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Hamas & Israel Cease-Fire. Hamas Violates cease-fire.

gdnp said:
Let's look a bit more clearly how this works.

Let's say that a Fatah supporter fires a rocket at Israel, which lands in a field somewhere and causes no injuries.

Israel doesn't know who fired the rocket, but decide to retaliate by a "pinpoint" attack on a Hamas target. Even though Hamas did not fire the rocket.

The Israeli attack misses the target but wounds 10 bystanders: maybe Hamas, maybe civilians.

Now let's look at this from the Hamas perspective. They didn't fire the original missile. They didn't violate the cease-fire. Yet Israel tried to kill one of their guys and injured 10 bystanders. A clear violation of the cease-fire. So what would you expect them to do? Why, retaliate, of course. Why should they uphold their part of the deal if Israel isn't upholding theirs?

Soon, you are in an ever-escalating cycle of tit-for-tat strikes.

Whose fault?

Well, it's partially the fault of the Fatah member who fired the first rocket. But his goal may have been to try to provoke another confrontation between Israel and Hamas. It's partially the fault of the Israelis who retaliated against the wrong target. I'm afraid to say that the only people I would have trouble blaming in the above hypothetical scenario for the collapse of the cease-fire would be Hamas.

Israel plays this game time and time again. They allow the radicals to set the agenda and scuttle any progress for peace. They provoke responses from their enemies and then claim to be the victims when they get attacked.
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Are you suggesting that if someone fires rockets at Israel but Israel is not sure who fired then it should not do anything? Not retaliate back?
So if tomorrow 25 new groups consisting of 2 people each leave the Hamas and start firing rockets at Israel, since these groups are unknown yet and since they consist of 2 people (very small group so no big organization is needed) Israel must not retaliate? I mean Israel has zero chance of knowing who fired if it does not catch them on the act.
What about the Hamas responsiblity for its territory?
Do you think the Hamas would care if someone from the Israeli territory fired at them but the IDF would say it's not them, it's some small group of radicals?
I'd give less than half an hour until rockets start flying into Israel.

And don't give me that "Israel destroyed the Hamas' ability to stop other radical groups in operation Cast Lead" because Hamas did not do anything before the operation to stop the other groups and they have not become peace supporters with Israel suddenly now.

You're thinking somewhat naively. We've been in these situations countless times before. Israel is blamed if it protects its borders (see cease-fire violation #3 I think), Israel is blamed if it retaliates against unprovoked attacks (see all other cease-fire violations), Israel is blamed if after 3000 rockets hitting Israeli towns in a single year it decides to put an end to it etc.
I find it truly amazing that people here justify terroristic acts when they are done against Israel. No matter what Israel does, it is to blame. I'm sure that if we sat quietly and let 3000 more rockets hit Israel we would be blamed for some other things.
You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
 
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Theravingsceptic101 said:
Wait... you think Israel isn't retaliating "hard enough?" Wow..... Do you honestly think striking Hamas any harder would weaken their resolve (or stop the rocket fire)? I seriously doubt it.
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What we're trying to achieve with this is make the Palestinian people understand what they're terroristic government is doing. Let them understand that Hamas is to blame for their awful situation. Make the people get rid of their decision makers who are spending all their money on weapons and ammunition instead of building their economy and spending money on education.
 
yairhol said:
Are you suggesting that if someone fires rockets at Israel but Israel is not sure who fired then it should not do anything? Not retaliate back?
.
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Are you suggesting that if I get mugged by an asian person that I have the right to beat up some other asian people just because I'm not sure who mugged me?
 
gdnp said:
Are you suggesting that if I get mugged by an asian person that I have the right to beat up some other asian people just because I'm not sure who mugged me?
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That's a bad analogy. Really bad.
We're not dealing with individuals within one country. we are dealing with governments and state policies. Someone shooting from my own territory is my responsibility as the governement of that territory. I must do everything within my power to stop it. If I don't do that then I am as guilty as the individual who actually fired. Hamas doesn't do anything (certainly not enough) to stop those individuals firing from its own terriroty and thus is responsible.
If I were to take your analogy then I would have 10,000 individuals firing at the Hamas from Israel while saying (as the Israeli government) "I don't know who fired at you. It could have been person x or y or z or maybe not. You must not take these actions as my own and thus never retaliate against me.".
Sorry, in real life it doesn't work that way.
 
gdnp said:
Are you suggesting that if I get mugged by an asian person that I have the right to beat up some other asian people just because I'm not sure who mugged me?
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That's a stupid analogy. Even if you do know who mugged you, you still don't have a right to beat them up.

A more accurate scenario would be "If a gang of Asians surround me and someone throws a punch, do I have a right to use force to protect myself from the whole gang, or just the one that threw that punch?".
 
gumboot said:
A more accurate scenario would be "If a gang of Asians surround me and someone throws a punch, do I have a right to use force to protect myself from the whole gang, or just the one that threw that punch?".
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If I were you I wouldn't mess with an asian gang in the first place.
 
cease-fire violation #7 2.1.09

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3664761,00.html

Western Negev residents wake up to sounds of Color Red alert system, followed by explosions. One Qassam lands between two kindergartens in Eshkol Regional Council. Two hours later, Palestinians open fire at IDF force near border fence. Four mortar shells land in area several hours later. No injuries reported in all incidents
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I think I'll stop counting from now on. It's crystal clear that another cast lead operation will be understood and accepted by the international community....oh who am I kidding?
 
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Israel Air Force struck a weapons manufacturing facility near the Gaza town of Rafah
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Early Wednesday, the Air Force attacked arms smuggling tunnels on the Philadelphi Route
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More cease-fire violations by the Israelis.
 
gdnp said:
More cease-fire violations by the Israelis.
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Too bad you have to resort to lying. Smuggling of weapons is not permitted by Egypt who is supposed to keep an eye on these things.
 
yairhol said:
Too bad you have to resort to lying. Smuggling of weapons is not permitted by Egypt who is supposed to keep an eye on these things.
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Then Israel should take that up with Egypt.

Hamas did not agree not to smuggle in their unilateral cease-fire, just as Israel did not agree to reopen the Gaza border in theirs. Israeli attacks are thus as much of a cease-fire violation as Gaza rockets: more so, since the Israeli attacks are by the people who declared the cease-fire, whereas the Gaza rockets in the incidents you quote are being fired by Fatah factions, not by Hamas.

Can you reference an incident where Hamas has taken credit for a rocket fired at Israel?
 
gdnp said:
Can you reference an incident where Hamas has taken credit for a rocket fired at Israel?
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I've already addressed this before.
Hamas is responsible for ALL the violations of the cease-fire either by them, by Fatah or anyone else from within their territory. They are the elected government of the Palestinian people.
You cannot declare yourself the leader of some group of people but not take any responisiblity for their actions. This applies to all governments in the world. Including the terroristic group Hamas.
 
yairhol said:
I've already addressed this before.
Hamas is responsible for ALL the violations of the cease-fire either by them, by Fatah or anyone else from within their territory. They are the elected government of the Palestinian people.
You cannot declare yourself the leader of some group of people but not take any responisiblity for their actions. This applies to all governments in the world. Including the terroristic group Hamas.
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That assumes that Hamas is in fact in control of Gaza. A while back you were complaining that they were stealing fuel Israel was allowing in for the power plant, and taxing aid shipments. Israel will not allow the Hamas government to purchase fuel, or raise taxes to pay its employees. They killed 200 police recruits on the first day of Cast Lead.

How do you expect Hamas to police the territories without policemen or fuel for its police cars? Especially since a Hamas policeman wearing a uniform is like wearing a target saying "kill me, Israel".
 
yairhol said:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3665188,00.html
Amazing how almost the only one that understands Israel is the Palestinian leader from Fatah.
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Perhaps Abbas, the leader of Fatah, should tell this to the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, sometimes referred to as the "armed wing" of Fatah, who seem to be the ones firing the rockets.

Here's another quote from Abbas:

"If they (Hamas) want dialogue they must first recognize the PLO as the sole representative of the Palestinian people," he said.
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Huh. The PLO is the sole representative of the Palestinian people, and it is PLO radicals who are firing the rockets. Who should Israel be retaliating against?
 
gdnp said:
Through their Fatah puppets?
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It doesn't matter which organization or individual is doing the actual shooting. Hamas is the leading entity in Gaza and thus stop the attacks or at least show that they are doing EVERY possible action to stop it including call for international help if they cannot do it by themselves.
I haven't seen this happening at all. Not even slightly.
 
yairhol said:
It doesn't matter which organization or individual is doing the actual shooting. Hamas is the leading entity in Gaza and thus stop the attacks or at least show that they are doing EVERY possible action to stop it including call for international help if they cannot do it by themselves.
I haven't seen this happening at all. Not even slightly.
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International help? Do you think the Israeli government should ask for international help to assist them stopping the illegal settlement building?....they don't seem to be able to manage it themselves.
 
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