if I don't support them fully

really? I'm not sure you're right. Try and express your ideas freely and don't let some jerks discourage you....unless you're really an anti-semite.........but I'm sure you're not.

It's not an easy simple situation, it's not black and white, and the "bad guys" aren't clear.

I'd say when you have a terroristic group terrorizing a country by constantly launching rockets at civilians it is pretty easy to determine who the "bad guys" are.
I'll give you another hint: they teach their children (starting at around the age of 3 or maybe even less) that blowing themselves up around Jewish civilians is a good thing.
Want another hint? o.k., Palestinian mothers praising god for the good luck that they've had with their sons becoming suicide bombers and that they were able to kill Jews.

Is it still not clear who the "bad guys" are?

 

[gumboot]

Yes, I would deserve it..When you knowingly occupy land that you know was stolen.

What if you were born there and it was the only home you knew?

 

[Lonewulf]

really? I'm not sure you're right. Try and express your ideas freely and don't let some jerks discourage you....unless you're really an anti-semite.........but I'm sure you're not.

I'm talking in a forum, where much of the population was convinced I was German, because I set "Eppelheim, Germany" as my location, as I'm a bit of a world traveler. Either that, or they just kept calling me German to get my ire up (which is so much more mature)... not that I would necessarily have a problem with being German, but there's this perception of, "If you're not American, you have no right to comment on America, and are totally ignorant of the American system, no matter if you came here before or not, or studied the American system on your own (because, lord knows, nothing about America has ever been publicized!)"

Wildcat has already posited the opinion that the world (except some Americans) are all anti-semite. I'm pretty sure it's going to be hard to get out of this without getting anything on me.

I'd say when you have a terroristic group terrorizing a country by constantly launching rockets at civilians it is pretty easy to determine who the "bad guys" are.

I'd also say that retaliations which include shooting at schools is morally ambiguous at best, and Israel has expanded its borders within the past few decades, which makes me wonder "why"; except maybe to get into Jerusalem, making the whole thing a bit of a holy war, which, as an atheist that's tired of holy wars, is not a positive point for me.

To me, the issue isn't so simple, as the retaliations do kill civilians. While collateral damage is a fact of war, some targets have seemed to be explicitly chosen to do the most damage to civilian numbers, which leaves me aghast.

Overall, I want to know what Israel's goals are; if it's just to protect their borders and keep what they have without expansion, then why can't they just buffer the borders? Heck, I'm practically to the point of suggesting that they just invade Gaza, if perpetual bombings don't work (hopefully the cease fire will last, but I doubt it).

I'll give you another hint: they teach their children (starting at around the age of 3 or maybe even less) that blowing themselves up around Jewish civilians is a good thing.
Want another hint? o.k., Palestinian mothers praising god for the good luck that they've had with their sons becoming suicide bombers and that they were able to kill Jews.

Is it still not clear who the "bad guys" are?

I get the "hint".

The question is, who are "they"? You're talking about Hamas, not every single Palestinian. The problem is, civilian Palestinians ARE ending up in the conflict, and I'm not entirely sure that the IDF is doing all they can to mitigate civilian casualties.

Do you have evidence that every Palestinian mother "praises god for the good luck that they've had with their sons becoming suicide bombers"? In every conflict, it's easy to demonize the opposition. I wish people here would stop falling into that trap so easily.

 

[yairhol]

The question is, who are "they"? You're talking about Hamas, not every single Palestinian. The problem is, civilian Palestinians ARE ending up in the conflict, and I'm not entirely sure that the IDF is doing all they can to mitigate civilian casualties.

Have you seen the youtube videos where Israel is aiming a missile at Hamas activists only to divert its own missiles at the last couple of seconds because civilians have been spotted near the place and may get hurt? Look it up...it's there for everyone to see.

I'd also say that retaliations which include shooting at schools is morally ambiguous at best

You make it sound like Israel is puposely hitting schools. Why don't you also mention that from these schools rockets are being fired towards Israeli towns?

and Israel has expanded its borders within the past few decades

You mean in wars where Israel's neighbouring states tried to destroy it and Israel took hold of strategic areas in order to avoid losing a future war?

Overall, I want to know what Israel's goals are; if it's just to protect their borders and keep what they have without expansion, then why can't they just buffer the borders?

This was done in Lebanon from the 80's. I was a soldier serving in Lebanon in the 90's. This idea somewhat worked against katyushas hitting Israeli northern towns but cost the lives of many many Israeli soldiers.

 

[Stout]

Should the Palestinians be blamed for Hamas being in power?
.

That's the question I'm itching for an answer to. To re phrase it, are the Palestinians victims of their own politicians ? I have no insight into this

Still, I stay out of these debates, because I'd be labeled as an "anti-Semite" very easily if I don't support them fully, or dare to suggest that the number of civilians being killed in Palestine is tragic, and could possibly be lessened through a change in tactics.

I find there's a trick to this, and that trick is to use the word Israel at all times and substitute the word Israeli when you might be tempted to use the word Jewish. After all, it is the state's actions we're discussing here and if those actions are motivated in part my an extreme right wing faction, then we should identify that faction as such. The big Z Zionism, if you will.

Anti semitism really is a red herring in this discussion, akin to shouting "RACISM" and likewise, is the sometimes strawman presented by the pro Palestinian side accusing the pro Israel side of labelling them anti-Semites for not fully supporting Israel.

 

[Lonewulf]

Well, I was peeking into another discussion, where it was said that reporters going on-site to bring pictures and video in detail were biased and "anti-semitic" because they were European... I.E., all of Europe is anti-semitic, and thus will just send out propaganda, whereas the U.S. isn't quite so much.

So naturally, I'm a bit reserved about expressing much of an opinion.

 

[Stout]

But then everything sent out by the US will be, by default, pro imperialism, colonialist propaganda ( written in all caps, with a bunch of exclamation points behind it )

The hyperbole on both sides is pretty thick, I still working on separating out the wheat from the chafe myself and it's proved to be a daunting task. I mean, I don't have a dog in this fight ( apologies to whoever I swiped that phrase off ) so I'm rot rooting for a particular team.

I'm tending toward Israel being not the evil that it's being portrayed as simply by putting myself in the position of "the average Israeli", however doing the converse, and putting myself in the position of the average Palestinian is proving to be just this side of impossible.

I'm also hesitant to jump in on these debates too, not because I'm a wuss, but because it appears we have several Middle eastern scholars posting here and compared to those, my knowledge of the situation pales by comparison.

 

[Marc39]

Do you think the Israeli government should ask for international help to assist them stopping the illegal settlement building?

But, the settlements are not illegal, unless you can provide legal proof they are. Or, is this yet another baseless charge?

 

[webfusion]

But, the settlements are not illegal, unless you can provide legal proof they are. Or, is this yet another baseless charge?

The Israeli Supreme Court has now demanded that the Government explain why there has been no action to dismantle/evacuate illegal settlements ---
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1085282.html
The outposts in question are Givat Assaf, Ma'aleh Rehavam, Givat Haroeh, Mitzpeh Yitzhar and Mitzpeh Lachish.


(In 2008), in a preliminary hearing before a single justice, the government confirmed that new houses at Ofrah were illegal, and agreed to a temporary injunction banning further construction or dwelling in the buildings.
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=a_new_legal_challenge_to_israeli_settlements



Marc39, you bumped this thread just for THAT? Why?

 

[Marc39]

The Israeli Supreme Court has now demanded that the Government explain why there has been no action to dismantle/evacuate illegal settlements ---
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1085282.html
The outposts in question are Givat Assaf, Ma'aleh Rehavam, Givat Haroeh, Mitzpeh Yitzhar and Mitzpeh Lachish.

The IDF claims the outposts are necessay for security purposes. The Israeli Supreme Court cannot overrule existing int'l law that assures Jewish settlement in the West Bank, provided, it does not infringe on others' rights.


(In 2008), in a preliminary hearing before a single justice, the government confirmed that new houses at Ofrah were illegal, and agreed to a temporary injunction banning further construction or dwelling in the buildings.
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=a_new_legal_challenge_to_israeli_settlements



Marc39, you bumped this thread just for THAT? Why?[/QUOTE]

O

 

[webfusion]

The Israeli Supreme Court cannot overrule existing int'l law that assures Jewish settlement in the West Bank, provided, it does not infringe on others' rights.

I am not a lawyer, and I have no idea what you are talking about here.
The High Court of Israel has demanded that these illegal settlements be dismantled. Are you claiming that the Israeli Supreme Court has no jurisdiction to make such a demand?