The 25 fulfilled prophecies of Isaiah chapter 53

[kmortis]

I have a simpler question

Was Jesus born?

well, that's like asking "was John born?". The answer is, invariably, "yes".


The better question is "What parts of the gospel accounts are fact and what are fiction."

That a man named "Jesus" lived in that day is a certainty.
That a man worked as an itinerant preacher is a certainty.
That a man named "Jesus" worked as an itinerant preacher is probable.
That a man named "Jesus" raised anyone from the dead is highly improbable.
That a man named "Jesus" was crucified is probable.
That he then came back to life is highly improbable.

The one place that DOC is correct is that the majority of Biblical scholars (of whatever theological stripe) are convinced that Jesus lived in the approximate time frame covered in the gospels.

If the rest of the accounts are accurate, on the other hand, are debatable.

 

[paximperium]

You have a mental condition, which makes you unable to perceive any information that contradicts your pre-conceived notions. (I don't even know if such a condition is documented in the DSM; I'm just feeling charitable today.)I don't know which it is, and I doubt you do, either.

Narcissistic personality is characterized by behavior or a fantasy of grandiosity, a lack of empathy and a need to be admired by others. Narcissistic personality has a pathological unrealistic or inflated sense of self-importance, has an inability to see the viewpoints of others, and is hypersensitive to the opinions of others.​

ONSET: Early adulthood and with a variety of contexts.​

Diagnostic Criteria ( DSM-IV™ ) made easy.​

1. Behavior or a fantasy of grandiosity, a lack of empathy and a need to be admired by others. As indicated by at least five of the following:​

1. Grandiose sense of self-importance.
2. Fantasies of and preoccupied with beauty, brilliance, ideal love, power, or unlimited success.
3. A belief of being special and unique and can only be understood or a need to associate with people of high status.
4. A need for excessive admiration.
5. An unreasonable expectation of being treated with favor or excepting an automatic compliance to her / his wishes.
6. Will use others to achieve her / his goals.
7. Lacks empathy.
8. Believes others are envious of her / him or is envious of others.
9. Contemptuous or haughty attitudes / behaviors.

http://psyweb.com/Mdisord/jsp/napd.jsp

 

[I Ratant]

Hey, I got 8 of the 9!

 

[DOC]

William Ramsey said that Paul could be considered a great historian as long as you ignored all the supernatural stuff he came out with.

I will leave you to guess which part of that Doc tends to leave out when he quotes him.

If you want a link I can dig it out, I provided it in the "lack of evidence for the new testament" thread,

I wasn't aware Sir William Mitchell Ramsay said Paul was a great historian also. I know this famous archaeologist said this about Luke, the author of Acts and the Gospel of Luke.

From the book Examine the Evidence by Ralph Muncas page 274:

Quote from Sir William Mitchell Ramsey:

"Luke is a historian of the first rank- this author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians".

 

[Hokulele]

I wasn't aware Sir William Mitchell Ramsay said Paul was a great historian also.

Lovely. Now what exactly does that have to do with Isaiah?

 

[Lothian]

I wasn't aware Sir William Mitchell Ramsay said Paul was a great historian also. I know this famous archaeologist said this about Luke, the author of Acts and the Gospel of Luke.

From the book Examine the Evidence by Ralph Muncas page 274:

Quote from Sir William Mitchell Ramsey:

"Luke is a historian of the first rank- this author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians".

Yes, it was the people who wrote Luke not those who wrote Paul, my mistake.

Anyway shall we look at the quote again.

You may press the words of Luke in a degree beyond any other historian’s, and they stand the keenest scrutiny and the hardest treatment, provided always that the critic knows the subject and does not go beyond the limits of science and of justice.

 

[DOC]

I agree. But it does not follow that we have any sort of evidence on the matter. We just know about the ChristIANS, not the guy himself.



That's dishonest. You add "christ" (0) and "christians" (10) together to get your number "10". Well, that's okay. I'm sure I could do the same for other religions.



So claims the bible.



So claims the bible.



Idem.



Says who ? Josephus ? Or Eusebius ?



Again, bible.



Same....



Boring...



Thing...



What they believe is irrelevant.



Irrelevant.



Islam has spread far from Mecca and Medina.



So ? God's worshippers began worshipping the golden calf, didn't they ?


In short, you have NO evidence, whatsoever. How surprising.

We're talking about it 2000 years later, and the pope is all over the news, how is that for evidence. And people are always asking for non-Christian sources - well they got them, 10 of them. Sorry there are no photos but there are 24,000 manuscripts compared to 7 for Plato, and 20 for the Roman Historian Tacitus.

 

[Lothian]

the pope is all over the news, how is that for evidence.

Yes I was reading yesterday how the latest line from the Vatican is that he was not a member of Hitler youth while in his autobiography he said he was. Anyway why is this relevant.

 

[zooterkin]

We're talking about it 2000 years later, and the pope is all over the news, how is that for evidence. And people are always asking for non-Christian sources - well they got them, 10 of them. Sorry there are no photos but there are 24,000 manuscripts compared to 7 for Plato, and 20 for the Roman Historian Tacitus.

24,000? It was 10 only a few post ago.

 

[DOC]

What a lazy person you must be, I could find at least a hundred quotes about Thomas Jefferson and Xianity and never once have to go to such a pathetic lame wad site.

Yeah, but how many of the sites have quotes of Jefferson saying, "I am a real Christian" along with a photo of his signature.

 

[joobz]

We're talking about it 2000 years later, and the pope is all over the news, how is that for evidence.

terrible.

And people are always asking for non-Christian sources - well they got them, 10 of them.

No. We don't have 10 non-christian sources. We have you CLAIMING there are 10 non-christian sources. That's a different thing.

Let me put it more bluntly, I don't beleive you.
I don't trust you to be honest.
I need to see primary sources from you before I'm willing to accept any statement of your's as fact.

 

[kmortis]

Yeah, but how many of the sites have quotes of Jefferson saying, "I am a real Christian" along with a photo of his signature.

yeah, cause getting a picture of TJ's signature is sooooooo difficult.

 

[DOC]

This is just ignorant beyond belief, burden of proof falls on those who wish to show that Jesus was the messiah.

You took my statement totally out of context. I was replying to someone who implied that there were Jewish websites that had archaeological evidence that Jesus was not the Messiah.

 

[Cleon]

Yeah, but how many of the sites have quotes of Jefferson saying, "I am a real Christian" along with a photo of his signature.

"I am a Muslim. There is no God but God and Muhammed is his Prophet."

 

[DOC]

24,000? It was 10 only a few post ago.

I never said there were 10 manuscripts. There is a about 24,000 ancient manuscripts of New Testament writings.

 

[Hokulele]

I never said there were 10 manuscripts. There is a about 24,000 ancient manuscripts of New Testament writings.

Lovely. And what exactly does this have to do with Isaiah?

 

[joobz]

You took my statement totally out of context. I was replying to someone who implied that there were Jewish websites that had archaeological evidence that Jesus was not the Messiah.

And Hokulele had presented you with your request.
She even presented the context that you requested, explaining that without a temple, the messiah prophecy isn't fulfilled. Since there was no temple, there is no messiah.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

I never said there were 10 manuscripts. There is a about 24,000 ancient manuscripts of New Testament writings.

Yes, if ancient means up to the 9/10th century or even yet later. Those 24K also include 7K or 8K of Latin Vulgate manuscripts. Here is a list of Greek manuscripts along with date and content:
http://www.earlham.edu/~seidti/iam/table_gkmss.html

I am not sure what this is supposedly evidence of.

 

[DOC]

No. We don't have 10 non-christian sources. We have you CLAIMING there are 10 non-christian sources. That's a different thing.

Let me put it more bluntly, I don't beleive you.
I don't trust you to be honest.
I need to see primary sources from you before I'm willing to accept any statement of your's as fact.

Well here is 9, they left out Seutonius which makes 10. If you want eyewitnesses you have to go to the bible. This is logical because if someone was an eyewitness it is probable they would become a Christian. If they were an eyewitness and didn't believe in Jesus, why waste valuable (for that time) writing materials on someone you don't believe in.

http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMN...dence_for_Jesus_from_NonChristian_Sources.htm

http://www.evidenceandanswers.org/articles/Jesus in Ancient NonChristian Sources.pdf

 

[Hokulele]

So, we are done discussing Isaiah?